Mixed Discussion: Jinnah, Drinking and Creation of Pakistan

[Master Khan]

Jinnah didnt take any land away from the British? did Jinnah fight for this Land, it was GIVEN to HIM by the BRITISH! who counted the referendum, who supported Jinnahs Muslim leauge? it was the British, Who founded the Pakistan Army? he was a british, tell me a single war did Jinnah fight to free Muslims from the hands of KAffir christians? not a single one!

At the end of the day he created pakistan and a muslim state...sadly after him its all rubbish.
But what Abdur Rahman was really wrong buy Selling us to India.

[pir_Rokhan]

lemme tell you something if pashtuns had one person like Jinnah right now he could turn the fate of this entire nation

This is what he did, muslims were more divided under more problems than pashtuns are now..He outwitted every single leader and carved out a homeland for muslims in seven years

You guys might disagree with me on here, but you know that if we had even one person like Jinnah we wouldnt be in this Sh***

Max

I don’t know whether you are a genuine Afghan or Pakistani pretending to be one, however I would give you my honest opinion.

This carving out a separate homeland is a misconception about him as well as Iqbal.I don’t want go into history however Jinnah was for a confederation with Muslim autonomous provinces for Muslims to ensure their rights. It was British who divided the Muslims of India hence breaking their political power not Jinnah.
As far as the personality of Jinnah is concerned, I think the positive points of his persona are discussed by Jaswant Singh and there is nothing bad in it as he was for confederation not a separate country. I am more interested in his personality as a leader and now a founder of a country.

You see never has it happened in history as far as I know that a man who revered another culture and did not own his own culture would be able to found a state with a durable, genuine and original nationhood. This fact was realized by Gandhi that is why he used the concept of Cultural Revolution. Even Mao tse Tung used the concept of Cultural Revolution to bring the change. Jinnah might have realized it and he tried to put an effort too but i think it was too late and then his life dint allow him.

The contradiction in his character was and is visible till now in Pakistan. It was claimed to be in the name of Islam and carved from Indian and Afghan terrtories.Later Jinnah said that Pakistan would be a secular country with religion not interfering into the affairs of state however as the very nomenclature was religious and the ,movement was based in religion though by secular people so it was very difficult practically to tell the people and his own people that he just used the name of religion as a slogan and was not serious about making it a theocratic state as it turned out to be.

Secondly, any leadership in history unless it is backed by an ideological party which has a certain ideology for statecraft can never survive the test of time and Jinnah’s was also a one man show practically hence we see that Muslim league turned out to be a fake and non principled party with literally no representation from the masses, middle class or from the intelligentsia. Since 1947 Muslim league has been the most volatile party mostly consisting of the feudal class of Punjab who are more interested in their vested interests and exploiting the resources of other nations and provinces than the ideological foundations, if any, of Pakistan.

It is due to these reasons that in my opinion neither can Pakistanis own Jinnah as he was neither a genuine Sindhi, nor a genuine religious person. He was from elite Indian class educated abroad and professionally good lawyer who had ability to plead a case successfully which he did, however it takes a bit more to be a leader than to be a successful lawyer.

[Max]

Thats one thing i find very weird about this website, if i agree with someone im cool..if i argue against something you guys believe the first thing i hear is are you punjabi ? are you this that ?

Why the hell should i have to explain to you guys who i am ?

Argue about the argument, dont bring my identity to this..I know who i am and am darn proud of it, mind your own business

And as for Jinnah, i dont care who he was .. i look at what he did and no sane person in the world can deny that he was one of the greatest minds of this subcontinent, had we pashtuns a political leader like him we would never have been in this condition

I dont know if he ate pork or not, to me its irrelevant to me whats relevant is his pollitical approach, to me what matters is what he did..and God knows that Afghanistan needed a leader like that.

gandhis and what not they're teachings look good on paper, this is a cold ruthless world we need someone who can be just as calculating, just as smart, just as diverse to guide us out of this

[pir_Rokhan]

Thats one thing i find very weird about this website, if i agree with someone im cool..if i argue against something you guys believe the first thing i hear is are you punjabi ? are you this that ?

Why the hell should i have to explain to you guys who i am ?

Argue about the argument, dont bring my identity to this..I know who i am and am darn proud of it, mind your own business

And as for Jinnah, i dont care who he was .. i look at what he did and no sane person in the world can deny that he was one of the greatest minds of this subcontinent, had we pashtuns a political leader like him we would never have been in this condition

I dont know if he ate pork or not, to me its irrelevant to me whats relevant is his pollitical approach, to me what matters is what he did..and God knows that Afghanistan needed a leader like that.

gandhis and what not they're teachings look good on paper, this is a cold ruthless world we need someone who can be just as calculating, just as smart, just as diverse to guide us out of this

I talked about the argument my friend.The intial opinion was just my skeptic gutt feeling. And Yes I do not mind if you are Credere or Talal now calling yourself Max or whatever. I dont know why you have to do all this. We respect your opinion and you have all the right to advocate your opinion as we do..

