Taliban

[qunduz92]

am not breaking talib rules because im not living under any talib rule smart one

[کیش]

Qunduz 92

Your hilarious. I will be going to AfgPakistan this summer (inshallah), maybe you could give your friends a heads up, so they can behead me. Just tell them not to use a dull kitchen knife

[qunduz92]

Qunduz 92

Your hilarious. I will be going to AfgPakistan this summer (inshallah), maybe you could give your friends a heads up, so they can behead me. Just tell them not to use a dull kitchen knife

depends on what ur going for ...if your gonna go and waterboard pashtuns then "my friends" can handle you themselves no need for me

[ghundal]

i think i got unknownprince's own stupidity as my new sig.

when I say all Afghans, I mean it as the real Afghans who are opposed to the foreigners, not the servants who listen to Spanta, Atmar, and Saleh.

The real ones. You pick ALL AFGHANS, and continue to make silly arguments. The Taliban are rising again out of the chaos. Funny how history repeats itself.

The Taliban support is increasing and their reach has spread throughout Afghanistan. As before, they were a response to the chaos of the 90s, not a part of it, and today the same thing is happening.

[کیش]

depends on what ur going for ...if your gonna go and waterboard pashtuns then "my friends" can handle you themselves no need for me

Why on earth would I do that? Am not a CIA officer.

[qunduz92]

Why on earth would I do that? Am not a CIA officer.

you dont have to be one.. as translators engage in it as well

[randolph85]

when I say all Afghans, I mean it as the real Afghans who are opposed to the foreigners, not the servants who listen to Spanta, Atmar, and Saleh.

The real ones. You pick ALL AFGHANS, and continue to make silly arguments. The Taliban are rising again out of the chaos. Funny how history repeats itself.

The Taliban support is increasing and their reach has spread throughout Afghanistan. As before, they were a response to the chaos of the 90s, not a part of it, and today the same thing is happening.

i pick all afghans? in many of ur posts u say "all afghans....and thats a fact" then u after debating about polls where u cant back up ur claims, u tell me its figurative speech. u dont use figurative speech when it comes to statistics. so now we are talking about the "real" afghans, as in the afghans who believe what ur saying, all others are not real lol what the.

history is repeating itself again because there are afghans too stupid to learn from their own history.

[کیش]

you dont have to be one.. as translators engage in it as well

I don't know of any of my family members who have witnesses any kind of torture as you say. My uncle is returning from Kunar tonight, all ask him again what he has seen. One thing he mentions is that Kunar lacks running water and schools, as well as most of the people are only interested in picking up arms.

I had a member who even worked at Bagram prison for one year non-stop and never witnessed any kind of torture. The inmates were actually glad to have a Pashtun doing the translating then anyone else. What Happens in the secret prisons, I don't know.

And I am not a translator, if I was, I would say I was/am one. If I wanted to be one, I could have been one years ago.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

It is a complex picture. I think that the assessment that "all Afghans support the Taliban" or the opposite side's assessment that: "all Afghans are so sick and tired of fighting that they just want the stability Kabul offers them" needs to be historically honed and proven with accurate data.

In their birth place, Kandahar, they were reasonably accepted. Moreover, their issues with girl's schools do appear to be rooted in a commonly strict combination of Pashtunwali with shariah law being an excuse to further this. The role that culture itself plays in this is very easily provable. However, the key question is: Was this innate or was this something bought new by the Taliban?

Take Zahir Shah's era... even then, if one goes to the village landscape south of Kabul and totals the number of women that attended college from the rural areas, I am sure that the number of women allowed to reach high school literacy and subsequently college was abysmal. I am willing to wager that men far exceeded women in terms of high school equivalency. The same goes for the KP side of the border.

Per this paragraph it looks like Qunduz is not that far off in her assertions of what the Taliban were attempting to create in terms of women's education in light of their rural roots (majority of the Taliban derived from the villages). They were not dead set on NO education... but rather wanted to pursue it in a way that was culturally and (in their view) religiously appropriate:

"At a nursing school on the grounds of Mir Weis Hospital, female students and teachers this week expressed grave concern for their safety in the streets. Saying they feared being accosted and molested by gunmen, they begged the school's director for door-to-door bus service so they would not have to walk or wait outdoors.

