Are Taliban servants or an independent group?

[Chelsea-Fan]

One senior (U.S.) intelligence analyst told me, "The request was made by Musharraf to Bush, but Cheney took charge—a token of who was handling Musharraf at the time. The approval was not shared with anyone at State, including Colin Powell, until well after the event. Musharraf said Pakistan needed to save its dignity and its valued people. Two planes were involved, which made several sorties a night over several nights. They took off from air bases in Chitral and Gilgit in Pakistan's northern areas, and landed in Kunduz, where the evacuees were waiting on the tarmac. Certainly hundreds and perhaps as many as one thousand people escaped. Hundreds of ISI officers, Taliban commanders, and foot soldiers belonging to the IMU and al Qaeda personnel boarded the planes. What was sold as a minor extraction turned into a major air bridge. The frustrated U.S. SOF who watched it from the surrounding high ground dubbed it "Operation Evil Airlift." Another senior U.S. diplomat told me afterward, "Musharraf fooled us because after we gave approval, the ISI may have run a much bigger operation and got out more people. We just don't know. At the time nobody wanted to hurt Musharraf, and his prestige with the army was at stake. The real question is why Musharraf did not get his men out before. Clearly the ISI was running its own war against the Americans and did not want to leave Afghanistan until the last moment."
Descent into Chaos by Ahmed Rashid

[graveyardofempires]

any videos of this?

[Michin Khel]

I think afghans are ashamed of the fact that paki ISI is sponsering talibans in afghanistan. I think talibans in afghanistan is an independant group but they are seeking help from pakistan. Many pashtuns in KP are recruited by talibans who works for ISI. My two Kiliwals cousins died last year when they were bombarded by US. One of my school time classfellow, who is now a talib, was arrested by police for having large amount of guns and explosives in his house..but after 3 days he was released..he told me that intelligence agencies ordered police to do so...i asked him a very important question, whether baitullah mehsud works for ISI, he said big no. He said to me that they have strictly warned waziri talibans to never operate in lakki marwat.

[Afghanistan2010]

Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan , a single group run by Mullah Umar and his Shoura Council.

Pakistani mostly led by Jalaludin and his Commanders aswell eastern Sector(Paktia,Nangrahar,Paktika,Khost).

Taliban does not seek help from ISI , they carried out some brazen attacks on ISI facilities in Pakistan.

Taliban have contacts to local tribal leaders in NWFP that help them to secure money,save passage,local security from TTP,and men from lar aw bar.

[Chelsea-Fan]

Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan , a single group run by Mullah Umar and his Shoura Council.

Pakistani mostly led by Jalaludin and his Commanders aswell eastern Sector(Paktia,Nangrahar,Paktika,Khost).

Taliban does not seek help from ISI , they carried out some brazen attacks on ISI facilities in Pakistan.

Taliban have contacts to local tribal leaders in NWFP that help them to secure money,save passage,local security from TTP,and men from lar aw bar.

It´s an ISI game. Why not a single Pakistani general to day is not killed? Mullah Omar is non-existent. He is a myth. I saw a picture where Mullah Omar was shown as Hamid Gul with an exact explanation. The fact that even the highest Taliban commanders have never seen Mullah Omar and only spoke with him through a mobile phone should tell you who behind the person Mullah Omar is hiding. The ISI is a very clever network. They organized the Bombey attacks, the play with the NATO and US and everyone know that but they can not accuse them really since all quite evidences are not there! ISI played a game against earlier Afghan governments and it will still play. The ISI is not a Taliban group. It´s members are well educated.

[Afghanistan2010]

Should i list the names of the porki soldiers,generals that have been killed in the last 2 years there are more than 8 000 Soldiers , Police , Tribal dogs...and others.

Mullah Omar (hz) is real my son if you want to meet him go to Helmand he is leading the Taliban in daily actions.

May the Taliban of Pakistan and Afghanistan wipe out ISI and all its supporters and those who adhere to nationalism and are haters of them.

[KingKhan]

I think afghans are ashamed of the fact that paki ISI is sponsering talibans in afghanistan. I think talibans in afghanistan is an independant group but they are seeking help from pakistan. Many pashtuns in KP are recruited by talibans who works for ISI. My two Kiliwals cousins died last year when they were bombarded by US. One of my school time classfellow, who is now a talib, was arrested by police for having large amount of guns and explosives in his house..but after 3 days he was released..he told me that intelligence agencies ordered police to do so...i asked him a very important question, whether baitullah mehsud works for ISI, he said big no. He said to me that they have strictly warned waziri talibans to never operate in lakki marwat.

Luffy bro,

Are the Wazir Talibs, different from the Mehsud ones? You said that Baitullah/ Hakimullah does not work for ISI, but how and why does the Waziri Taliban listen to the ISI when they said never operate in Lakki Marwat?

