The end of Nationalism; why Pakistan, Afghanistan and all other Nation States must go

[ScimitarXEdge]

BSMA


Lately many discussions have erupted regarding the eminent future of Pakistan; and often there arises the declaration for the abolishment of Pakistan. While it's legitimate to advocate the dissolution of Pakistan; the motives for it are misguided; The Goal here is not to end Pakistan to promote justice but rather to serve the interests of other Nation-States; where does this benefit us? The Current Nation States of Asia were carved out during the Imperialistic Conquest of the Great Game; this produced the modern countries of Saudi Arabiia,. India, Pakistan and yes even Afghanistan and modern Iran. Prior to the advent of European intrusion and interference these regions became aligned not by National boundaries but regions of authority which bore allegiance to various rulers. Hence we had an Ottoman Empire, Qajarid Empires and Durrani Empires; none of them held officiated centralized nation state names such as Turkey, Afghanistan, Pakhtunistan, Iran, or Hind, other than perhaps names of regions.

In effect this battle between Nation-States and fighting for the boundaries of Nation States is really subservience to the machinations of Imperialism which seeks to maintain disparity and poverty, lack of strength, fortification and legitimate development to ensure the East remains subservient and dependent. Nationalism thus does not actually help the people the Nation State claims to represent but on the contrary the Imperial Design which was seeking to conquest and exploit people in the first place by cultivating divide and rule schemes to keep societies distracted into turning against each other and wasting their resources; allowing Imperial hegemony supremacy and exploitive control.

The Nationalists deviously try to posture themselves as representatives of Native Societies and then attempt to manipulate the masses by advocating collaboration with Imperialistic Entities to work against rival nation states; while simultaneously running the same scheme with other rival nation states. A Perfect example is the Pakistan-Afghanistan conflict manifesting in the form of many vehicles. Taliban, Puppet Regimes, Northern Alliance or the ISI and other elements all somehow connected to the American CIA, British MI6 and other Imperialist institutions.These people who advocate collaborating with Imperialists are really working against their people and use Nationalism as a pretext to serve Imperialism and this is how they maintain dependence rather than collaborate with people who share same natural alliances and connections whether religion or geography; and developing our own independent resources outside of Imperial dependence. Such boundaries only benefit imperialists and not the native regions. They're inventions of interference to assist in the manipulation of rivalries. This is why the advocates of Imperialism

This is why there needs to be dissolution of Nation State boundaries as it is preventative and keeps the global network in perpetual servitude and dependence; and allows resources and energies to be wasted. Those who have tried to oppose such a move only demonstrated they're slaves of people who have tried to colonize the region and hence their move to work along side them and promote their agenda. The more we keep nation state politics the furthere we'll always remain deprived. All Nation States are byproducts of these demarcations and these daermarcations were set in place for a reason; if we are to reverse the damage done we have to undo the mechanisms which led to engendering it.

[Alchemist]

why don't you cancel your american citizenship first then we'll talk.

[graveyardofempires]

why should we Afghans count ourselves in the line with all the colonised coutries.
we are to stay Afghan patriots against all odds.

[ScimitarXEdge]

why don't you cancel your american citizenship first then we'll talk.

because when all is done, there wont be any need to cancel my citizenship; the institutions they represent will have already been canceled.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

^^yaraa scimitar what is this strategic plan?

[ScimitarXEdge]

sorry Graveyardofempires wrora; someday we'll have to realize that Afghanistan too as we currently know it was also manufactured and devised out of the plan of Imperialists.... Afghanistan is not special or any different than Pakistan and it was because of the ignorance of our rulers that we are in the state today, and same applies to Pakistan, India , and Saudi Arabia and all others. Were not really our countries but fabricated by Europeans to turn us against each other or keeps us divided against each other; they did this so they can take advantage of us. If we ever want to progress we have to give up these shackles for a broader more profound cause.

[ScimitarXEdge]

^^yaraa scimitar what is this strategic plan?