During the Taliban era, the school received special permission to teach girls after agreeing to follow strict Islamic rules, with no men allowed on the premises, no music or parties and special curtained buses bringing veiled students to class. Now, the girls said, the atmosphere inside the school is more relaxed, but the conditions outside are far more frightening.

"We are so confused and worried. There are gunmen everywhere, and there is no stability," said Khatira, 18, a nursing student. "I hate guns, and I only want to study. I was born in a time of fighting, and I never saw any stable conditions except with the Taliban. In the time of extremism, I could study safely. Now I can't.""

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer

So I think this is a little bit disingenous to deny that 1) A large swathe of the Afghan populace did respect the Taliban as something that bought security and generally created a situation where they could continue to live their rural, rustic way of life and
to make the false assertion that 2) They were dead set on taking all women back to the stone age because this is something that was new they decided to introduce into Afghanistan.


However, even within Pashtun areas, there were large enough groups that opposed the Taliban ascendency, including strict fighters like Abdul Rasul Sayyaf. What this generally shows me is that the more proper statement is not that all Afghans want the Taliban... rather, its that Afghans may take your money, but in the end they do what they want regardless of who they appear to support. Hekmetyaar also fought the Taliban... it may be OK to say that groups like these are willing to align with the Taliban to ensure that no outside power imposes their nonnative rules on the people. Central Intelligence even surmised that Sayyaf feeds insurgents valuable strategic info and gives them shelter... but since he has publicly "accepted" a governmental role... he is a bit untouchable.

Per the riots in Mazar, the Afghan populace does not want foreign overlords... however Mazar is also not accomodating to Taliban incursions either.

The ultimate question for me has always been what I stated above regarding which of the players involved best represents and does not disrupt the way of life the rural masses. To me, the anti Taliban historian's assessment of the situation is what I have always believed:

I refer you to Dr. Kakar's text (an anti taliban Afghan historian) regarding how the rural Afghans functioned under the Taliban:

http://www.institute-for-afghan-stud...ntro_kakar.htm

"Although taliban have never been, until recent times, at the pinnacle of military and political power, they are not new to Afghanistan. They have been a component of the religious establishment and have always ways lived in the shadow of other military, political, and economic groups. Mullah Shor Bazar, an Afghan fighter known for inflicting heavy losses on the British during the Third Anglo-Afghan war of 1919, was also a talib, as were Mirwais Khan Hotaki, and Mullah Mushki Alam, who fought against the British occupation of Afghanistan. During the national struggle against the Soviet invaders, taliban fought alongside the Mujahideen mainly under the leadership of Mohammad Nabi, one of the seven sanctioned Mujahideen leaders in Pakistan (also known as "Peshawar Tanzeem" Leaders)."

"In reality, the traditional way of life in villages has changed little by Taliban's rule. The situation of Afghans in the countryside controlled by the Taliban has improved because of increased peace and security, giving them the opportunity to rebuild after two decades of war."

Regarding the lack of peacekeepers possibly fomenting the civil war, I would somewhat disagree. Instead, I feel that the continued involvement and attempts to subvert the will of the Afghan people status post the Russian war was what fomented the civi war:


"While the assertion that Washington and the West Abandoned the Afghans after the Soviet withdrawal is now accepted as fact, it is an fact entirely inaccurate. From the exit of the last Red Army trooper in 1989 until well after the Afghan communists' defeat in 1992, the United States, Britain, Germany, and the UN worked diligently to install a regime in Kabul that would include representatives of all Afghan groups-- so long as they were not Islamists and had not fought and bled to drive out the USSR. At one point, for example, Washington had three diplomats of ambassadorial rank and one special envoy--Peter Tomsen, Robert Oakley, Phyllis Oakley, and Zalmay Khalilzad--working to produce a regime that would include sophisticated, English speaking, secular Afghans, Afghan technocrats; former communists--even former Afghan communist president Najibullah; supporters of the deposted Afghan king and Afghans who had spent the war making money in America, Europe, Iran, and India. In other words, the West was ready to consider anyone save those who had carried AK47s and killed Soviets. Indeed, a major reason a post Soviet Afghan civil war began was because those who had fought saw their hard-won right to rule being handed by Westerners to Afghans who were nominal Muslims and who had chosen to sit out the war." - Scheuer

Also, the Balkans is a clear example of where NATO troops supposedly "keep the peace." Yet that involves permanent bases and never leaving.

