Questions and concerns regarding Afghan Demographics!

[Nick]

Thanks Nick for your highly valuable posts.

Thanks dear

[Nick]

Hi Nick! I have been reading your posts and I have some thoughts that I was pondering over,


So If a Pashtun speaks Punjabi, or Urdu is he also exterminated from the Pashtun race?

How do you explain being a Pashtun?

A)Linguistic? If you can speak Pashto = Pashtun?
B)Linguistic and blood related to the ancestry?


An elaborated reply would be appreciated.

My Dear Please read my Post Number 10 above in the first Page I have mentioned and I hope it answers your Question.

Linguistic and Blood is two different application which you cannot use to represent your Ancestry. SO Is Ahmad Zahir a Tajik. Well Ok Lets leave him alone and get to someone more Sufi, Poetic, and religious, Khaliliah Khalili both sides of his parents were from Saphi tribe (Shinwari), Well if you won't buy him as Tajik then who is most famous? Maybe Modern TV channel Own of Ariana TV, Miskenyar, Second cousin of beloved Ahmad Zahir, Miskenyar whose family root is Pashtu speaking (Pashtun)just like me, he should of spoken Pashtu, but better better then me since at least he understands Pashtu but cannot respond in Pashtu. You tell me since when in the World that Race is represented by a Language.

Now you tell me How many Languages we had since 3000 BCE, I will tell you this, as many as 10 languages, you can argue them to be "Related" but in the Lingustic world Modern Pakhtu is not same as 300 AD Pakhtrian, and 300 AD Pakhtrian is not same as 200 BCE Kushano Pakhtrian and 200 BCE Kushano-Pakhtrian is not same as 300 BCE Greco-Pakhtrian, and 300 BCe Greco Pakhtrian is not same as 400 BCE Sakayan, is not same as 600 BCE Pakhtrian and 600 BCE Pakhtrian is not same as is not same as 1200 Sakayan and 1200 BCE Sakayan is not same as 2000 BCE Pakhtrian (Awesta Gathas). I simplified the language names given to this same Language of Pakhtu which its root is dated to be from 1200 BCE Sakayan or 1500BCE-2000 BCE Awesta (Not 300 BCE Iranian Avesta. Modern Avesta is maybe mixed Mede-Pakhtrian language because the Avesta that came into Iran around 600 BCE-500 BCE was burn by Alexander and those Practicing this Religion or Speaking of this Language was Punished by Fire, and almost no trace of old true Iranian Avesta Remains which was mixture of Afgan and Irani civilizations. Today and a non-Understanding version of indo-Aryan Awesta combined which was only found in Balkh known as "Gathas" that has words and only modern Pakhtu has relation with, and that Gathas has no relation with Median or Parthian or Sussani languages.

So If a Pashtun speaks Punjabi, or Urdu is he also exterminated from the Pashtun race

Pashtun is the modern hip word which got its fame but in old days it war from the word "Wan" Pashtowan, and it was never to be a race and even today Linguistics classify the Pashtuns to be "must be Pashtu speaking by mother tongue" So its not a Race, their Race is Afghan. "All Pashtuns are Afghan by Race, but not all Afghan Race are Pashtuns"

Blood Yes it can trace your Ancestry. (Only DNA can be possible) but other than that your Last name or tribal name can identify you. My Grandfather said himself if is Last name wasn't there we would never be Afghans which is why nowadays many Afghans simplify they last names or change their last names from Sharif Ghulam Mohammad which means Sharif his name and Ghulam Mohammad his Father's name into Sharif Ghulam Zazai. Well He is an author living in NY and you can read his Book. Mard-o-Zan dar Afghanistan published by NCA in 2008 he talks greatly about modern Afghans lost in the West, and trying to save their culture.

Anyways Please let me know if you want further info.
This is what I hate about some Pashtu speakers because they are represented to be over 50% of Afghanistan and Pakistan's some 17 million or maybe "lost-Pashtuns" or Pathans of Pakistan combined Maximum of 20 million thinks of themselves as a separate. And thinks that Pashtu is a Race. Well sorry but this is true and I hate People like that which is also alive practiced in Iran. Some Pashtuns have become so hardcore Pashtun, for example Pashtu Ahmadzai vs Dari Ahmadzai, the pashtun Ahmadzai for the heck of it calls Dari Ahmadzai **** Tajik. Simple and Clear just to piss us off. This is reality which many people have failed to realize that Dari was the core hard of Afghan society and we can't say Dari is not ours. Many of us Farsiwans say Dari and Pashtu is like our two Eyes, and we love both despite I don't speak a single word of Pashtu but my 7th forefathers did if not my 5th forefathers. Therefore I am Muslim first, second proud Afghan, and 3rd proud Farsiwan (Westerners refer to us from Turkic reference "Tadjik" thanks to the ugly Russians) last but not least I am proud Canadian

[Nick]

Nick Khan I just saw your post.

I wanted to ask, Since you said Pashto = Pashtun.

Lets say a Pashtun starts speaking only dari, you said they become Tajik right? now, what if a TAJIK starts speaking only Pashto?

What if a Tajik starts speaking Pashto only. Well the example of that kind of Pashtu are many. If we go into details. He is Pashtu by tongue? Why?
a) he lives in Pashtu speaking region
b) he adapts Pashtu culture
c) his race overtime intermixes with Pashtu tribes,


That Above was compalicated for you right? Think about this one. The tribe of Ghano Khel is half Uzbek and half Ghura Khel. They live in Samangan and now 60% of them speak Uzbeki and Dari and non speaks Pashtu and they are classified as "Tajiks" but they look just like other Ghura Khel. My Mother side I am too Ghura Khel so I know what happened there is hard for you to imagine.

What makes some-one Pashtun? By their Language.

