US-led raid kills 16 Afghan civilians

[MostafaM]

I understand; what I'm saying is your argument doesn't debunk the article

Do you understand that?

I wasn´t about to "debunk" the article as I mentioned it in my first reply. The bombing could have happened.

I just stated that Press TV, Iran and their media war against Afghanistan is subtile war of influence. The last six sentences of that article prove that.

[MostafaM]

according to several experts (Mathews Hoh, Dr. Scheuer), there would be no resistance in Afghanistan without support from the Afghan people, so your suggestion is not only absurd and false, but it reveals that you are pro-war on Afghan slave. stop lying here. Everyone can see what you are.

Resistance to foreigners is nothing new or imposed. Pashtuns have always resisted foreigners. Mirwais neka kicked the Persians out, and Wazir Akbar Khan massacred the British Army.

Resistance to foreigners is as natural as eating food you farsiwaan ****.

Mirwais Neeka fought with an Afghan army against invaders, with Afghan weapons and with an Afghan mind.
Wazir Akbar didnt beg the Russians or Iranians for guns to kill the British soldiers....do you get the point, Paki janey?

[MostafaM]

Not always; for example VietKong resistance against the Americans was supported by the Soviets.

In fact more often than not, Anti-Imperial resistance has often been a mixture of both Grassroots Support and External Support sympathetic to grassroots causes.

The American Revolution against England for example was supported by oth European Financers.

True!

But the Vietcong didnt cross the Vietnames-Chinese border every time to hit and run. They had their power bases inside the Vietnames communities who hide them in tunnels under their own villages.

They were with the people and the people were with them.

I do not see that with the Taliban.

The usage of suicide bombers shows clearly that they cannot operate freely in residential areas without being tipped off.
They have to resort to single-point attacks and they cross the imaginary border to do that.

[unknownprince]

Mirwais Neeka fought with an Afghan army against invaders, with Afghan weapons and with an Afghan mind.
Wazir Akbar didnt beg the Russians or Iranians for guns to kill the British soldiers....do you get the point, Paki janey?

First of all, calling another Pashtun a paki is a very Northern Alliance thing to do. It is usually done by ethnocentric people who hate Pashtuns, and want the Durrand line to remains. Food for thought for you Are you meaning to say that Pashtuns lack the intelligence to obtain their own weapons and financial support?

. Keep this false narrative to yourself and your Kabul circle.

Half of Paksitan is Pashtun land you ****.
It belongs to all Pashtuns.

The Durrand line means nothing . Go and kiss Saleh and AA's ass

[ScimitarXEdge]

And the close relation between Pashto and Bactrian and Awesta?

Where did Pashtuns come from?

Did their language, culture and habits drop from the sky when Arabs, who spoke a semitic language with NO connection to Pashto or any other language in the region, arrived there?

Let me hear your explanations.
Herodotus´"Pactues" and there area of settlement called "Pactycia" doesn´t seem to be enough for you.....

Like I said close relation between Bactrian and Avestan is not a smoking gun

You should talk to a forum member named Scythian about "Pactues" and "Pactycia" he's a student of Linguistics; According to Linguists; these are examples of what are called "False Cognates", which is when words which are taken to "sound" the same or "similar" are taken to be identified as being the same. But this is a weak argument because while they may bear phonetic similarity; in reality they have Different Etymology which would mean theyr'e unrelated.

A perfect example would be the word "Shaghalai" in Pashto, in Farsi "Shaghal" means Jackal. Farsi and Pashto are both Iranic languages. Also consider that the "Kha" dialect of Pashto is much younger than the "Sha" dialect of Pashto. So if Herodatus met Pashtuns ; then they would be "Pashtyans" rather than "Pactyans" that is if "Pactyans" have anything to do with Pashtuns to begin with.

It is more likely that Pashto developed later probably branched from some sort of Intermediate language like Soghdian.

[MostafaM]

Are you meaning to say that Pashtuns lack the intelligence to obtain their own weapons and financial support?

. Keep this false narrative to yourself and your Kabul circle.

Half of Paksitan is Pashtun land you ****.
It belongs to all Pashtuns.

The Durrand line means nothing . Go and kiss Saleh and AA's ass

An insurgency/ a resistance movements needs: food, shelter, training, ammunition, weapons from AK-47 to heavy machine guns and RPGs.

