Jinnah and co

[khushal]

here he is worrying about the poor people while smoking.


here he is creating an islamic nation:

[faye]

what utter stupidity. you young people are the ones to work to improve things, to make the world better, to try to make some peace. think of the people in afghanistan that have now been living under all those years of turmoil, oppression and hardships.
so what are you lot doing to make things different?
crapping on about old sh**!!!
how many photos of jinnah have been put up onto this forum? how can you silly men be bothered to even go to the internet for such useless accomplishments as to continue spinning the hate?
most of you live in the west, have had an education and look where you have gone with what you have learned.
education and democracy is wasted on morons.

[hamid954]

Hes a freemason!

[Afghanistan2010]

Sufi Mohammed was asked to enter another room from his prison cell,he refused,they asked for the reason,he said : "there is a picture of Jinnah,how can i enter such a room.

[haviZsultan]

Recently a khorasani guy from tajikam.com joined defence.pk and he opened a thread in which he started speaking non-sense against all pashtuns, calling them terrorists, donkies , cave-monkies etc and told members that pakistanis and tajiks are natural allies,



they should finish pashtuns in afghanistan while pakistan should do the same in their own country. I did'nt take that clown seriously, but to my surprise all pakistanis welcomed him, agreed with his views , only advising him to tone down his langauge...none of them condemned his bakwas against pashtuns. Only me and an afghan were defending pashtuns there, the "desified pathans" were quiet and pakistanis were smirking in amusement....


its not just a clown but reality , ALL of northern alliance samte shamal was supported by isi and napak state , just to topple pashtun or let us say pro afghan goverments .

they just forgett about their napaki daal eater buddies , when they founded others who would do the job better aka talibans .

one would consider the trash talk and barking just as amusement , but its deep rooted prejudice and propaganda into their brains .

all this crap which come out of this punjabi dirt bag , must be brought into his brain along the line .

and the reason why this shakal is howling is because he can not stand history and facts , and thats why he has to bark .

Well even the Pakistani Pashtuns are going to get frustrated with their Afghan counterparts after they treat us like British garbage.

Listen closely. The Pakistani Pashtun and the Pakistani state as a whole has always been supporting you from the Soviet war to the current war. He is a shoulder upon which you Afghans could always lean on. But instead of leaning on his shoulder you are actually trying to crack his shoulder-bone with an axe. This is what the Pakistani Pashtun thinks. He has given you hospitality and you are trying to break his country apart.

So if the Afghan Pashtun doesn't want us to work with the Tajik the he better respect us and our choice to be Pakistani.

That includes our leaders such as Jinnah. Frankly I loved the Afghan too before this. I respected the Afghan Pashtun. Pakistan's policy has always leaned on strengthening the Afghan Pashtun. I cannot even begin to explain why and saying Northern Alliance was supported by Pakistan instead of India is distortion of history! Plus no matter what the Tajik said no one will want to destroy the Pakistani Pashtun as we are a part of Pakistan. We control government and military and eventually everything when Imran Khan comes to power

And please, you kicked afghanis_hehe out. You won, okay? I don't know what you did but you won.

But now since hes gone don't you think its horrible to kick someones who's lying on the road after a car accident. Whos every bone is broken? For godsake the guy can't even reply in his countries defense. You even took that right from him.

Its surprising how far some of you can stoop to. You never respected Pakistan. At least be an honorable adversary and disagree respectfully.

[faye]

i guess it is the honourable pashtun muslim way, to dishonour the dead.

if one wants to play with oneself over history, as is the useless preoccupation of some here, one could blame the muslim invasions into india for the eventual creation of pakistan, lol.

[haviZsultan]

killing muslims in bahrain:
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fea...048574888.html

This would have sparked a very interesting debate if your only purpose hadn't been to abuse Pakistan.

I did not know that Pakistani forces were used in Bahrain and it would be very interesting discussing the causes, Pakistans role and interference in another country (which I have always been against etc) and Bahrains role in killing its own people.

Plus look at the topic. How is this related to Jinnah? I know people shout foul about defence.pk here but their justice is swift as the sword of Umar bin Al Khattab... if this off-topic nonsense had been taking place there they would close the thread and probably send the poster packing or give him a warning.