We are not going into Tribalism. Cause for you its important to understand the unity of Afghan Race. We are Mixed one way or other, but generally there are 14 maga tribes which bonds this Qwam that we call "Afghan", and they speak mainly Pashtu at least 75% of these 14 tribes,
but Dari, Hindko, Punjabi, Urdu and Uzbeki can be found amongst them.


Here goes the list

1. Durrani before known as Abdaliate (Native Hephadaliates+Sakzai!!-Mostly Pashtu, 35% Farsiwan)
2. Ghalzai (Native Kushans!/Takharians!+ Hardcore Sunni Origin of Khalaji who killed supporters of Ali or the forefathers of modern shias, and they were kicked out by Khilafha of Iraq, who united with Saffarids and tried to fight against Iraq and they lost, but Saffarids still lived, mostly Pashtu, 25% Farsiwan)
3. Kakar, (famous for their war with Mahmud of ghazni, mainly in Quetta or also known as Kakaristan, mostly Pashtu, those in ghazni and other other afghan regions are 15% Farsiwan)
4. Shinwari (theory of Jewish Origin, mostly Pashtu, 10% Farsiwan)
5. Paktywal (Mention by Persians and Greeks famously known as Pacthyans native-often inter-mixed mostly 99% Pashtu also known as "Hardcore Pashtuns),
6. Apradi, (Theory of Jewish/Greek origin mostly Pashtu)
7, Ghura Khel (Fire Warshipers of regional Arcrothia, 60% were killed by Ghangis Khan those living are mostly in afghanistan are 65% or Mostly Farsiwan, but others who escaped Ghangis Khan went South are mainly 90% Pashtu like Chamkani/Khalil/Dorani)
8. Yousufzai, (native of Kabulistan in Persian source also known in Hindu source as Asfhozi tribe)
9 Dotani,
10 Daulatzai,
11, Bangash,
12.Karlanri,
13 Marwat,
14. Jadoon

Well these are 14 native and populated Afghan race or reasonably considered by elders as natives of Afghan Land.

There are other tribes who were not natives, like like Gujar (Rajputs), Hanza (Macadonians/Greeks with cultural practice and their theoretical origin), Arbabzai (Arabs Pashtuns), Qazalbash (Turko-Persian-Pashtuns), Kharsin (Persian Pashtun)etc who live inside Afghan land and also speaks Pashtu.


How big is these tribes maybe I have mentioned some but lets consider Karlani, from this tribe comes Mangal, Musazai, wardak, Dalazak, Darwarh, Gorbaz, Masood, Hani, Orakzai, Khogiani (not to confuse with Pajpai-Khoughaini), etc. You see just Karlani gives us enough picture of how divided and sounds complicated, but our tribal system is at the same time seems very organized only if we sit together we are all one.

Language comes and goes, the natives of this "Afghan-Land" may change their language over time, in the past as I mention somewhere in the forum we had so many "Past" languages, and in the Islamic period this pashtu of ours was considered "Haram" and it was banned, those speaking any older Kufari related languages were even killed. This Language from coming of Islam until Mongolian era was nicknamed "Language of Hell", Zeban-e-Duzhakh" and this way people were scared and forgotten their languages. During Late Ghurids ie Lodis when Mongols took full control and AlKhanate was under Shia influence and later divided into Timurid vs alKhanate anyways the whole case goes to religion where the natives found their ancient languages and those whose teachers were Dari zuban are now pashtuwans.

[Darweshkhel]

may I ask where do you got this information from cause I disagree on many points.

[eyeliner]

What if a Tajik starts speaking Pashto only. Well the example of that kind of Pashtu are many. If we go into details. He is Pashtu by tongue? Why?
a) he lives in Pashtu speaking region
b) he adapts Pashtu culture
c) his race overtime intermixes with Pashtu tribes,


That Above was compalicated for you right? Think about this one. The tribe of Ghano Khel is half Uzbek and half Ghura Khel. They live in Samangan and now 60% of them speak Uzbeki and Dari and non speaks Pashtu and they are classified as "Tajiks" but they look just like other Ghura Khel. My Mother side I am too Ghura Khel so I know what happened there is hard for you to imagine.

What makes some-one Pashtun? By their Language.

We are not going into Tribalism. Cause for you its important to understand the unity of Afghan Race. We are Mixed one way or other, but generally there are 14 maga tribes which bonds this Qwam that we call "Afghan", and they speak mainly Pashtu at least 75% of these 14 tribes,
but Dari, Hindko, Punjabi, Urdu and Uzbeki can be found amongst them.


Here goes the list

1. Durrani before known as Abdaliate (Native Hephadaliates+Sakzai!!-Mostly Pashtu, 35% Farsiwan)
2. Ghalzai (Native Kushans!/Takharians!+ Hardcore Sunni Origin of Khalaji who killed supporters of Ali or the forefathers of modern shias, and they were kicked out by Khilafha of Iraq, who united with Saffarids and tried to fight against Iraq and they lost, but Saffarids still lived, mostly Pashtu, 25% Farsiwan)
3. Kakar, (famous for their war with Mahmud of ghazni, mainly in Quetta or also known as Kakaristan, mostly Pashtu, those in ghazni and other other afghan regions are 15% Farsiwan)
4. Shinwari (theory of Jewish Origin, mostly Pashtu, 10% Farsiwan)
5. Paktywal (Mention by Persians and Greeks famously known as Pacthyans native-often inter-mixed mostly 99% Pashtu also known as "Hardcore Pashtuns),
6. Apradi, (Theory of Jewish/Greek origin mostly Pashtu)
7, Ghura Khel (Fire Warshipers of regional Arcrothia, 60% were killed by Ghangis Khan those living are mostly in afghanistan are 65% or Mostly Farsiwan, but others who escaped Ghangis Khan went South are mainly 90% Pashtu like Chamkani/Khalil/Dorani)
8. Yousufzai, (native of Kabulistan in Persian source also known in Hindu source as Asfhozi tribe)
9 Dotani,
10 Daulatzai,
11, Bangash,
12.Karlanri,
13 Marwat,
14. Jadoon

Well these are 14 native and populated Afghan race or reasonably considered by elders as natives of Afghan Land.