[faye]

so under the taliban women had secret schools because..............

[ghundal]

It is a complex picture. I think that the assessment that "all Afghans support the Taliban" or the opposite side's assessment that: "all Afghans are so sick and tired of fighting that they just want the stability Kabul offers them" needs to be historically honed and proven with accurate data.

In their birth place, Kandahar, they were reasonably accepted. Moreover, their issues with girl's schools do appear to be rooted in a commonly strict combination of Pashtunwali with shariah law being an excuse to further this. The role that culture itself plays in this is very easily provable. However, the key question is: Was this innate or was this something bought new by the Taliban?

Take Zahir Shah's era... even then, if one goes to the village landscape south of Kabul and totals the number of women that attended college from the rural areas, I am sure that the number of women allowed to reach high school literacy and subsequently college was abysmal. I am willing to wager that men far exceeded women in terms of high school equivalency. The same goes for the KP side of the border.

Per this paragraph it looks like Qunduz is not that far off in her assertions of what the Taliban were attempting to create in terms of women's education in light of their rural roots (majority of the Taliban derived from the villages). They were not dead set on NO education... but rather wanted to pursue it in a way that was culturally and (in their view) religiously appropriate:

"At a nursing school on the grounds of Mir Weis Hospital, female students and teachers this week expressed grave concern for their safety in the streets. Saying they feared being accosted and molested by gunmen, they begged the school's director for door-to-door bus service so they would not have to walk or wait outdoors.

During the Taliban era, the school received special permission to teach girls after agreeing to follow strict Islamic rules, with no men allowed on the premises, no music or parties and special curtained buses bringing veiled students to class. Now, the girls said, the atmosphere inside the school is more relaxed, but the conditions outside are far more frightening.

"We are so confused and worried. There are gunmen everywhere, and there is no stability," said Khatira, 18, a nursing student. "I hate guns, and I only want to study. I was born in a time of fighting, and I never saw any stable conditions except with the Taliban. In the time of extremism, I could study safely. Now I can't.""

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A51578-2002Jan15?language=printer

So I think this is a little bit disingenous to deny that 1) A large swathe of the Afghan populace did respect the Taliban as something that bought security and generally created a situation where they could continue to live their rural, rustic way of life and
to make the false assertion that 2) They were dead set on taking all women back to the stone age because this is something that was new they decided to introduce into Afghanistan.


However, even within Pashtun areas, there were large enough groups that opposed the Taliban ascendency, including strict fighters like Abdul Rasul Sayyaf. What this generally shows me is that the more proper statement is not that all Afghans want the Taliban... rather, its that Afghans may take your money, but in the end they do what they want regardless of who they appear to support. Hekmetyaar also fought the Taliban... it may be OK to say that groups like these are willing to align with the Taliban to ensure that no outside power imposes their nonnative rules on the people. Central Intelligence even surmised that Sayyaf feeds insurgents valuable strategic info and gives them shelter... but since he has publicly "accepted" a governmental role... he is a bit untouchable.

Per the riots in Mazar, the Afghan populace does not want foreign overlords... however Mazar is also not accomodating to Taliban incursions either.

The ultimate question for me has always been what I stated above regarding which of the players involved best represents and does not disrupt the way of life the rural masses. To me, the anti Taliban historian's assessment of the situation is what I have always believed:

I refer you to Dr. Kakar's text (an anti taliban Afghan historian) regarding how the rural Afghans functioned under the Taliban:

http://www.institute-for-afghan-stud...ntro_kakar.htm

"Although taliban have never been, until recent times, at the pinnacle of military and political power, they are not new to Afghanistan. They have been a component of the religious establishment and have always ways lived in the shadow of other military, political, and economic groups. Mullah Shor Bazar, an Afghan fighter known for inflicting heavy losses on the British during the Third Anglo-Afghan war of 1919, was also a talib, as were Mirwais Khan Hotaki, and Mullah Mushki Alam, who fought against the British occupation of Afghanistan. During the national struggle against the Soviet invaders, taliban fought alongside the Mujahideen mainly under the leadership of Mohammad Nabi, one of the seven sanctioned Mujahideen leaders in Pakistan (also known as "Peshawar Tanzeem" Leaders)."

"In reality, the traditional way of life in villages has changed little by Taliban's rule. The situation of Afghans in the countryside controlled by the Taliban has improved because of increased peace and security, giving them the opportunity to rebuild after two decades of war."