[randolph85]

hahahaha @ a delusional paki nationalist forum's "justice" being as swift as omar's sword. please don't drag great islamic hero's through the mud.

[R3SISTANC3]

what utter stupidity. you young people are the ones to work to improve things, to make the world better, to try to make some peace. think of the people in afghanistan that have now been living under all those years of turmoil, oppression and hardships.
so what are you lot doing to make things different?
crapping on about old sh**!!!
how many photos of jinnah have been put up onto this forum? how can you silly men be bothered to even go to the internet for such useless accomplishments as to continue spinning the hate?
most of you live in the west, have had an education and look where you have gone with what you have learned.
education and democracy is wasted on morons.

Ironic that you defend a hate mongerer like Jinnah against hate. His Pakistan is created around hate towards cow urine drinking, monkey worshiping, infidel Hindus. Is it not poetic justice that the man who justified division of India based on hate and fear mongering today is hated and his ideology feared by the 3 largest minorities within Pakistan?

democracy.....in reference to a nation that is alive and breathing thanks to 60 years of military dictatorship. Where civilian leaders are hanged and assassinated in open day light.

[faye]

you young people regurgitating the past and indulging in these hate campaigns is totally of no use to man nor pis*ing beast.
it is amazing that you can misinterpret my comment to such a degree.
spending energy and time hating a dead guy is an utter waste.
the point of power is NOW... for the future.

BTW, my 'infidel' hindu friends, are very kind and loving people.

[haviZsultan]

Ironic that you defend a hate mongerer like Jinnah against hate. His Pakistan is created around hate towards cow urine drinking, monkey worshiping, infidel Hindus. Is it not poetic justice that the man who justified division of India based on hate and fear mongering today is hated and his ideology feared by the 3 largest minorities within Pakistan?

democracy.....in reference to a nation that is alive and breathing thanks to 60 years of military dictatorship. Where civilian leaders are hanged and assassinated in open day light.

I admit that the textbooks of Pakistan has made a mockery of the reasons why we formed Pakistan in the first place and make us sound like religious bigots instead of people who were forced into a position where they could do little else. Also dictatorial rule and corrupt governments have hollowed out our position greatly.

If you look at Jinnah's early speeches you will notice that not once he called for an independent Pakistan. Only in the 1940's did he vaguely start referring to a homeland for Muslims and in 1945 calling for an independent Pakistan directly. Jinnah always wanted to be with a united India but he led us on an independent path when he had no choice. Lets not forget that Jinnah was called the ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity by both Sarojini Naidu and Gokhale (Hindus themselves):

Gokhale that year honoured Jinnah with a phrase that has travelled through time: it is 'freedom from all sectarian prejudice which will make him (Jinnah) the best ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity'.

Pakistanis had no choice but to go for freedom. India didn't accept a single one of our demands... all we wanted was some guarantee, some form of commitment that our lives would be protected in a united India, that Hindus would not dominate us and their laws, their religion would not come to rule us, and we would be free to follow our religion.

People don't know how many demands were made before freedom which were turned down by the Indians... none of which demanded freedom. We just wanted autonomy and an equal share of resources. And of course the right for Muslim majority provinces to govern themselves. India did not understand that giving rights was better than seeing a broken India.

It is difficult for Afghans to comprehend the problems we were facing because Afghans are bred to view Pakistan as a kaffir state. Their hatred for Jinnah and Pakistan spurs them forwards. Before eating dinner they curse Jinnah.

But a small example will suffice. An example of Indian intolerance towards us was the cow slaughter ban, a law imposed on Muslims that banned the slaughter of cows (still exists in India). Now any Muslim knows that during Eid it is the duty of every Muslim to slaughter a cow. Its a sacred rite. If cows are holy to you then protect them and do whatever you do with them but please don't take our right to eat them... its actually in our religion.

Proof of Jinnah's secularism and goodwill towards minorities is here (Though most Pakistanis refuse to agree Jinnah was secular-As I said a Wahabi culture has been imposed on us):

Today being 11th August Day has a great significance in Pakistan’s history. 60 years ago, Mr. Jinnah, Pakistan’s undisputed Quaid-e-Azam, Governor General and elected President of the Constituent Assembly elaborated his vision for the future of Pakistan.
Jinnah’s vision is unambiguous.