I am not sure but I definitly sure that the only weapon´s production capabilities that Pashtuns have in the Tirah Valley cannot supply a movemment of atleast 15000 fighters.

If the Durand Line means nothing, why do you have to cross it to be save everytime you attack?

[unknownprince]

True!

But the Vietcong didnt cross the Vietnames-Chinese border every time to hit and run. They had their power bases inside the Vietnames communities who hide them in tunnels under their own villages.

They were with the people and the people were with them.

I do not see that with the Taliban.

The usage of suicide bombers shows clearly that they cannot operate freely in residential areas without being tipped off.
They have to resort to single-point attacks and they cross the imaginary border to do that.

You have never been to Southern or Eastern Afghanistan. You are from the North, and have keep retorting their ethnocentric hyped false version of events that seeks to deny the Afghans right to self-defense.

You go to Southern or Eastern Afghanistan, you go to Waziristan and Mohmand, you will see that people are all opposed to the US war there. You don't know anything about Quetta, so I don't know where in Afghanistan your from. Most people in Quetta and the surrounding districts are migrants who migrated from places within Afghanistan proper. The vast majority are Pashtun. You have nearly all Pashtun tribes there plus the native tribes like Qasi- all in all it is a Muslim stronghold/ Pashtun stronghold.. But you would not know this because you...

So quit your delusional talk because you will only end up becoming more disappointed.

Wishful-thinking never did anyone good.

[ScimitarXEdge]

True!

But the Vietcong didnt cross the Vietnames-Chinese border every time to hit and run. They had their power bases inside the Vietnames communities who hide them in tunnels under their own villages.

They were with the people and the people were with them.

I do not see that with the Taliban.

The usage of suicide bombers shows clearly that they cannot operate freely in residential areas without being tipped off.
They have to resort to single-point attacks and they cross the imaginary border to do that.

That's not moot point though; and large reason for that is because the fighting area was on the Border of South Vietnam; not North Vietnam. the Historical demographics of Northern Pakistan make it historically Pashtun inhabited and thereby a natural point of convergence; where as for Vietkong going to China wouldn't be a natural point of convergence.

The Usage of Suicide Bombers is an indication that they have poor weapons and planning and are also just misguided by Wahhabist doctrines about Martyrdom; not that they get tipped off. Because if what you're saying was true; Then Insurgents would not be able to infiltrate Military and Police forces; This is only possible if there is a large degree (not necessarily majority, but even 30%) of local support.'



Furthermore Vietkong had similar types of Kamikaze-like fighters; look for yourself

http://www.army.mil/professionalWrit...05/4_05_3.html

Later, suicide bombings took place in the Vietnam War. The Viet Cong utilized sappers (demolition commandos) who would carry or wear satchel charges. These individuals would purposefully blow themselves up to destroy U.S. and Republic of Vietnam equipment and fortifications.

[MostafaM]

Like I said close relation between Bactrian and Avestan is not a smoking gun

You should talk to a forum member named Scythian about "Pactues" and "Pactycia" he's a student of Linguistics; According to Linguists; these are examples of what are called "False Cognates", which is when words which are taken to "sound" the same or "similar" are taken to be identified as being the same. But this is a weak argument because while they may bear phonetic similarity; in reality they have Different Etymology which would mean theyr'e unrelated.

A perfect example would be the word "Shaghalai" in Pashto, in Farsi "Shaghal" means Jackal. Farsi and Pashto are both Iranic languages. Also consider that the "Kha" dialect of Pashto is much younger than the "Sha" dialect of Pashto. So if Herodatus met Pashtuns ; then they would be "Pashtyans" rather than "Pactyans" that is if "Pactyans" have anything to do with Pashtuns to begin with.

It is more likely that Pashto developed later probably branched from some sort of Intermediate language like Soghdian.

Soghdian?
Possible. But still pre-islamic!
And that was your point, wasn´t it?

Pashto has stron connections to languages that are only spoken by very few people today in the Pamir region: Khwarezmian.
The research that has been done on this topic is interesting. I would suggest you read the book by Prof. Morgenstierne about Pashto vocabulary.
"A new etymological dictionary of Pashto"

Your example with Farsi is not understandable.
Farsi is a sout-western Arian and Pashto a south-eastern language. You may try to locate ancient Fars sattrapy on an ancient map.

