The Insurgency & the ISI

[khushal]

^^^
This is your opinion, provide sources. What you described is their relationship to the NA. Your thinking of the Pashtuns as one people. This is a tribal society, each tribe thinks of itself as independent and only thinks of its own interests. There are conflicting Tribal interests at hand, its almost like your dealing with multiple nations vs. one people or one nation.

Why is Iran so successful in using the Taliban as toys but America with more leverage, resources and the best intellectual talent in the world unable to use them as toys. Most of you have got it backwards. You are under the impression that resistance is ignorance and submission is for the wise.

[graveyardofempires]

iran helped america invade Iraq and afghanistan.
the pro shia Sadr gang helped america massacre sunni civilians and aremed opposition.
In Afghanistan Northern Alliance was used to help america invade Afghanistan.

taliban isi connection is a lie such as taliban iranian connection.
its all part fo the game to deflect the attetion and de legitimize the resistance and portraying them as being influenced by foreign elements.
so now the invaders are actually calling legitimate resistance foreign invaders and the ones who helped invade(Iran and pakistan)playing the game along.

they even said that american soldiers were getting killed in iraq by iranian made weapons blahblahblah now they are saying the same about Afghanistan.

[randolph85]

^ so there was no mujahadin-cia connection in the 80s?

[ScimitarXEdge]

give us sources.
Iran already has the NA in their pockets. The Karzai administration is more loyal to Iran than America and so is the Iraqi administration.

Report: Iran pays $1,000 for each dead U.S. soldier - World news - South and Central Asia - Afghanistan - msnbc.com

[ScimitarXEdge]

give us sources.
Iran already has the NA in their pockets. The Karzai administration is more loyal to Iran than America and so is the Iraqi administration.

U.S.: Iran Transferring Weapons To Taliban - CBS News

[ScimitarXEdge]

^^^
This is your opinion, provide sources. What you described is their relationship to the NA. Your thinking of the Pashtuns as one people. This is a tribal society, each tribe thinks of itself as independent and only thinks of its own interests. There are conflicting Tribal interests at hand, its almost like your dealing with multiple nations vs. one people or one nation.

Why is Iran so successful in using the Taliban as toys but America with more leverage, resources and the best intellectual talent in the world unable to use them as toys. Most of you have got it backwards. You are under the impression that resistance is ignorance and submission is for the wise.

I don't argue the notion that resistance is submission; I'm saying that the main body of the Taliban; aren't really resisting, they're being used as proxies.

[graveyardofempires]

^ so there was no mujahadin-cia connection in the 80s?

yes they was,what is the point?

[unknownprince]

I don't argue the notion that resistance is submission; I'm saying that the main body of the Taliban; aren't really resisting, they're being used as proxies.

Who gives a rats ass what Pakistan, Iran, China, Russia want? So who cares if they want to see America out of Afghanistan? All the better.

Afghans want to see Americans getting kicked out.

THATS ALL THAT MATTERS

[ScimitarXEdge]

Pakistan doesn't want America out, if anything they want to extend the war indefinitely to maintain a lifeline; War is a cash cow for Pakistan, why would they want their greatest benefactor to stop?

Iran does want America out, but not because they want the liberation of every Muslim for the sake of Islam, but they too want regional influence

and China want their own hegemony of course

just as Mostafa suggested , if we look at the whole issue criticallly and objectively, we won't find the Story that Mostafa or Taliban propagandists want to portray.

The ISI funding/supplying supporting then Taliban is no secret, as Khushal said it's long been known. So this "breakthrough" that Mostafa seems to have come upon is a bit over sensationalized.

to say that ISI and Pakistan are the sole motivators of Insurgency is disingenuous and deceptive.

Similarly to imply that all Insurgents are Taliban or even supporting the Taliban is also disingenuous and intellectually dishonest.

The Insurgency itself has many shades and very complex dynamics

you have your mainline Taliban, these guys are purely nothing but Wilful ISI stooges, whatever the ISI's agenda is they will perform. Even ex Taliban commanders such as Noor al Aziz Agha and associates admitted that the main reason they left the Taliban was because essentially Pakistan was dictating running the show and advocating killing of Pashtun elders. These people are IDEOLOGICALLY Taliban; they promote all the crippling conceptual junk that the Taliban promotes which has little to nothing to do with Islam or Pashtunwali, all to keep society incapacitated. They dont want liberation but rather perpetual dependence. Hence to claim they're "insurgents" is intellectually dishonest.