1. The state would be completely impartial to religion of the individual.
2. The state where every citizen would be equal and there would be no distinction between citizen on the basis of faith or caste or creed.

A lot of controverey has emerged about this speech. Any student of political science would tell you that is the classic exposition of a modern secular democratic state. However, the issue of whether this constitutes a “secular” state or an “Islamic” state is besides the point. A rose by any name is after all a rose.


Here is what Mr. Jinnah said on that fateful day. It is worth reading in the full:

I know there are people who do not quite agree with the division of India and the partition of the Punjab and Bengal. Much has been said against it, but now that it has been accepted, it is the duty of every one of us to loyally abide by it and honourably act according to the agreement which is now final and binding on all. But you must remember, as I have said, that this mighty revolution that has taken place is unprecedented. One can quite understand the feeling the exists between the two communities wherever one community is in majority and the other is in minority. But the question is whether it was possible or practicable to act otherwise than has been done. A division had to take place. On both sides, in Hindustan and Pakistan, there are sections of people who may not agree with it, who may not like it, but in my judgment there was no other solution and I am sure future history will record its verdict in favour of it. And what is more it will be proved by actual experience as we go on that that was the only solution of India’s constitutional problem. Any idea of a United India could never have worked and in my judgment it would have led us to terrific disaster. May be that view is correct ; may be it is not; that remains to be seen. All the same, in this division it was impossible to avoid the question of minorities being in one Dominion or the other. Now that was unavoidable. There is no other solution. Now what shall we do? Now, if we want to make this great State of Pakistan happy and prosperous we should wholly and solely concentrate on the well-being of the people, and especially of the masses and the poor. If you will work in co-operation, forgetting the past, burying the hatchet you are bound to succeed. If you change your past and work together in a spirit that every one of you, no matter to what community he belongs, no matter what relations he had with you in the past, no matter what is his colour, caste or creed, is first, second and last a citizen of this State with equal rights, privileges and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make.
I cannot emphasize it too much. We should begin to work in that spirit and in course of time all these angularities of the majority and minority communities the Hindu community and the Muslim community-because even as regards Muslims you have Pathans, Punjabies, Shias, Sunnis and so on and among the Hindus you have Brahmins, Vashnvas, Khatris, also Bengalis, Madrasis, and so on-will vanish. Indeed if you ask me this has been the biggest hindrance in the way of India to attain the freedom and independence and but for this we would have been free peoples long long ago. No power can hold another nation, and specially a nation of 400 million souls in subjection ; nobody could have conquered you, and even if it had happened, nobody could have continued its hold on you for any length of time but for this. Therefore we must learn a lesson from this. You are free ; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed-that has nothing to do with the business of the State. As you know, history shows that in England conditions some time ago were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some State in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days when there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one state. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the Government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today you might say with justice that Roman Catholic and Protestants do not exists ; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen, of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation.
Now, I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.

Many have alleged that this was the only time he expressed such a vision. Unfortunately, these people are not very well versed with the life and work of Quaid-e-Azam Mahomed Ali Jinnah, who was after all a staunch secular Indian nationalist for most of his life and had turned to the Pakistan idea only after exhausting all the options for a United India.
Here are some of his other statements regarding what kind of Pakistan he wanted:
25th October 1947. Interview with Reuters’ Duncan Hooper note: not to be confused with his interview with Reuters’ Doon Campbell which has been quoted in detail else where.

Minorities DO NOT cease to be citizens. Minorities living in Pakistan or Hindustan do not cease to be citizens of their respective states by virtue of their belonging to particular faith, religion or race. I have repeatedly made it clear, especially in my opening speech to the constituent Assembley, that the minorities in Pakistan would be treated as our citizens and will enjoy all the rights as any other community. Pakistan SHALL pursue this policy and do all it can to create a sense of security and confidence in the Non-Muslim minorities of Pakistan. We do not prescribe any school boy tests for their loyalty. We shall not say to any Hindu citizen of Pakistan ‘if there was war would you shoot a Hindu?’