There are other tribes who were not natives, like like Gujar (Rajputs), Hanza (Macadonians/Greeks with cultural practice and their theoretical origin), Arbabzai (Arabs Pashtuns), Qazalbash (Turko-Persian-Pashtuns), Kharsin (Persian Pashtun)etc who live inside Afghan land and also speaks Pashtu.


How big is these tribes maybe I have mentioned some but lets consider Karlani, from this tribe comes Mangal, Musazai, wardak, Dalazak, Darwarh, Gorbaz, Masood, Hani, Orakzai, Khogiani (not to confuse with Pajpai-Khoughaini), etc. You see just Karlani gives us enough picture of how divided and sounds complicated, but our tribal system is at the same time seems very organized only if we sit together we are all one.

Language comes and goes, the natives of this "Afghan-Land" may change their language over time, in the past as I mention somewhere in the forum we had so many "Past" languages, and in the Islamic period this pashtu of ours was considered "Haram" and it was banned, those speaking any older Kufari related languages were even killed. This Language from coming of Islam until Mongolian era was nicknamed "Language of Hell", Zeban-e-Duzhakh" and this way people were scared and forgotten their languages. During Late Ghurids ie Lodis when Mongols took full control and AlKhanate was under Shia influence and later divided into Timurid vs alKhanate anyways the whole case goes to religion where the natives found their ancient languages and those whose teachers were Dari zuban are now pashtuwans.

wow wat a detailed answer, btw......wer did u get dat info from?

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

Nick your information is all over the place and your posting style is not very concise wrora...

[Darweshkhel]

What makes some-one Pashtun? By their Language.

You are Pashtun by blood. You can adapt a language or a culture but you can't fabricate ancestry.
Your forefathers, NIKA GAN نيکه ګان will tell you your tribe. If you can trace back your NIKA GAN to the 5th, or to the 7th generation and they were Pashtun - THEN YOUR Pashtun too even if you speak chinese. There are many Hindus who speak Pashto because they have lived around Kandahar for centuries. But they are Hindu. Your blood will always tell the truth.

By they way - har Pashtun be Pashto khwar dey BUT our NIKA GAN used to say

'پښتون نه هغه دی چې پښتو وايي
پښتون هغه دی چې پښتو لري

Here goes the list

1. Durrani before known as Abdaliate (Native Hephadaliates+Sakzai!!-Mostly Pashtu, 35% Farsiwan)
2. Ghalzai (Native Kushans!/Takharians!+ Hardcore Sunni Origin of Khalaji who killed supporters of Ali or the forefathers of modern shias, and they were kicked out by Khilafha of Iraq, who united with Saffarids and tried to fight against Iraq and they lost, but Saffarids still lived, mostly Pashtu, 25% Farsiwan)
3. Kakar, (famous for their war with Mahmud of ghazni, mainly in Quetta or also known as Kakaristan, mostly Pashtu, those in ghazni and other other afghan regions are 15% Farsiwan)
4. Shinwari (theory of Jewish Origin, mostly Pashtu, 10% Farsiwan)
5. Paktywal (Mention by Persians and Greeks famously known as Pacthyans native-often inter-mixed mostly 99% Pashtu also known as "Hardcore Pashtuns),
6. Apradi, (Theory of Jewish/Greek origin mostly Pashtu)
7, Ghura Khel (Fire Warshipers of regional Arcrothia, 60% were killed by Ghangis Khan those living are mostly in afghanistan are 65% or Mostly Farsiwan, but others who escaped Ghangis Khan went South are mainly 90% Pashtu like Chamkani/Khalil/Dorani)
8. Yousufzai, (native of Kabulistan in Persian source also known in Hindu source as Asfhozi tribe)
9 Dotani,
10 Daulatzai,
11, Bangash,
12.Karlanri,
13 Marwat,
14. Jadoon

Well these are 14 native and populated Afghan race or reasonably considered by elders as natives of Afghan Land.

I would be careful with this kinda information but I mean no disrespect my brother.

Most information on ethnolinguistic groups, ethnics, tribes or demographics in Afghanistan are based on narrative notices made by FOREIGNERS during times when they confused tribes and ethnic groups. They didnt know NOTHING about Afghans but wrote books on our demographics and ethnics but damn what kinda information can you collect visiting Afghanistan for the first time in your life for several weeks.
So false information was spread around the whole world and pressed a million times and every source on this (almost every) is simply UNRELIABLE.

Some of those so-called 'ethnolinguists' classified Yusufzay, Wazir, often Ghilzay and many other tribes as seperated ethnic groups. They took this legend of 4 sons of Qais as a common forefather of Pashtuns and tried to reconstuate their ancestry. They didnt know about Karlan, they thought Ghalzay are non-Pashtun, they thought Nuristani are soldiers of Alexander the Great and had no ideas about real background of Hazaras etc etc etc all this fairytales.
Afghanistan was like ELDORADE for hobby Indiana Jones' 200 years ago. While european countries were industrialyzing and developing they found in Afghanistan ancient traditions and customs.
AFG has a long tradition of wars and have been the GENESIS of warrior civilizations due to many reasons. They had so many wars besides the most famous ones (1838-1919,1978) we dont even know about. They had several wars during Amir Abdur Rahmans reign etc etc etc. Many civilizations were destroyed, cultural achievements were spoilt, historical monuments were not recognized or simply not protected over centuries these accomplishments were buried in oblivion.