If you read my posts; with any actual intent, you'd have had clues. I won't make implicit declarations of actions here; as the guys sitting near my house in a van are probably keeping tabs. But as long as you understand the jist and also the relationship of how our access to certain resources is crucial in the process. As long as I can arouse interest and get the message out here, that's all that matters for right now. The ripples in the pond.

[Alchemist]

ok ghanzarya ...when you have undone the institutions that you belong to then the nation states will also dissolve.

You must be smoking some real good sticky icky.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Maybe if you stopped working at Subway and put your Degree to work, you and I could make magic happen.

[Dervaish]

Slave nations cannot understand freedom or the value of freedom. They feel secure in the concentration camps of nationalism. In spite of corruption, killings, crimes, poverty, exploitation, all the evils they are living in, they can't see beyond the cocoons they are imprisoned in.
United States of America is a country of many states free of the evil of nationalism. The source of their power is the unity of its public. Europe learned after long experience of wars, rivalry, and nationalism, they got united. China is an other living example of multinational unity. It is the Asian countries specially countries occupied by Muslims, who lost that quality of unity, and were enslaved in the concept of nationalism.

Ghulami ka da prado vi ya da khplo
Ghulami kho ghulami da
Ao ghulami da qomono marg de

There is no signs, that these people so deeply brainwashed in to slavery of nationalism for generations, will rise and demolish the walls of their concentration camps of nationalism.

[Karachi]

i agree with the article, there is too much nationlism in the muslim world despite islam being harsh opponent of it, also yes the british made pretty much every muslim country. However as of know, i dont see any solution. I mean the only solution could be a united islamic land, but i dont see that happening right know because nationlism will creep in, because pretty much every muslim hates each other. Muslims are probably the most divided nations in the world

[Alchemist]

Slave nations cannot understand freedom or the value of freedom. They feel secure in the concentration camps of nationalism. In spite of corruption, killings, crimes, poverty, exploitation, all the evils they are living in, they can't see beyond the cocoons they are imprisoned in.
United States of America is a country of many states free of the evil of nationalism. The source of their power is the unity of its public. Europe learned after long experience of wars, rivalry, and nationalism, they got united. China is an other living example of multinational unity. It is the Asian countries specially countries occupied by Muslims, who lost that quality of unity, and were enslaved in the concept of nationalism.

Ghulami ka da prado vi ya da khplo
Ghulami kho ghulami da
Ao ghulami da qomono marg de

There is no signs, that these people so deeply brainwashed in to slavery of nationalism for generations, will rise and demolish the walls of their concentration camps of nationalism.

America boasts of being "the first nation" to be born of "revolution"...(watched the silent movie birth of a nation?) The myth of it being a "federation of states" is over exaggerated and it is just a propaganda slogan piece used to rub it in the face of other nations. After the civil war the US has moved towards becoming a fascist state ...and today without a doubt it is a fascist state. Today's america is no different then hitler's Germany.


And your beliefs of the European union are also wrong. The european union is a failure by all accounts. It will not last any longer...

When Will The European Union Collapse?


and China is a "multinational unity"? LOL...
it is a one party system... "People's democratic dictatorship" slogan of the communist party of China does not allow for dissent and opposition ...muslim chinese are persecuted in the millions...there is no representation of minorities and you call it a "unity"?


I know you just want to sound cool and hip by giving the radical view ...but you have to be familiar with REALITY before you get lofty expectations. What do you and swordboy hope for? You live in toronto... and he lives in philly ...and you are asking people in the middle east to be come detached from nationalism ...as you two are detached from your own places of residence? How alienated do you feel in your own neighborhood? I am sure you both take great pride in having the passports of your respective countries ...which give you the ability to travel anywhere in the world...but you want the rest to relinquish their own. You both speak the english language and have assimilated to a degree to the west ... but now you want the rest of the world to throw themselves in the melting pot too...like you have ... and just blend into something new and exotic. And who do you suppose would govern this "multinational unity"? The Mahdi? Even if the Mahdi were to arise and unit the muslims in the east ... I am sure neither you nor swordboy would book a ticket to fly to him.


Salam.