30th October 1947. To a Mass Rally at University Stadium Lahore.

The tenets of Islam enjoin on every Musalman to give protection to his neighbours and to the Minorities regardless of caste and creed. We must make it a matter of our honor and prestige to create sense of security amongst them.

Same Day. On Radio Pakistan.

Protection of Minorities is a sacred undertaking. (On Partition Massacres) Humanity cries out loud against this shameful conduct and deeds. The civilized world is looking upon these doings and happenings with horror and the fair name of the communities concerned stands blackened. Put an end to this ruthlessly and with an Iron hand.

9th January 1948. Tour of Riot affected areas of Karachi.

Muslims! Protect your Hindu Neighbours. Cooperate with the Government and the officials in protecting your Hindu Neighbours against these lawless elements, fifth columnists and cliques. Pakistan must be governed through the properly constituted Government and not by cliques or fifth columnists or Mobs.

25th January. Address to the Karachi Bar association on the occasion of Eid Milad un Nabi.

I would like to tell those who are misled by propaganda that not only the Muslims but Non Muslims have nothing to fear. Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. Islam has taught Equality, Justice and fairplay to everybody. What reason is there for anyone to fear. Democracy, equality, freedom on the highest sense of integrity and on the basis of fairplay and justice for everyone. Let us make the constitution of Pakistan. We will make it and we will show it to the world.

3rd February 1948. Address to the Parsi Community of Sindh.

I assure you Pakistan means to stand by its oft repeated promises of according equal rights to all its nationals irrespective of their caste or creed. Pakistan which symbolizes the aspirations of a nation that found it self to be a minority in the Indian subcontinent cannot be UNMINDFUL of minorities within its own borders. It is a pity that the fairname of Karachi was sullied by the sudden outburst of communal frenzy last month and I can’t find words strong enough to condemn the action of those who are responsible.

21st March 1948. Mass Rally at Dacca.

Let me take this opportunity of repeating what I have already said: We shall treat the minorities in Pakistan fairly and justly. We shall maintain peace, law and order and protect and safeguard every citizen of Pakistan without any distinction of caste, creed or community.

22nd March 1948. Meeting with Hindu Legislators.

We guarantee equal rights to all citizens of Pakistan. Hindus should in spirit and action wholeheartedly co-operate with the Government and its various branches as Pakistanis.

23rd March 1948. Meeting with the ‘Scheduled Caste Federation’.

We stand by our declarations that members of every community will be treated as citizens of Pakistan with equal rights and privileges and obligations and that Minorities will be safeguarded and protected.

13 June 1948. Speaking to Quetta Parsis.

Although you have not struck the note of your needs and requirements as a community but it is the policy of my Government and myself that every member of every community irrespective of caste color, creed or race shall be fully protected with regard to his life, property and honor. I reiterate to you that you like all minorities will be treated as equal citizens with your rights and obligations provided you are loyal to Pakistan.

Jinnah’s address to the people of the US in Feb 1948.

In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State — to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non- Muslims — Hindus, Christians, and Parsis — but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.

So what did Jinnah stand for?
He stood for justice and fair play for every one regardless of religion caste or creed. Let us make a solemn promise to ourselves on this 11th August Day (or the day I like to call Jinnah’s Pakistan Day) that we shall honor this vision of Pakistan as a pluralist, inclusive and progressive democratic state.



Jinnah and minorities

Make sure you read the bold and red.

Also read Jaswant Sindh: India-Pakistan partition. P.S. I am not much of spiritual person but I believe our struggle for Pakistan was the most noble most romantic thing in history. And the great thing is we did not take it through war but by political means. This makes Jinnah all the more greater.

It saddens me that there are still people-Muslims who do not see Pakistan's independence for what it is-that muslims can struggle politically and get what they want without violent means. Every country recognized Pakistan the day it got freedom. Afghanistan was the only country that did not accept Pakistan

[khushal]

If he wanted equality within pakistan for muslims, hindus and the others than why not have that in a united india. it is a hypocracy. he didnt exhaust all options for a united india. he served his british masters well and went along with dividing people for no pupose but to keep them weak.