I would call Afghan history something like a series of revolutions..

That kinda info that your using here is just ESTIMATION because NO ONE can prove whether its 50% or maybe 58%. But it's like guilty til found innocent.


I personally believe you cant even classify ethnics correctly in many areas becase there are 15 different groups thrown together and that area can be like Helmand valley or some valley in Nuristan. Reliable, unbiased and non-propaganda info ist difficult to find, propaganda has already reached your newspaper (webbrowser).
To explain demographics of AFG - extreme difficult task which you can only fulfil in peace times..

But these times are rare that reminds me of some phrase I once read written by some European:

'a Pashtun is never at peace - except when he is at war'. Thats how the world sees us. Thats like a brand-name circulating all over again 'Afghanistan=WAR:Afghanistan=WAR:Afghanistan=WAR'.
But I can't lie - Afghans got some deadly war tactics=)


تل دې وي وزيرستان افغانستان پښتونخوا

Language comes and goes, the natives of this "Afghan-Land" may change their language over time, in the past as I mention somewhere in the forum we had so many "Past" languages

Pashto is one of the oldest languages in Asia its an ancient language which is only spoken by Pashtuns only. It is not adopted, or mixed, or created, further Pashto has never been modernized - in fact it didn't change much over the last centuries in comparison with major changes like many european languages.

Pashto was, is and always will BE Inshallah. You cant 'CHANGE' your language over this short period of times - at least a large nation like Pashtuns who are PASHTUNPAL. They dont change anything that fast.

Language can not just 'COME and GO' there must be reasons and major changes for a language to disappear. This is a process of centuries, many centuries.

in the Islamic period this pashtu of ours was considered "Haram" and it was banned, This Language from coming of Islam until Mongolian era was nicknamed "Language of Hell", Zeban-e-Duzhakh" and this way people were scared and forgotten their languages.

This was created by our enemies to confuse and to demonize Pashto and Pashtunwali. We should not believe this. Many Pashtuns tribes were bilinguar for many centuries - they spoke Pashto and Dari or Pashto and Urdo because these languages were vital and were used by Pashtuns for communication. For Pashtuns it was easier to learn Dari or Urdo than to wait until their neighbors could learn Pashto - they were not thinking of discrimination.
Our NIKAGAN used to call Pashtunkhwa '
د مسلمانو کور
They were proud of being Pashtun muslims - Pashto was never banned just demonized centuries later by our enemies to create differences amongst us.

However I could go on. I would like to know where do you have this information from.

Keep it up,
Darweshkhel

[Nick]

You are Pashtun by blood. You can adapt a language or a culture but you can't fabricate ancestry.
Your forefathers, NIKA GAN نيکه ګان will tell you your tribe. If you can trace back your NIKA GAN to the 5th, or to the 7th generation and they were Pashtun - THEN YOUR Pashtun too even if you speak chinese. There are many Hindus who speak Pashto because they have lived around Kandahar for centuries. But they are Hindu. Your blood will always tell the truth.

By they way - har Pashtun be Pashto khwar dey BUT our NIKA GAN used to say

'پښتون نه هغه دی چې پښتو وايي
پښتون هغه دی چې پښتو لري

I would be careful with this kinda information but I mean no disrespect my brother.

Most information on ethnolinguistic groups, ethnics, tribes or demographics in Afghanistan are based on narrative notices made by FOREIGNERS during times when they confused tribes and ethnic groups. They didnt know NOTHING about Afghans but wrote books on our demographics and ethnics but damn what kinda information can you collect visiting Afghanistan for the first time in your life for several weeks.
So false information was spread around the whole world and pressed a million times and every source on this (almost every) is simply UNRELIABLE.

Some of those so-called 'ethnolinguists' classified Yusufzay, Wazir, often Ghilzay and many other tribes as seperated ethnic groups. They took this legend of 4 sons of Qais as a common forefather of Pashtuns and tried to reconstuate their ancestry. They didnt know about Karlan, they thought Ghalzay are non-Pashtun, they thought Nuristani are soldiers of Alexander the Great and had no ideas about real background of Hazaras etc etc etc all this fairytales.
Afghanistan was like ELDORADE for hobby Indiana Jones' 200 years ago. While european countries were industrialyzing and developing they found in Afghanistan ancient traditions and customs.
AFG has a long tradition of wars and have been the GENESIS of warrior civilizations due to many reasons. They had so many wars besides the most famous ones (1838-1919,1978) we dont even know about. They had several wars during Amir Abdur Rahmans reign etc etc etc. Many civilizations were destroyed, cultural achievements were spoilt, historical monuments were not recognized or simply not protected over centuries these accomplishments were buried in oblivion.

I would call Afghan history something like a series of revolutions..

That kinda info that your using here is just ESTIMATION because NO ONE can prove whether its 50% or maybe 58%. But it's like guilty til found innocent.


I personally believe you cant even classify ethnics correctly in many areas becase there are 15 different groups thrown together and that area can be like Helmand valley or some valley in Nuristan. Reliable, unbiased and non-propaganda info ist difficult to find, propaganda has already reached your newspaper (webbrowser).
To explain demographics of AFG - extreme difficult task which you can only fulfil in peace times..

But these times are rare that reminds me of some phrase I once read written by some European:

'a Pashtun is never at peace - except when he is at war'. Thats how the world sees us. Thats like a brand-name circulating all over again 'Afghanistan=WAR:Afghanistan=WAR:Afghanistan=WAR'.
But I can't lie - Afghans got some deadly war tactics=)


تل دې وي وزيرستان افغانستان پښتونخوا



Pashto is one of the oldest languages in Asia its an ancient language which is only spoken by Pashtuns only. It is not adopted, or mixed, or created, further Pashto has never been modernized - in fact it didn't change much over the last centuries in comparison with major changes like many european languages.