Awesta, Bactrian, Khwarezmian, Soghdian etc. were north-eastern languages of the Arian languages.

[MostafaM]

You have never been to Southern or Eastern Afghanistan. You are from the North, and have keep retorting their ethnocentric hyped false version of events that seeks to deny the Afghans right to self-defense.

You go to Southern or Eastern Afghanistan, you go to Waziristan and Mohmand, you will see that people are all opposed to the US war there. You don't know anything about Quetta, so I don't know where in Afghanistan your from. Most people in Quetta and the surrounding districts are migrants who migrated from places within Afghanistan proper. The vast majority are Pashtun. You have nearly all Pashtun tribes there plus the native tribes like Qasi- all in all it is a Muslim stronghold/ Pashtun stronghold.. But you would not know this because you...

So quit your delusional talk because you will only end up becoming more disappointed.

Wishful-thinking never did anyone good.

The discussion is NOT about being opposed to this imposed war.

The discussion is about WHY getting by American bombs is so much worse for traitors like you than being killed by Iranian, Pakistani or Russian bombs.

Sense has to strike your brain to see that you are mere a proxy.

What I am stating here is to be able to end this situation of being used by EVERYONE around you.

[unknownprince]

An insurgency/ a resistance movements needs: food, shelter, training, ammunition, weapons from AK-47 to heavy machine guns and RPGs.

I am not sure but I definitly sure that the only weapon´s production capabilities that Pashtuns have in the Tirah Valley cannot supply a movemment of atleast 15000 fighters.

If the Durand Line means nothing, why do you have to cross it to be save everytime you attack?

Matthew Hoh


Matt Hoh, a former Marine speaks about the return of the Taliban.

History tells a different story. The conflict is very complex, multi-dimensional and goes back three decades. In 2001–02 we installed a government in Kabul headed by Karzai. In doing this, we backed one side in a long civil war—the more progressive-secular and urban camp, Tajiks, Uzbeks and Hazaras, and some Pashtuns and those who live in the north and west. But it excluded one-third of Afghans, the rural, religious, traditional camp, who are Pashtuns in the south and east—which include the Taliban—whose forerunners we backed in 1980s, against the Soviets.
So we create a government that rewards one side and excludes the other. So there are cracks in the political order we created. This gets much worse in 2005 or 2006, when we decided extend the government’s power into southern and eastern Pashtun areas. At the same time, various elements of the Taliban and other insurgent factions had strengthened and returned into parts of Afghanistan.The push went badly, since villagers rebelled, turning to the Taliban to get rid of the outsiders. And so the cycle began. We add more troops, which strengthens the Taliban and weakens support for the government. Suicide attacks, IEDs, military and civilian dead or wounded—all rise commensuratelywith eachincrease in foreign troop or Afghan government presence. We misunderstand many ofthecauses of support for the Taliban. They didn’t wear sandwich boards or hand out pamphlets to win people. They are the Pashtuns. Most don’t want to rule the country. They just want to get rid of the occupiers.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Soghdian?
Possible. But still pre-islamic!
And that was your point, wasn´t it?

Pashto has stron connections to languages that are only spoken by very few people today in the Pamir region: Khwarezmian.
The research that has been done on this topic is interesting. I would suggest you read the book by Prof. Morgenstierne about Pashto vocabulary.
"A new etymological dictionary of Pashto"

Your example with Farsi is not understandable.
Farsi is a sout-western Arian and Pashto a south-eastern language. You may try to locate ancient Fars sattrapy on an ancient map.

Awesta, Bactrian, Khwarezmian, Soghdian etc. were north-eastern languages of the Arian languages.

Yeah Soghdian was pre-Islamic; but SOGHDIAN IS NOT PASHTO.

So you cannot say Pashtuns have a pre-Islamic culture; you can say the ancestors to Pashtuns have a pre-Islamic Culture. Pashtun culture as far as we know is a mix of Pre-Islamic heritage AND Islamic Heritage. There seems to be a fusion which could have been what eventually evolved into Pashtuns; But I don't say that as a fact, but it is a reasonable explanation given the evidence we have.