Regarding the lack of peacekeepers possibly fomenting the civil war, I would somewhat disagree. Instead, I feel that the continued involvement and attempts to subvert the will of the Afghan people status post the Russian war was what fomented the civi war:


"While the assertion that Washington and the West Abandoned the Afghans after the Soviet withdrawal is now accepted as fact, it is an fact entirely inaccurate. From the exit of the last Red Army trooper in 1989 until well after the Afghan communists' defeat in 1992, the United States, Britain, Germany, and the UN worked diligently to install a regime in Kabul that would include representatives of all Afghan groups-- so long as they were not Islamists and had not fought and bled to drive out the USSR. At one point, for example, Washington had three diplomats of ambassadorial rank and one special envoy--Peter Tomsen, Robert Oakley, Phyllis Oakley, and Zalmay Khalilzad--working to produce a regime that would include sophisticated, English speaking, secular Afghans, Afghan technocrats; former communists--even former Afghan communist president Najibullah; supporters of the deposted Afghan king and Afghans who had spent the war making money in America, Europe, Iran, and India. In other words, the West was ready to consider anyone save those who had carried AK47s and killed Soviets. Indeed, a major reason a post Soviet Afghan civil war began was because those who had fought saw their hard-won right to rule being handed by Westerners to Afghans who were nominal Muslims and who had chosen to sit out the war." - Scheuer

Also, the Balkans is a clear example of where NATO troops supposedly "keep the peace." Yet that involves permanent bases and never leaving.

In regards to the bottom part about those who sat out the war against the Soviets, Spanta claims to have been part of the resistance at his university (France or Germany). He printed newspapers for the resistance LOL.

Randolph, you have another chance to reply to Barakzai.

Basically, rural Afghanistan already lives a life which the Taliban tries to put forth in urban areas. The vast majority of Afghans live in rural areas.

Anyways, reply to him, and stop picking at words.

[randolph85]

ghundal, u need others to fight ur battles for u?

his post basically goes against everything u were trying to say in this whole thread. u said there was no womens education during talib days because of rapists and insecurity, barakzai posts an example that there was peace during their time in power and they didnt allow widespread womens educations because of their beliefs.

he also mentions that not all afghans support the taliban but according to u all afghans support the taliban lol

[ghundal]

ghundal, u need others to fight ur battles for u?

his post basically goes against everything u were trying to say in this whole thread. u said there was no womens education during talib days because of rapists and insecurity, barakzai posts an example that there was peace during their time in power and they didnt allow widespread womens educations because of their beliefs.

he also mentions that not all afghans support the taliban but according to u all afghans support the taliban lol

stop following me around, and re-read his post. It does not say the Taliban were against womens education in general. It was due to safety concerns mostly. I say that meaning all real Afghans, the ones that are serving the foreigners do not count in the first place.

Reply to the other post of Barzakzai that you ran away from.

You will keep biting away at nonsense semantics because thats all you know how to do.

True Afghans are against the foreign presence and support opposition to the foreign presence. All Afghans.

[ghundal]

Read this. I made it bold for you Taliban!
Per this paragraph it looks like Qunduz is not that far off in her assertions of what the Taliban were attempting to create in terms of women's education in light of their rural roots (majority of the Taliban derived from the villages). They were not dead set on NO education... but rather wanted to pursue it in a way that was culturally and (in their view) religiously appropriate:

"At a nursing school on the grounds of Mir Weis Hospital, female students and teachers this week expressed grave concern for their safety in the streets. Saying they feared being accosted and molested by gunmen, they begged the school's director for door-to-door bus service so they would not have to walk or wait outdoors.

During the Taliban era, the school received special permission to teach girls after agreeing to follow strict Islamic rules, with no men allowed on the premises, no music or parties and special curtained buses bringing veiled students to class. Now, the girls said, the atmosphere inside the school is more relaxed, but the conditions outside are far more frightening.

[ghundal]

Food for thought . Another example showing why people want the Taliban back. It disproves everything you say about Taliban being against education for girls LOL LOL

"We are so confused and worried. There are gunmen everywhere, and there is no stability," said Khatira, 18, a nursing student. "I hate guns, and I only want to study. I was born in a time of fighting, and I never saw any stable conditions except with the Taliban. In the time of extremism, I could study safely. Now I can't.""