Pashto was, is and always will BE Inshallah. You cant 'CHANGE' your language over this short period of times - at least a large nation like Pashtuns who are PASHTUNPAL. They dont change anything that fast.

Language can not just 'COME and GO' there must be reasons and major changes for a language to disappear. This is a process of centuries, many centuries.



This was created by our enemies to confuse and to demonize Pashto and Pashtunwali. We should not believe this. Many Pashtuns tribes were bilinguar for many centuries - they spoke Pashto and Dari or Pashto and Urdo because these languages were vital and were used by Pashtuns for communication. For Pashtuns it was easier to learn Dari or Urdo than to wait until their neighbors could learn Pashto - they were not thinking of discrimination.
Our NIKAGAN used to call Pashtunkhwa '
د مسلمانو کور
They were proud of being Pashtun muslims - Pashto was never banned just demonized centuries later by our enemies to create differences amongst us.

However I could go on. I would like to know where do you have this information from.

Keep it up,
Darweshkhel

You are Pashtun by blood. You can adapt a language or a culture but you can't fabricate ancestry.
Your forefathers, NIKA GAN نيکه ګان will tell you your tribe. If you can trace back your NIKA GAN to the 5th, or to the 7th generation and they were Pashtun - THEN YOUR Pashtun too even if you speak chinese. There are many Hindus who speak Pashto because they have lived around Kandahar for centuries. But they are Hindu. Your blood will always tell the truth.

By they way - har Pashtun be Pashto khwar dey BUT our NIKA GAN used to say

Dear Darwesh janna with all respect to you and those who believe that a classified linguistic group given an English term "ethno" with Pashtu speakers classified as "ethnic" group, in most dictionaries and also in many advanced encyclopedias I personally have a good explanation that how we human being create word after another day by day just to make our communication advanced in paper as well as complicated in speech. So lets leave to When or How did the word PASHTUN or PAKHTUN reached its heights and stamped in Western Encyclopedias, as an "Ethicity". Let me know if you are interested in this subject. Shell we continue!

Your forefathers, NIKA GAN نيکه ګان will tell you your tribe. If you can trace back your NIKA GAN to the 5th, or to the 7th generation and they were Pashtun - THEN YOUR Pashtun too even if you speak chinese. There are many Hindus who speak Pashto because they have lived around Kandahar for centuries. But they are Hindu. Your blood will always tell the truth.

Perhaps you might of read my views, to many brothers I am complected and to many I am reasonable. The "Complicated part" and you might of read this from me that I don't believe Pashtun =RACE, but rather Pashtun=Qwami de Pashtuwali.I don't believe in Shia Theory or some Sultani-Ludi's prospective and fame of how we might of been created and of whom we are descendant of. I don't believe in all the 70 million sons of Quis, I don't believe 12 million Ghalzai being Harami sons of Shah Hussian. I don't believe in Mythical BS. Perhaps you may agree with me, if you disagree, again I am very comfortable by rejecting these theories with full explanations, as well as modern Afghan historian point of views that has rejected many false claims as you pointed out "Afghanistan the hobby Indiana Jones".

پښتون نه هغه دی چې پښتو وايي
پښتون هغه دی چې پښتو لري


Yes I too believe in this when it comes to microscopically closely looking at behavior of the cultural development of this that it took years to build and indeed this was what the human ethnologists used during 18th century that resulted in classification of "ethnicity" seperated from "Race". Which is why today many nations are happy to be classified as an ethnic group such as people of Italy, Greece, Russia, mainly speaking European nations where a minor differences were not considered. However when came to outside Europe these "Minor" differences, were purposely used and as you agree were propagandized. Such as Mirwat vs Orakzai with disagreement over few minor issues, but 60 years later British found out and used this case to end this minor into "Tribal war" a conflict ended in 1890s. Few wars here and there resulted in bad mark on afghan unity, that we are like animals always fighting each-other.

There are many Hindus who speak Pashto because they have lived around Kandahar for centuries. But they are Hindu. Your blood will always tell the truth

Sorry I know what you mean but since you disagree to what I believe I personally want to make this clear that Hindu was never and never will be an "Ethnicity" "Race" or a tribe, but rather a nickname for polytheists. Yes I understand from your prospective you want Hindu to be called a "Qwam" which is why you want them to be "non-Pashtun" which I agree. But Agree on this is simply because I read from history that thousands of Hindus were taken from India and brought into Afghanistan, mainly as slave, and by 1920s they came as "Businessman". Needless to say that Afghanistan before Islam was also a land of Polytheists, you see I am not going to use the word "hindu" because it remains us of Brahman Hindu majority of India. But this is a fact that our forefathers just like forefathers of many other Islamic nations ie Syria/Egypt/Saudi/Iraq and Morocco, etc etc etc were all non-Muslims. Since we were heavily involved in the position of the main expansion of Hannifah Schooling in south Asia, our own background has been forgotten that we were too Polytheists, Siva Worshipers Mytria worshipers, and Fire worshipers, but alhamduallah by allah's will we were invited in the right path, and our forefathers did not make war with first invitations of Muhammad (PBUH), perhaps later there were minor clashes and three major ones, tribes we still know today.

Some of those so-called 'ethnolinguists' classified Yusufzay, Wazir, often Ghilzay and many other tribes as seperated ethnic groups. They took this legend of 4 sons of Qais as a common forefather of Pashtuns and tried to reconstuate their ancestry.