The Farsi example is understandable; it means that COGNATES which are things which have "similar sounds" doesn't necessily mean the same thing; which shows that something that says "pactyan" or "Pactues" doesn't necessarily indicate

Also Farsi comes from Pahlawi, which comes from Avestan; so they would have same roots if Pactues was in reference to Pashtuns.

It's funny that you mention it because Morgensteime is the one who mentions that the Pactyan thing is a false cognate. So if you read his book you'd know this already.

[MostafaM]

That's not moot point though; and large reason for that is because the fighting area was on the Border of South Vietnam; not North Vietnam. the Historical demographics of Northern Pakistan make it historically Pashtun inhabited and thereby a natural point of convergence; where as for Vietkong going to China wouldn't be a natural point of convergence.

The Usage of Suicide Bombers is an indication that they have poor weapons and planning and are also just misguided by Wahhabist doctrines about Martyrdom; not that they get tipped off. Because if what you're saying was true; Then Insurgents would not be able to infiltrate Military and Police forces; This is only possible if there is a large degree (not necessarily majority, but even 30%) of local support.'



Furthermore Vietkong had similar types of Kamikaze-like fighters; look for yourself

http://www.army.mil/professionalWrit...05/4_05_3.html

Your point about sout Vietname even proves what I said: they had their harbours within the people. The highly mobile Taliban squads on their motorbikes cross the border, stay some nights in the open and fight on known terrain without having the backing of the people like during the fight against the USSR.

That was the reason why the Red Army carpet bombed large areas of southern and eastern Afghanistan to depopulate them so that the resistance couldn´t find refuge there.

Todays insurgency is far away from being the people´s army.

The can get every weapon they want. There MOBILITY hinders them to use heavy weaponry and guerilla warfare is NOT about confronting a regular army with a smaller regular army but with mobile forces with light weaponry in pin-point attacks.

The use of suicide bombers clearly shows the inability to use guerilla tactics in areas where security is tight AND the people are not welcoming them as liberators. I am sure that a suicide bomber who attacks soft targets is not as heroic as the mujahedin were in the 80s in the eyes of the common people.

Infiltrating an army and police that has shortages of cadets and needs people to fulfull fighting capabilities will always get infiltrated by the enemy. Thats not a valuable arguement here.

[MostafaM]

Yeah Soghdian was pre-Islamic; but SOGHDIAN IS NOT PASHTO.

So you cannot say Pashtuns have a pre-Islamic culture; you can say the ancestors to Pashtuns have a pre-Islamic Culture. Pashtun culture as far as we know is a mix of Pre-Islamic heritage AND Islamic Heritage. There seems to be a fusion which could have been what eventually evolved into Pashtuns; But I don't say that as a fact, but it is a reasonable explanation given the evidence we have.

The Farsi example is understandable; it means that COGNATES which are things which have "similar sounds" doesn't necessily mean the same thing; which shows that something that says "pactyan" or "Pactues" doesn't necessarily indicate

Also Farsi comes from Pahlawi, which comes from Avestan; so they would have same roots if Pactues was in reference to Pashtuns.

It's funny that you mention it because Morgensteime is the one who mentions that the Pactyan thing is a false cognate. So if you read his book you'd know this already.

Are you out of your mind?
Are you familiar with Pashtunwali?
Do you really think that Pashtun heritage is in accordance with Islam?

But first thanks that you stated that Pashto is a pre-islamic language and has strong connections to regional languages. Languages are spoken by people and if those people lived there prior to Islam, then yes, Pashto as culture and heritage is pre-islamic.

Morgenstiernes dictionary doesn´t state that.

[unknownprince]

It is beyond absurd to suggest that the people from Helmand in the South to Paktia and Kunar in the East are not opposed to the US occupation. It is also absurd to attribute the Afghan opposition to the US occupation to Pakistan. When you use common sense, there is support every where against the US war.

Now about the Durrand line that you keep going on about.

Logically speaking, why should someone recognize this false line? What would Sun Tzu say?

Please use common sense. All Afghans can cross that line as they do not recognize it.

so what exactly are you trying to say.

Vietnam had backing from China and Russia in terms of military support. Arms shipments would regularly come from China and Russia. Does that invalidate their resistance?

NO.