Then you have what might be referred to as "Rank and File" Taliban; these guys are primarily Pashtuns and many Non-Pashtuns, generally sincere Muslims, who have either had their heart strings plucked because of their devotion to Islam or they are fed up with degeneracy propagated by the Farangay occupiers and their cronies and therefore sincerely see themselves occupied by an Infidel army. Hence their natural tendency is to ally themselves with other Muslims who they believe share their struggle. Often these guys are misinformed and are often manipulated to do heinous things under deceptive justifications which tend to harm fellow Muslims i.e. suicide bombings, or misguided assassinations.Although I do not always believe all of such types can be motivated to do such things. Similarly there are many others of these guys who are in fact very well informed and know exactly why and what their objectives are, but realize due to logistical limitations they have to cooperate with whereever they can get sufficient weapons, funds, training etc etc. Such people are not treacherous but only doing what is Logical given their conditions.

Then you have people who have nothing at all to do with the Taliban, either ideologically or practically. These guys come in all shapes and sizes, some motivated by Islam, some motivated by sheer Pashtun Pride or even Pashtun bigotry since they see that the superficial Pashtun figurehead under the domination of Non-Pashtuns. And also many sincere Muslims of all walks of life who shun the Talibans vision but dont want the Imperial Hegemonic one which you find secularists and Western cronies such as Toramana generally advocating.

Regardless of what their motives or background the general policy of the current Imperial Agenda is to label them all Taliban or sympathetic to the Taliban; when this isn't true.

The Middle body "Rank and File" are the majority, while the Mainline Taliban and Other groups are the outlyiers

this is why in my debates with Mostafa; I rejected the intellectual merit that the the Insurgency itself was somehow without a significant public base of support; for a more nuanced and Sincere understanding knows that Insurgency is not necessarily synonymous with Taliban, and the large volumes of rank and file Taliban demonstrates there is support for the INSURGENCY but not necessarily the Taliban themselves. And also why I disregarded his "far enemy near enemy" dichotomy as misguided.

Similarly; there's the taliban apologists and contigency; who similarly want to falsely portray the Insurgency and taliban as identical movements. They will often tout Wikileaks and other selectively chosen sources; Ignoring that even Wikileaks has released cables regarding the ISI connection to the Taliban movement

and this is why it is crucial to draw lines ...because we have to separate wheat from chaff and at the same time not discard the baby with the bath water by disaffecting LEGITIMATE Insurgency ..with Pakistani ISI stooges like the Mainline Taliban leadership.

And yes it does matter who and why something is being supported; Afghans do in fact have the right to resist, even if America never set foot in Afghanistan, the Imperial Convoyance is detrimental to justice everywhere and should be opposed by everyone until it no longer exists. That however doesnt mean that Pakistan's stake in supporting insurgence meritable nor does it mean that America is the "far enemy"

[khushal]

Report: Iran pays $1,000 for each dead U.S. soldier - World news - South and Central Asia - Afghanistan - msnbc.com

Ive seen those reports. Those reports have no merit since the Government of Iran gives hundreds of million of dollars yearly to the Afghan government to build infrastructure. It is more reasonable to asses that those reports are put out there to have legal recourse to sanction Iran which the US is having trouble with.
Heres something that has more merit.
Iran and the Future of Afghanistan - Council on Foreign Relations
But experts disagree on whether the Iranian government is directly involved. Some have refuted Gates' remarks and say the weapons could have been smuggled into Afghanistan via various third-party channels. Others suggest they are being supplied by hard-line components within the Iranian Revolutionary Guards (the Mashhad-based Fourth Corps is responsible for projecting Iranian power in Afghanistan (PDF)), which has a separate agenda from the Iranian foreign ministry, which in turn has a separate agenda from Iran's business community. "We're talking about rogue elements," Col. Christopher Langton, a senior fellow at the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies, told CFR.org in 2006, "maybe even cross-border organizational criminal groupings." He said that arms factories in Pakistan's North West Frontier Province make copies of the weapons made in Iran.

This paragraph is more in tune with Iranian interests:

But Iranian cultural and economic expansion continues apace. Iranian radio broadcasts fill the airwaves, Iran-funded road and building projects are under way, a new teacher training center is planned for Kabul, and a Herat-Khaf rail link (Pajhwok) is being constructed to connect Afghanistan and Iran by train. Iran has also offered humanitarian aid to Kabul in the form of fuel and transport--as much as $500 million since 2001, according to the U.S. Congressional Research Service. CFR's Rubin, who has spent years as a journalist in Afghanistan, says Shiite Afghans are better off financially than most of their counterparts because of aid from Tehran.