Agree

They didnt know about Karlan, they thought Ghalzay are non-Pashtun, they thought Nuristani are soldiers of Alexander the Great and had no ideas about real background of Hazaras etc etc etc all this fairytales.
Afghanistan was like ELDORADE for hobby Indiana Jones' 200 years ago. While european countries were industrialyzing and developing they found in Afghanistan ancient traditions and customs.
AFG has a long tradition of wars and have been the GENESIS of warrior civilizations due to many reasons. They had so many wars besides the most famous ones (1838-1919,1978) we dont even know about. They had several wars during Amir Abdur Rahmans reign etc etc etc. Many civilizations were destroyed, cultural achievements were spoilt, historical monuments were not recognized or simply not

Agree

I would call Afghan history something like a series of revolutions..

That kinda info that your using here is just ESTIMATION because NO ONE can prove whether its 50% or maybe 58%. But it's like guilty til found innocent.

Agree

I personally believe you cant even classify ethnics correctly in many areas becase there are 15 different groups thrown together and that area can be like Helmand valley or some valley in Nuristan. Reliable, unbiased and non-propaganda info ist difficult to find, propaganda has already reached your newspaper (webbrowser).

agree

To explain demographics of AFG - extreme difficult task which you can only fulfil in peace times..

But these times are rare that reminds me of some phrase I once read written by some European:

Agree Again I never said I believe in those numbers but rather mixed information of here and there. But more and more of everyday we know far better about the Linguistic groups than what we used to know in 1970s. You have to agree with me.

Pashto is one of the oldest languages in Asia its an ancient language which is only spoken by Pashtuns only. It is not adopted, or mixed, or created, further Pashto has never been modernized - in fact it didn't change much over the last centuries in comparison with major changes like many european languages.

I too agree that Pashtu is native and its roots "CAME" or driven from OLDEST Languages. However you have to agree with me, that what Pashtuns speak today both dialects (Pakhtu) cannot be understood by what their forefathers used to speak in 900 AD. Now Imagine you are living in 800 AD you would not be able to speak the way people spoke in 200 AD. These were the changes I was speaking of. I never said it was "Created" like our Dari, and nor I said it was same as it was. Because if it was then believe me today you wouldn't be able to understand many Quranic and few Dari words (This goes specially to Kandahari Pashtu heavily influenced by Dari).

Language can not just 'COME and GO' there must be reasons and major changes for a language to disappear. This is a process of centuries, many centuries.

You see Dari you may ask any Afghan teacher who teaches Dari literature can tell you that today's Farsi dialect of Dari is perhaps the oldest of all Farsi dialects and its furthest date does to 860 AD, there is no such written document that can prove that Dari exited before 800 AD, Few out of full page of Sassani Written documents which was held by Arabs certifies that out of 500 words only 100 words were recognizable and 400 other words LOL they had to assume and read the bottom Arabic version of what a Sassani General meant to say. This was one way of how we can trace language, and perhaps if more of these documents existed around today we would still have living Parthian language. Our Dari is mixture of many language and almost every Farsi scholar agrees from either Iraq, Iran, Turkistan, Afghanistan, or Hindustan that 51% of this language is Arabic purely and that 49% is mixture of first Parthian (Parsian) then rest of the regional languages fallows such as Pakhtrian/Sanskrit/Turanic.



Pashtu also took the same feature but rather less Arabic and almost no Dari with over time modern famous Pashtu of Kandahari dialect with often DARI WORDS, that's it. So Yes I agree with you that over 55% of Pashtu is native Avesta and some Pashtu scholars say even as many as 60% and despite what Afghan pashtu or Pashtu scholars of afgana ( NWFP) says or believes in this fact is not not understood by outsiders simply because of 40 years lack of research in this language and no ground support from Government to fund such research many of the scholars with private research companies and NGOs came to conclusion that Awesta is the on;ly traceable root to Pashtu. Needless to say because of Arabic words the Englishman in 18ths thought this was a direct influence of Jews, and today they know that Jewish language played no no rule in Pashtu if any Semitic it would be Arabic or Archeamanid of Persia who also used Jewish Language ie written system to communicate.

This was created by our enemies to confuse and to demonize Pashto and Pashtunwali. We should not believe this. Many Pashtuns tribes were bilinguar for many centuries - they spoke Pashto and Dari or Pashto and Urdo because these languages were vital and were used by Pashtuns for communication. For Pashtuns it was easier to learn Dari or Urdo than to wait until their neighbors could learn Pashto - they were not thinking of discrimination.
Our NIKAGAN used to call Pashtunkhwa '

I agree which is I mentioned that people were "Scared" to speak their mother language, perhaps at that time it was good because it may have helped Islam to rise but after few centuries as I mention specially in the Mongolian era, where Mongolian Bloodshed, fame of shiaism. Although Shias were still strong even as during Mahmud of Ghazni war with Buywads loss of 12000 Zabulians, but again during Mongolian era, support from Khawarizm to Ghangis resulted in lost of 35% of Afghanistan's population mainly in the Northern regions, although later Khawarizm regard their support as cowardy because over all Iran also lost 25% of its population. But Fame of Shias resulted in support for native culture, language, and making Hannifah as core of their believe in making sure Shiaism does not get into Afghanistan, unfortunately it did within 200 years and by 1500 rise of secular sunni Empire/State was in demand, non was there if any it was corrupt Moguals, until birth of Mirwais Khan. Anyways LOl this is a different issue we will get into this as well if you request so maybe some other time.

However I could go on. I would like to know where do you have this information from.

Specific please cause on member in here said the truth I am going and jumping everywhere which is my normal way of "chit-Chatting"
Do you want something on the tribal names, is it about estimate on "Farsiwan" speaking Abdaliates? is it about Karlani?