[Michin Khel]

Luffy bro,

Are the Wazir Talibs, different from the Mehsud ones? You said that Baitullah/ Hakimullah does not work for ISI, but how and why does the Waziri Taliban listen to the ISI when they said never operate in Lakki Marwat?

by waziri i actually meant waziristani. There are several factions in TTP, cant say how they are related to each other. My lakki marwat is bordering north waziristan , one time our district was plagued by talibans from waziristan. They started abducting people for ransom against which marwats formed their tribal lashkars and chagha parties. If you read my post carefully i never said TTP listen to ISI, the talibans in KP dont shout that they work for agencies. He was my friend so thats why he told me his links with agencies otherwise they dont depicts themselves as people working for ISI. May be both type of talibans listen to each other, i dont know about it.

[KingKhan]

That is very confusing. Hopefully next summer, i will visit my family in Peshawer and could talk to them about it.

How's medical school going?

[Michin Khel]

alhamdulilah my medical studies is fine. why your family members in peshawer would know of talibans and ISI link?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

One senior (U.S.) intelligence analyst told me, "The request was made by Musharraf to Bush, but Cheney took charge—a token of who was handling Musharraf at the time. The approval was not shared with anyone at State, including Colin Powell, until well after the event. Musharraf said Pakistan needed to save its dignity and its valued people. Two planes were involved, which made several sorties a night over several nights. They took off from air bases in Chitral and Gilgit in Pakistan's northern areas, and landed in Kunduz, where the evacuees were waiting on the tarmac. Certainly hundreds and perhaps as many as one thousand people escaped. Hundreds of ISI officers, Taliban commanders, and foot soldiers belonging to the IMU and al Qaeda personnel boarded the planes. What was sold as a minor extraction turned into a major air bridge. The frustrated U.S. SOF who watched it from the surrounding high ground dubbed it "Operation Evil Airlift." Another senior U.S. diplomat told me afterward, "Musharraf fooled us because after we gave approval, the ISI may have run a much bigger operation and got out more people. We just don't know. At the time nobody wanted to hurt Musharraf, and his prestige with the army was at stake. The real question is why Musharraf did not get his men out before. Clearly the ISI was running its own war against the Americans and did not want to leave Afghanistan until the last moment."
Descent into Chaos by Ahmed Rashid

Let me tell you where I find your logic lacking:

1) You attempt to state that the whole of the Taliban apparatus is either pure ISI or plaqued by having to rely on ISI. You will have to explain how any legitimate resistance movement, even a secular one, were it to arise, would fight a war without arms. Let us say, for the same of theory, that such a group, made up of Afghans purely in Afghanistan were to arise. Let us go further and say that this group had only Afghan interests at heart. So where do they get arms from in your scenario? Do they take 10 years, learn the art of weapon making... do they get funding and buy arms from Der Adam? What it distills down to is that your answer will be: They need not take up arms... they should participate in the secular Karzai government and accept a constitution that would allow them to eventually realize their goal. You would still have to provide historical evidence of the US ever leaving a country that it accomplished its goals in. To this day, bases exist in Japan and along the Korean DMZ line. Moreover, they are itching to stay in Iraq.

So if you are trying to put people into corners because they utilize arms from outside powers and using "gotcha" logic you just look plain foolish. No wars in the modern era in the third world could ever be fought then and no super power could ever be faced down based on your logic. You need to provide an alterate route through which a legitimate resistance could arm itself.

Moreover, the cross border Pashtun links might very well make it easier for these groups to access Pakistani arms, weapons, etc.

You have to provide evidence, as does Mostafa, that these movements are executing Islamabad's policies. The evidence exists to the contrary:

http://www.institute-for-afghan-stud...urand_line.htm

In this article, it is stated that the Taliban refused to recognize the Durand line.

So what your rhetoric boils down to is that there is "Us" and "them (Taliban)" and you dont like them because they do not agree with you. Great, glad to see you are open about it... but it wont matter because they could care less about you circular logic and will continue to fight you.

2) You have to prove that the Karzai government or any of the choices you offer are more in harmony and resonate with the rural Pashtun masses than do the Taliban. The evidence is contrary to your thesis. You however have not produced such documentation. I will provide the following for your perusal and let you think about it (this is written by an anti Taliban Afghan historian by the way):

"In reality, the traditional way of life in villages has changed little by Taliban's rule. The situation of Afghans in the countryside controlled by the Taliban has improved because of increased peace and security, giving them the opportunity to rebuild after two decades of war."

http://www.institute-for-afghan-stud...ntro_kakar.htm

3) Regarding people blowing themselves up and utilizing assymetric tactics. Take a look at the Tamil Tigers and the history of other insurgency movements such as the early Chinese independence movements to oust the foreign powers out of China. Dr. Barkawi describes it well:
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth...424785830.html

"Asymmetric warfare is the result of conflict between the powerful and the powerless, reinforcing a cycle of violence."