Why would Iran want to get rid of their own puppet:
BBC News - Karzai confirms report of cash payments from Iran


Conclusion:
Iran is the last country on Earth that would want the Taliban back running Kabul.

[unknownprince]

Afghans have always resisted and brought down empires. Nothing will change and nothing is ever going to change.

If the West wants to destroy their own economies by waging a failed war of aggression against people that will never tolerate them, then that is their fault.

They are sponsoring terrorist outfits like Blackwater to commit terror against the world.

They can take their plans and shove it up their stinking filthy ass.

What a nice thing to see, the destruction of CAPITALISM.


China is the new BOSS, and the WORLD IS HAPPY.

There will be a new era of world peace.

[unknownprince]

It matters not that the whole SCO (Russia, China, and others) and Iran, Pakistan, and nearly all other nations want to see the US out.

It only matters that Afghans want to see them OUT,.


THATS ALL THAT MATTERS. THATS ALL THAT HAS ONLY MATTERED>

THE AFGHANS DID NOT GIVE A RATS ASS when they MASSACRED the British back in the 1800's. They didn't give a rats ass that Russia wanted them out, and Ottomans wanted them out.

Is that clear?

[khushal]

to say that ISI and Pakistan are the sole motivators of Insurgency is disingenuous and deceptive.

Similarly to imply that all Insurgents are Taliban or even supporting the Taliban is also disingenuous and intellectually dishonest.

The Insurgency itself has many shades and very complex dynamics

you have your mainline Taliban, these guys are purely nothing but Wilful ISI stooges, whatever the ISI's agenda is they will perform. Even ex Taliban commanders such as Noor al Aziz Agha and associates admitted that the main reason they left the Taliban was because essentially Pakistan was dictating running the show and advocating killing of Pashtun elders. These people are IDEOLOGICALLY Taliban; they promote all the crippling conceptual junk that the Taliban promotes which has little to nothing to do with Islam or Pashtunwali, all to keep society incapacitated. They dont want liberation but rather perpetual dependence. Hence to claim they're "insurgents" is intellectually dishonest.

Then you have what might be referred to as "Rank and File" Taliban; these guys are primarily Pashtuns and many Non-Pashtuns, generally sincere Muslims, who have either had their heart strings plucked because of their devotion to Islam or they are fed up with degeneracy propagated by the Farangay occupiers and their cronies and therefore sincerely see themselves occupied by an Infidel army. Hence their natural tendency is to ally themselves with other Muslims who they believe share their struggle. Often these guys are misinformed and are often manipulated to do heinous things under deceptive justifications which tend to harm fellow Muslims i.e. suicide bombings, or misguided assassinations.Although I do not always believe all of such types can be motivated to do such things. Similarly there are many others of these guys who are in fact very well informed and know exactly why and what their objectives are, but realize due to logistical limitations they have to cooperate with whereever they can get sufficient weapons, funds, training etc etc. Such people are not treacherous but only doing what is Logical given their conditions.

Then you have people who have nothing at all to do with the Taliban, either ideologically or practically. These guys come in all shapes and sizes, some motivated by Islam, some motivated by sheer Pashtun Pride or even Pashtun bigotry since they see that the superficial Pashtun figurehead under the domination of Non-Pashtuns. And also many sincere Muslims of all walks of life who shun the Talibans vision but dont want the Imperial Hegemonic one which you find secularists and Western cronies such as Toramana generally advocating.

Regardless of what their motives or background the general policy of the current Imperial Agenda is to label them all Taliban or sympathetic to the Taliban; when this isn't true.

The Middle body "Rank and File" are the majority, while the Mainline Taliban and Other groups are the outlyiers

this is why in my debates with Mostafa; I rejected the intellectual merit that the the Insurgency itself was somehow without a significant public base of support; for a more nuanced and Sincere understanding knows that Insurgency is not necessarily synonymous with Taliban, and the large volumes of rank and file Taliban demonstrates there is support for the INSURGENCY but not necessarily the Taliban themselves. And also why I disregarded his "far enemy near enemy" dichotomy as misguided.