Well if you are wondering about the history and mythical believes or western Theories regarding the tribal roots. Please let me know and I do have sources and explanations. I give you whatever you request for, such "sub-quote"


thanks brother, for your feedback, I hope we can continue with this, brother I am waiting for your specific questions. Please feel free to share your hard, soft and good and bad feelings. I don't mind, I have been on Cyberworld long enough that I sometimes feel that I have heard alot of people. But If I know something and I hide it, then that's not good, and if we don't research and discuss its also no good. The future Afghan generation are Lost and you have to agree with me. For example I am aware of tribal trees and many people even older in the community are not aware of even half of the stuff above. I am not saying oh I am very informative, but I shell I am solid enough that I have gotten my info from major and well know scholars, and if not at least from Book here and there.

Perhaps I also shared my views in one of your threads that I too like yourself don't trust in 80% of the Western sources and I totally reject Pakistani Political and statistical BS and also I totally reject Iranian history Books and sources. Therefore I am picky on what I consider "non bias", and less "Propaganda".

[Nick]

Nick your information is all over the place and your posting style is not very concise wrora...

Posting Style, I understand but concise? Please let me know, to be honest I had little time and my brother Kandahary asked a question by which I rejected him and responded with Tribal affiliation of their sub-tribes and protested with argument that some of these people speaks "Dari" as well, but also that some of these tribes are not even Afghan. I also presented him with 14 maga tribal names that today our forefathers consider "Natives of afghanistan" again I believe that Pashtun=Afghan, and that all Pashtuns are afghan but my argumentis was and always will be that not all Afghans are Pashtuns. Again to be those who are not associated with Afghan culture, Afghan Code of Honor, pride, and Islamic believe of Hannaifah as well as local traditions are not afghans. I have said this before and I am hated for saying it at all time and I say in every forum, that aside from Pashtuwans/Pashia/Farsiwans/Baloch and Hindkos linguistic group non are Afghan, but these because they somewhat have that ""Afghan" connection in their blood, tribe as well as historical connections. By thus we exclude Turkic speaking Persian or Tajik or Tajikistanis, Uzbek invaders and settlers, as well as Hazaras and Turkomans/Kazak/Kyrgis/Sikhs/Punjabis/Arabs/Aimaq/Jamshidis/Qazalbash. I am not saying they don't deserve to live in afghanistan but rather I am saying by their roots they are not "AFG".

[Nick]

Ok some asked if I believe all Ghalzais are from Arab Ghaliji actually its not that. I was just given a history theory of the name. The name may have been barrowed and used by the Afghans perhaps during that time in 800 AD there was anti-Arab sentiments which attracted people.
I personally don't believe in all Ghalzais being from One parents but rather I think like Durani Ghalzai and many other tribes are "Confederations" where tribes form unity against a common cause. Sure I know every tribe, sub tribe, and Khels and Zai under the banner of ghalzai but sub tribes are so huge in numbers that its impossible to think of them being from same "Parents". In other words we can assume which tribe was older and which tribe is younger.

[Darweshkhel]

So lets leave to When or How did the word PASHTUN or PAKHTUN reached its heights and stamped in Western Encyclopedias, as an "Ethicity". Let me know if you are interested in this subject. Shell we continue!

This would be a pleasure!

[Nick]

Afghan was the word given by persians, persian isn't necessarily iranian because other ethnicities reside their. Persian includes tajiks aswell.

Afghan was the word given by persians

False Propaganda.

persian isn't necessarily iranian because other ethnicities reside their

Persian is a linguistic term due to their unique dialect, history, culture, as well as their tradition which is heavily influenced by Shiaism they can be defined as pure Iranian. Historically aside from Turko-Mongolian influence Iran, and also further Eastern Borders, After conquest of Alexander's Era Persian never practiced tribalism. Therefore its hard to define them with common blood line like the Afghan tribal society, which according to BBC covers 70% of the population.

Persian includes tajiks aswell

From Iranian prospective:
Believe me when I say this, because I have aside from Reading knowledge I also have personal knowledge of local Iranian mindset, my cousins used to live in Iran and I too visited Eastern Iran, generally from American-Iranian prospective its very abusive, however from local Iranian prospective People think Afghan=Chinese looking and Tajik= Mixed Persian.

From Tajik prospective:
Living in Tajikistan, the People are nice at the same time many like the 30% of Afghanistan's Farsiwan population have Identity crisis, the Tajiks of Tajikistan careless about religion would rather wanted to be affiliated with Iranians rather then their own Race which is "Turkic".



From Farsiwan Prospective Ok Lets say the way Westerners say it from Afghanistan's Tajik prospect:
In side Farsiwan community there is also a "Qawm wa Qawm Bazi" Which means that Tribal or Qwami aspect of living is still widely respected as it is in modern Pashtun prospective but lets softer and hardcore. The country side uneducated Farsiwans from Afghanistan will be very abused and disappointed if you call them Tajik, because today "Tajiks" means bazigar, and as many have witness era of 1980s and still Videos available for them "Tajik Khana" meant brothel house where foreign girls from Tajikistan were brought to ease new and modern Afghan communist students. Which means visible to the community, as well as many concerts showing their dance and tradition in Afghan TV have spoiled the identity "Tajik". Therefore those Farsiwan who didn't knew what Tajik meant came to conclusion that Tajiks means "Others".

Like the Pashtuwan or Pashtuns those Farsiwan of 1970s and 1980s studied in Kabul under communism umbrella also fell under Russian influence came to accept "Tajik" identity, coping from Pashtun nationalism even a party was organized in the communist era was known as Setami Millat, opposition to Afghan Millat. At the beginning it got a fame and million people joined the party, however when Karmal came to power, prostitution, drugs, alcohol came to be a new symbol resulted in Farsiwans noticing that Badakhshi the parties founder was leading an scheme worse that he was an Ismaili. By End of Karmal was marked as end of Setami Mellat. The Other reason why this party did not reached outside Kabul was because many of them Farsiwans in old days as our Fathers and grandfathers said, no-one knew what the heck this word Tajik meant until Communist books reaching 1950s and 1960s.