[graveyardofempires]

sorry Graveyardofempires wrora; someday we'll have to realize that Afghanistan too as we currently know it was also manufactured and devised out of the plan of Imperialists....

Thats totally not true,Afghans have kept imperialists in check and are the reason for freedom of many countries after crushing empires.for example when the british empire lost wars to Afghans other muslim and non muslim countries were liberated.when russian empire fell many muslim countries such as tajikistan,uzbekistan were able to practice Islam again.the same way many christians could practice their religion because of it.

Afghanistan is not special or any different than Pakistan and it was because of the ignorance of our rulers that we are in the state today, and same applies to Pakistan, India , and Saudi Arabia and all others.

Afghanistan might just be one of the most special countries on the planet,its a unique country with unique history.
since Afghanistan is the unconquered land you can not compare it to pakistan(creation of colonists)India (colonised and used) saudi arabi(totally hypocrites).those countries you mentioned were colonised and nurtured which changed their thinking and these countries submited to their colonists and Afghanistan never did.
which rulers are you talking about?our rulers protected our freedom and honour against invading forces.

Were not really our countries but fabricated by Europeans to turn us against each other or keeps us divided against each other; they did this so they can take advantage of us. If we ever want to progress we have to give up these shackles for a broader more profound cause.

you can say that about pakistan,india,saudi,iraq and other countries but not Afghanistan,we Afghans never were against any other muslim countries but most muslim countries for example pakistan and Iran were threating us,pakistan being part of the british empire(submited)and persians as being shia.


1:Afghanistan has defeated numerous empires causing many countries to be free.
2:they have kept their religion without letting british or americans becoming their imam or exchanging their religion for material gains like saudis,kuwaities,pakis etc.
3:they are hard to manipulate and will never compromise their way of life.
4:they are mentioned in the hadeeth as a special people.

[Bengal_Tiger]

BSMA


Lately many discussions have erupted regarding the eminent future of Pakistan; and often there arises the declaration for the abolishment of Pakistan. While it's legitimate to advocate the dissolution of Pakistan; the motives for it are misguided; The Goal here is not to end Pakistan to promote justice but rather to serve the interests of other Nation-States; where does this benefit us? The Current Nation States of Asia were carved out during the Imperialistic Conquest of the Great Game; this produced the modern countries of Saudi Arabiia,. India, Pakistan and yes even Afghanistan and modern Iran. Prior to the advent of European intrusion and interference these regions became aligned not by National boundaries but regions of authority which bore allegiance to various rulers. Hence we had an Ottoman Empire, Qajarid Empires and Durrani Empires; none of them held officiated centralized nation state names such as Turkey, Afghanistan, Pakhtunistan, Iran, or Hind, other than perhaps names of regions.

In effect this battle between Nation-States and fighting for the boundaries of Nation States is really subservience to the machinations of Imperialism which seeks to maintain disparity and poverty, lack of strength, fortification and legitimate development to ensure the East remains subservient and dependent. Nationalism thus does not actually help the people the Nation State claims to represent but on the contrary the Imperial Design which was seeking to conquest and exploit people in the first place by cultivating divide and rule schemes to keep societies distracted into turning against each other and wasting their resources; allowing Imperial hegemony supremacy and exploitive control.

The Nationalists deviously try to posture themselves as representatives of Native Societies and then attempt to manipulate the masses by advocating collaboration with Imperialistic Entities to work against rival nation states; while simultaneously running the same scheme with other rival nation states. A Perfect example is the Pakistan-Afghanistan conflict manifesting in the form of many vehicles. Taliban, Puppet Regimes, Northern Alliance or the ISI and other elements all somehow connected to the American CIA, British MI6 and other Imperialist institutions.These people who advocate collaborating with Imperialists are really working against their people and use Nationalism as a pretext to serve Imperialism and this is how they maintain dependence rather than collaborate with people who share same natural alliances and connections whether religion or geography; and developing our own independent resources outside of Imperial dependence. Such boundaries only benefit imperialists and not the native regions. They're inventions of interference to assist in the manipulation of rivalries. This is why the advocates of Imperialism

This is why there needs to be dissolution of Nation State boundaries as it is preventative and keeps the global network in perpetual servitude and dependence; and allows resources and energies to be wasted. Those who have tried to oppose such a move only demonstrated they're slaves of people who have tried to colonize the region and hence their move to work along side them and promote their agenda. The more we keep nation state politics the furthere we'll always remain deprived. All Nation States are byproducts of these demarcations and these daermarcations were set in place for a reason; if we are to reverse the damage done we have to undo the mechanisms which led to engendering it.