Similarly; there's the taliban apologists and contigency; who similarly want to falsely portray the Insurgency and taliban as identical movements. They will often tout Wikileaks and other selectively chosen sources; Ignoring that even Wikileaks has released cables regarding the ISI connection to the Taliban movement

and this is why it is crucial to draw lines ...because we have to separate wheat from chaff and at the same time not discard the baby with the bath water by disaffecting LEGITIMATE Insurgency ..with Pakistani ISI stooges like the Mainline Taliban leadership.

And yes it does matter who and why something is being supported; Afghans do in fact have the right to resist, even if America never set foot in Afghanistan, the Imperial Convoyance is detrimental to justice everywhere and should be opposed by everyone until it no longer exists. That however doesnt mean that Pakistan's stake in supporting insurgence meritable nor does it mean that America is the "far enemy"

You also forgot to mention there is a lot of criminal elements such as drug dealers, kidnap for ransom gangs, and also extortionists that hijack construction projects. There are even criminal gangs that get paid by NATO forces in return for not attacking them.

You have to remember when the Taliban regime collapsed, the same criminal enterprise returned to fill in the void like it was before the Taliban. Much of the violence against the civilians is done by the criminal enterprise who are connected to and pay off government officials much like it was before the Taliban and that environment gave rise to the Taliban much like it is doing today. This is the reason why the Taliban are successful in creating a shadow government.

[khushal]

I don't argue the notion that resistance is submission; I'm saying that the main body of the Taliban; aren't really resisting, they're being used as proxies.

We are not certain if the main body of the Taliban would be running Afghanistan if the Americans leave because things have changed so much. Currently all the resistance groups have one common goal and that is to take NATO out by force, after that, it is likely they will turn their guns on each other and eventually one group will take over just like it happened during the 90's, it will be bloody.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Ive seen those reports. Those reports have no merit since the Government of Iran gives hundreds of million of dollars yearly to the Afghan government to build infrastructure. It is more reasonable to asses that those reports are put out there to have legal recourse to sanction Iran which the US is having trouble with.
Heres something that has more merit.
Iran and the Future of Afghanistan - Council on Foreign Relations
But experts disagree on whether the Iranian government is directly involved. Some have refuted Gates' remarks and say the weapons could have been smuggled into Afghanistan via various third-party channels. Others suggest they are being supplied by hard-line components within the Iranian Revolutionary Guards (the Mashhad-based Fourth Corps is responsible for projecting Iranian power in Afghanistan (PDF)), which has a separate agenda from the Iranian foreign ministry, which in turn has a separate agenda from Iran's business community. "We're talking about rogue elements," Col. Christopher Langton, a senior fellow at the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies, told CFR.org in 2006, "maybe even cross-border organizational criminal groupings." He said that arms factories in Pakistan's North West Frontier Province make copies of the weapons made in Iran.

This paragraph is more in tune with Iranian interests:

But Iranian cultural and economic expansion continues apace. Iranian radio broadcasts fill the airwaves, Iran-funded road and building projects are under way, a new teacher training center is planned for Kabul, and a Herat-Khaf rail link (Pajhwok) is being constructed to connect Afghanistan and Iran by train. Iran has also offered humanitarian aid to Kabul in the form of fuel and transport--as much as $500 million since 2001, according to the U.S. Congressional Research Service. CFR's Rubin, who has spent years as a journalist in Afghanistan, says Shiite Afghans are better off financially than most of their counterparts because of aid from Tehran.

Why would Iran want to get rid of their own puppet:
BBC News - Karzai confirms report of cash payments from Iran


Conclusion:
Iran is the last country on Earth that would want the Taliban back running Kabul.

The answer to your question is

You're presenting a false dichotomy; we said Iran wants to break America's regional threat to their hegemony, not that they want to have them as a Government

when you look at things from that lense then it makes perfect sense as to why Iran would send millions of dollars to "invest" in a cowering Karzai who's benefactors are not dependable and then pay gullible Talibs some cash to fight the Americans.

You can't just discredit news reports just because it doesn't "make sense" to you; because albeit the propaganda game is being played, it is being played from both ends and therefore the Mainline Taliban and their Benefactors have their own propaganda.

Iran believes that it can control the "Taliban problem" because if the Taliban were to turn guns on Iran, since Iran is not bound by any rules of engagement and would just engaging in genocide.

And as your link says, supporting the Taliban isn't the issue for Iran; it's securing their chunk of Afghanistan, the Taliban because of their impulsive based drive and lack of nuanced comprehension, will leap on it, regardless of consequence.

But I digress; however your links actually fit perfectly into the explanation I gave and Also the evidence of Taliban getting Iranian support,.