However in old days if you call them "Persian" they will be confused and they will correct you with the word "Farsi".

However from a Farsiwan who as been abroad will again understand that regardless what we do, we are not going to take our time to explain you in detail, but for sure we will let you know that we are Afghan. Due to spoiled nature of the word "Tajik" we are going to tell you if either we are Sayed, Khuawja or Sidiqi, or our tribal affiliated last-names. Needless to say but due to religious conflicts with true Persians, its very abusive for any Farsiwan to accept the term Persian. However Persian was coined in 1960s regarding demography of Afghanistan from Western sources where as Russian sources call us "Tajiks". Therefore not to be associated with anything to do with Iran we have rather have to be stuck with the term "Tajik" that applies to Turkic Persians rather than "Persian"



From my personal view: Comparing the two words.

People like me who have seen faces as well as their friendly and loving attitude, will conclude that no-way them Tajiks are same as us "Tajiks".

Because what I saw in my many years in Tajikistan was both Shocking and surprising, and what I thought of Iran, I would rather be associated with the word "Persian". Because the Tajiks are only Muslim by name and in their weddings, Eids, as well as nowroz or any sort of celebration they have to have Wine. Second in the Streets Prostitution is allowed although Government of Tajikistan hides this but sex price is same as one glass of water. From whole population maybe 10% of them pray and that also is done only on Fridays.
3rd their culture is so mixed as to be same as Uzbek, I still don't get how Russia was successful in separating them, from Uzbekistan since they look same, act same, just talk different. Speaking of "Talk" their language is also heavily influenced by Uzbeki words, which is why their Language "Tajiki" is special to them only. 4th from their cultural and treditional aspect they share nothing with us Farsiwan or Afghanistan's Tajik. They dress different, their wedding and ceremonies are different, as well as their local believes and open minded towards such subjects as "Girls" which is why Russians nicknamed their society as open-minded Sex industry.


Therefore I am not racist against them simply because 80% of them look like our Uzbeks or Hazaras, oh no, I love their Asianic looks, but rather their whole society and non-Islamic elements have made me agree that i would rather wanted to be associated with Iran and be labeled as "Persian".

[Darweshkhel]

Perhaps you might of read my views, to many brothers I am complected and to many I am reasonable. The "Complicated part" and you might of read this from me that I don't believe Pashtun =RACE, but rather Pashtun=Qwami de Pashtuwali.I don't believe in Shia Theory or some Sultani-Ludi's prospective and fame of how we might of been created and of whom we are descendant of. I don't believe in all the 70 million sons of Quis, I don't believe 12 million Ghalzai being Harami sons of Shah Hussian. I don't believe in Mythical BS.

i dont believe in this theory either i didnt even take it serious until I realized how many books were claiming that and even pashtuns were claiming being israels lost tribes. i cant believe in fairytales.

Sorry I know what you mean but since you disagree to what I believe I personally want to make this clear that Hindu was never and never will be an "Ethnicity" "Race" or a tribe, but rather a nickname for polytheists. Yes I understand from your prospective you want Hindu to be called a "Qwam" which is why you want them to be "non-Pashtun" which I agree. But Agree on this is simply because I read from history that thousands of Hindus were taken from India and brought into Afghanistan, mainly as slave, and by 1920s they came as "Businessman".

i didnt confuse ethnicity and religion i just used the word hindu as a common name for everyone that migrated from hindustan. I agree with you that they came to afgh as businessman this is fact that is denied by many afghans for some reasons.

I too agree that Pashtu is native and its roots "CAME" or driven from OLDEST Languages. However you have to agree with me, that what Pashtuns speak today both dialects (Pakhtu) cannot be understood by what their forefathers used to speak in 900 AD. Now Imagine you are living in 800 AD you would not be able to speak the way people spoke in 200 AD. These were the changes I was speaking of. I never said it was "Created" like our Dari, and nor I said it was same as it was. Because if it was then believe me today you wouldn't be able to understand many Quranic and few Dari words (This goes specially to Kandahari Pashtu heavily influenced by Dari).

i was told that dari is not a dialect of persian in fact dari is ancient persian and farsi that is spoken in iran today has developed from dari. im not a linguist and im far from claiming this or that please correct me if im wrong.

[Darweshkhel]

Perhaps you might of read my views, to many brothers I am complected and to many I am reasonable. The "Complicated part" and you might of read this from me that I don't believe Pashtun =RACE, but rather Pashtun=Qwami de Pashtuwali.

what do you mean by that?
since your using the word "qawm" we must first analyze this term because qawm in pashto means something different than qawm in dari. what about pashtunwali? there are people in A. who dont know the word pashtunwali but their speak pashto and do pashto. are they not pashtuns?
i wouldnt use the term "race" either i would rather use terms that we have in our own languages pashto and dari.

[Nick]

i dont believe in this theory either i didnt even take it serious until I realized how many books were claiming that and even pashtuns were claiming being israels lost tribes. i cant believe in fairytales.


i didnt confuse ethnicity and religion i just used the word hindu as a common name for everyone that migrated from hindustan. I agree with you that they came to afgh as businessman this is fact that is denied by many afghans for some reasons.

i was told that dari is not a dialect of persian in fact dari is ancient persian and farsi that is spoken in iran today has developed from dari. im not a linguist and im far from claiming this or that please correct me if im wrong.

I am glad we share some ideas.

i was told that dari is not a dialect of persian in fact dari is ancient persian and farsi that is spoken in iran today has developed from dari. im not a linguist and im far from claiming this or that please correct me if im wrong.

What you told was a fact. Dari is not a Dialect of any and nor an offshoot of Persian, but dominion of its own. Developed during Islamic era therefore not as ancient.