These tactics are like the rape victim using her nails to scratch at her attacker. Suicide bombs and the death of Sikhs were rarely happening, if at all prior to the US intervention in Afghanistan.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/mo...ews-for-sikhs/

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/...ertain-future/

You chide the Arabs for utilizing Afghanistan as a base twice for fighting a Jihaad against two superpowers. You forget that there is another side to this equation. The two supers are this other side. What business did they have invading Vietnam, Cambodia, the Istaans, interfering in Iran, Iraq, setting up bases in Saudiyaa?

Your solution, of killing off the users of assymetric dirty tactics is like giving Aspirin to a septic patient with a horrible bacterial infection that really needs antibiotics. It makes no sense and only is a temporary fix (best case scenario)... or worst case scenario, it proves you that you want to deprive the people to their inalienable right to self determination as to what sort of rule the want over themselves.

So from now on, spare me the swan song about Taliban blowing up kids and women and children. Show me a Talib blowing himself up pre US invasion and show me when the rate of such violence escalated. Show me that you understand that western interventionalism and her allies are the septic nidus.

[faye]

One senior (U.S.) intelligence analyst told me, "The request was made by Musharraf to Bush, but Cheney took charge—a token of who was handling Musharraf at the time. The approval was not shared with anyone at State, including Colin Powell, until well after the event. Musharraf said Pakistan needed to save its dignity and its valued people. Two planes were involved, which made several sorties a night over several nights. They took off from air bases in Chitral and Gilgit in Pakistan's northern areas, and landed in Kunduz, where the evacuees were waiting on the tarmac. Certainly hundreds and perhaps as many as one thousand people escaped. Hundreds of ISI officers, Taliban commanders, and foot soldiers belonging to the IMU and al Qaeda personnel boarded the planes. What was sold as a minor extraction turned into a major air bridge. The frustrated U.S. SOF who watched it from the surrounding high ground dubbed it "Operation Evil Airlift." Another senior U.S. diplomat told me afterward, "Musharraf fooled us because after we gave approval, the ISI may have run a much bigger operation and got out more people. We just don't know. At the time nobody wanted to hurt Musharraf, and his prestige with the army was at stake. The real question is why Musharraf did not get his men out before. Clearly the ISI was running its own war against the Americans and did not want to leave Afghanistan until the last moment."
Descent into Chaos by Ahmed Rashid

the indian spies reported this event and the indian government was really angry as they claim that some of the taliban and al quada were taken to kashmir. there is a video but whether it is of the actual event or footage pasted together, not sure. in the video it claims that america had many opportunities to get osama, but didn't and let them, and some of those who went on the planes, escape to pakistan.

[afghan]

even the highly level taliabn never denied paki involvement but on this forum many will deny it. taliban very clearly said they are getting help from pakies.

[khushal]

I think afghans are ashamed of the fact that paki ISI is sponsering talibans in afghanistan. I think talibans in afghanistan is an independant group but they are seeking help from pakistan. Many pashtuns in KP are recruited by talibans who works for ISI. My two Kiliwals cousins died last year when they were bombarded by US. One of my school time classfellow, who is now a talib, was arrested by police for having large amount of guns and explosives in his house..but after 3 days he was released..he told me that intelligence agencies ordered police to do so...i asked him a very important question, whether baitullah mehsud works for ISI, he said big no. He said to me that they have strictly warned waziri talibans to never operate in lakki marwat.

First, there is no shame in getting help from someone.

Second, this stems from mutual interests, there is mutual help. The ISI interests lies with the Taliban in the Talibans goals of repelling the foreign invaders by giving the Taliban a safe haven and the Taliban helps the ISI of curbing Indian interests from its north western border. The ISI does look at the Taliban as a threat in the distant future but at the moment the greater threat is Indian interests from its northwest border.
At the same time millions of dollars are flowing from the Sunni Arab states to the Taliban. Same thing here, there are mutual interests. The money from the Arab states help the Taliban with their goals and the Taliban helps the Sunni Arab states by containing Iranian interests from spreading westward. They are independent since they are fighting their own war. The Guns in their own hands are shooting at US soldiers.

Karzai on the other hand has no independence since US soldiers is fighting his battle. He is incapable of being independent since he has no guns of his own shooting at the Taliban.

[Afghanistan2010]

even the highly level taliabn never denied paki involvement but on this forum many will deny it. taliban very clearly said they are getting help from pakies.

any sources,proofs,evidence ?.