Hey Scimitar, howya doing dude?

Long time.

Read this:

Interesting... the theme of politics and political power in sectarian societies as a zero-sum game between sectarian groups that Ive noticed in many of these articles: this is exactly how the dynamics of group conflict is framed in realistic group conflict theory in social psychology. In Sherifs notorious Robbers cave study, in-group formation (and these were artificial groups of children's teams in a camp) by itself did not entail between group conflict -its semblance did, however, emerge spontaneously, with all the trappings of human tribalism including out-group hatred/hostility, after the groups came to compete in zero sum games over resources (prizes). Equally interesting was that the group tension was successfully diffused by getting them to play (positive sum) non-zero sum games where cooperation was mutually beneficial.
http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Sherif/

Ethnic groups are the dominant naturally occurring human in-group (the in-group hierarchy in the real world tends to be based on genetic relatedness thus ethnic interests triumph over sectarian interests, which explains why the Kurds are more inclined toward separatism than the sectarian Arabs). The ingenuity of the ethnic nation state -the best form of social organization in human history- is in fact contained in this simplicity: ethnic zero-sum games over economic and political resources are minimized since groups are circumscribed within an agreed territory, confined to an agreed economic and political resource pool. On the other hand, international trade, for example, the main form of interaction between nation states, as the great economist David Ricardo famously first demonstrated (with the comparative vs absolute advantage distinction), is a non-zero sum game that relatively benefits all states involved. Sherifs Robbers cave experiment is in a way a microcosm of international relations: group conflict typically emerges as a consequence of ethnic or sectarian, that is group, zero sum games (e.g. Malikis exploitation of the Sunnis) and group and national alliances are formed within structures of positive sum non-zero sum games (e.g. economic unions).

This is exactly what the fuss is all about in Afghan politics currently: both sides expect that political power in a centralized, sectarian and ethnically divisive state like Afghanistan is a zero- sum situation with the consequence that the losing ethnic populations will ultimately be marginalized; power-sharing and/or federalism will diffuse this to some extent but the best solution will always remain to completely remove the means of competition in the first place: the best way to minimize group conflict in the real world is to remove the means of zero-sum interactions between human groups, within the context of politics, this means the formation of ethnically and/or religious homogeneous nation states.

Analysts who are touting the idea that Iraq can be kept intact are essentially asking to reassemble humpty dumpty. Their modus operandi seems to be either to ascribe virtually all the woes of that intrinsically failed state to either Maliki or western imperialism / American intervention (this is not to say that these things did not exacerbate the situation) as if Iraq was the multicultural utopia that seems to exist in the wet dreams of western leftists, prior to the American war. Reality check: ethnic and sectarian group conflict, with genocide (the Al-Anfal campaign) and all that other lovely stuff, has pervaded "Iraq" since the creation of its artificial borders by Britain and France in the first place (Skyes-Picot agreement). I think that in the light of Iraqs sectarian history, the burden of proof is on the idealists to furnish a case that sectarian and divided Iraq can work, and a few emotionally loaded anecdotes about inter-mixing and whatnot is not sufficient. As Carl Sagan would say "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

http://www.pashtunforums.com/showthread.php?p=748573#post748573

I'm sure you'll find it an interesting (re)-read and you might even be familiar with the person who wrote it.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Good grief I must have caused some serious emotional and psychological scars in the hearts and minds of the Bangladeshi heartland. Since they keep believing that I'm all these personas and all. So much for being the "Actor" rather than the "reactor". Thanks for putting me in control.

p.s. Tor_Khan has some amusing words to say about you, if only you knew Pashto.