[asad71]

I admit that the textbooks of Pakistan has made a mockery of the reasons why we formed Pakistan in the first place and make us sound like religious bigots instead of people who were forced into a position where they could do little else. Also dictatorial rule and corrupt governments have hollowed out our position greatly.

If you look at Jinnah's early speeches you will notice that not once he called for an independent Pakistan. Only in the 1940's did he vaguely start referring to a homeland for Muslims and in 1945 calling for an independent Pakistan directly. Jinnah always wanted to be with a united India but he led us on an independent path when he had no choice. Lets not forget that Jinnah was called the ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity by both Sarojini Naidu and Gokhale (Hindus themselves):

Pakistanis had no choice but to go for freedom. India didn't accept a single one of our demands... all we wanted was some guarantee, some form of commitment that our lives would be protected in a united India, that Hindus would not dominate us and their laws, their religion would not come to rule us, and we would be free to follow our religion.

People don't know how many demands were made before freedom which were turned down by the Indians... none of which demanded freedom. We just wanted autonomy and an equal share of resources. And of course the right for Muslim majority provinces to govern themselves. India did not understand that giving rights was better than seeing a broken India.

It is difficult for Afghans to comprehend the problems we were facing because Afghans are bred to view Pakistan as a kaffir state. Their hatred for Jinnah and Pakistan spurs them forwards. Before eating dinner they curse Jinnah.

But a small example will suffice. An example of Indian intolerance towards us was the cow slaughter ban, a law imposed on Muslims that banned the slaughter of cows (still exists in India). Now any Muslim knows that during Eid it is the duty of every Muslim to slaughter a cow. Its a sacred rite. If cows are holy to you then protect them and do whatever you do with them but please don't take our right to eat them... its actually in our religion.

Proof of Jinnah's secularism and goodwill towards minorities is here (Though most Pakistanis refuse to agree Jinnah was secular-As I said a Wahabi culture has been imposed on us):

Make sure you read the bold and red.

Also read Jaswant Sindh: India-Pakistan partition. P.S. I am not much of spiritual person but I believe our struggle for Pakistan was the most noble most romantic thing in history. And the great thing is we did not take it through war but by political means. This makes Jinnah all the more greater.

It saddens me that there are still people-Muslims who do not see Pakistan's independence for what it is-that muslims can struggle politically and get what they want without violent means. Every country recognized Pakistan the day it got freedom. Afghanistan was the only country that did not accept Pakistan

1. Jinnah was an honest, upright fair person who was also a great humanist. His speeches post 14 Aug 1947 must be read / viewed in context of the great slaughter that had begun with Partition. Jinnah was greatly saddened and through these speeches he had endeavored to clam emotions among his followers.

2. Beginning as an Ismaili of Punja sub sect of the Ismailis, Jinnah was totally anglicized in his youth in England. When he came in contact with the Muslim leaders and ulema in India, Jinnah's brilliant mind understood what true Islam is. He died a true Muslim. FYI, he had buried his wife Rutti in the Muslim cemetery of Bomaby. He banished his daughter Dina for marrying a non-Muslim.

3. I do not have access to a copy readily, but Jinnah's last speech delivered at the opening of the State Bank of Pakistan gives a true picture of his objectives for setting up a true Islamic state. For that speech he had to travel all the way from Zahedan disregarding advice of his doctors and staff.

4. Yes, one of the first to congratulate him was the founder of S Arabia King Abdul Aziz.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

^^can you back up any of these claims? Material written about him contradict the "upright muslim". He may have been honest, but his politics were (and I guess history is slowly proven them) to be counter-productive to Muslims. It has been horrible for Pashtuns.

[R3SISTANC3]

you young people regurgitating the past and indulging in these hate campaigns is totally of no use to man nor pis*ing beast.
it is amazing that you can misinterpret my comment to such a degree.
spending energy and time hating a dead guy is an utter waste.
the point of power is NOW... for the future.

BTW, my 'infidel' hindu friends, are very kind and loving people.

Jinnah is indeed a dead guy but he is much more than the person. Jinnah is the face of the Two-Nation theory which birthed Pakistan. That theory has failed and has been proven to be false.

It is a long subject....but worth a good constructive discussion.