Now I refused to accept your claim and gave you argument you just restated your claim again in your sensatised emotional status without bothering to pay a serious heed to my argument.

Could you please give it a read with a calm head.

In another post I would elaborate what type of leader Afghans need and why.With all due repects to MAJ his experiment has even failed in Pakisatn which is a nascent country with a hardly 40 years of history [ofcourse this is not the Pakistna it used to be in 1947] hence there is no question of wishign the same failure for Afghanistan despite a lot of other misfortunes which has already fallen on this country.

The laws of history ,sciology and cultural engineeing do not allow us to wish for a leader like MAJ for Afghanistan whatever reverence Pakistanis might have for him rightly or wrongly.

[Bengal_Tiger]

Jinnah was a British agent who was part of the elite Indian "Muslim" elite which included his fellow Hindustani, Liquat Ali Khan.

Central Indian landlords like Liquat Ali Khan were used to power and privilege and wanted to maintain that. However Congress was a socialist party and did not believe in feudalism and these ideas spread to the Hindu peasants of central India. So the "Muslim" landlords of central India supported the idea of Pakistan. The new state would be dominated by Urdu-speakers from India, the capital would be Karachi which would be dominated by migrants from India, it was to be an Indian-run state in the same way Ashkenazi (European Jews) are the ruling elite in India.

Jinnah's grandfather was a Hindu and he himself was a whiskey drinker and pork eater, used by the British to break up India in the same way the British created permanent conflict in the middle east with the Israel-Palestine problem.

Ismailis are not Muslims for a variety of reasons as they reject 5 times prayer, reject fasting in Ramadan and Hajj etc.

Anyway the racist ideology of Jinnah and others has proven to be ideologically incoherent and Bengalis smashed the US-supported Punjabi/Hindustani army in 1971 and it seems Sindhis, Balochis and Pashtuns will be following the way of their Muslim brothers in Bengal.

There are a lot of things I could write about Jinnah, but in essence he was a very wicked, evil and manipulative man who caused huge bloodshed and death.

However Allah is the best of judges.

[Max]

I talked about the argument my friend.The intial opinion was just my skeptic gutt feeling. And Yes I do not mind if you are Credere or Talal now calling yourself Max or whatever. I dont know why you have to do all this. We respect your opinion and you have all the right to advocate your opinion as we do..

Now I refused to accept your claim and gave you argument you just restated your claim again in your sensatised emotional status without bothering to pay a serious heed to my argument.

Could you please give it a read with a calm head.

In another post I would elaborate what type of leader Afghans need and why.With all due repects to MAJ his experiment has even failed in Pakisatn which is a nascent country with a hardly 40 years of history [ofcourse this is not the Pakistna it used to be in 1947] hence there is no question of wishign the same failure for Afghanistan despite a lot of other misfortunes which has already fallen on this country.

The laws of history ,sciology and cultural engineeing do not allow us to wish for a leader like MAJ for Afghanistan whatever reverence Pakistanis might have for him rightly or wrongly.

wth is creadere and whose Talal ? dude i got respect for you cuz you sometimes post good stuff..this kinda stuff is really low.. i can call you a talib, ofcourse i doubt you would mind that

Im one of those nutjob pashtuns who try to find the fault in themselves because they know that no matter what other do to us unless we ourselves are strong we wont get anywhere

And one more thing, i dont "like" Jinnah, but my liking someone or not liking someone has nothing to do with their qualities and achievements. Bacha Khan remained silent, he took the peaceful way out what did he achieve for pashtuns ? he was a great man, one of the few great men we've had but where did his kind heartedness lead us ?

I try to look at the ugly realities of this world, you guys think we live in a just world...where rights are given, NO rights arent given..there is no such thing as brotherhood. If your weak they will keep coming, if it wasnt Pakisan it would have been Iran, if it wasnt Iran it would have been russians, if not russians chineese..We have Bullsh**ted our way through half a century without building any systems, any form of governance, and that does make me mad..We needed someone with some political sight someone who could bring together as a nation.

and when i say all this i am a non-pashtun ? im this im that ? this is how much tolerance we got

[Espresso]

i think jinnah's two nation theory did more harm to muslims then anybody else lets look it this way to day muslims are divided in 3 differrent countries . indian muslims have their problems, bangladeshis have their problems partition has only increased those problems, kashmiris are suffering as a result of it, baluchis have yet not accepted pakistan and has been facing numerous army operation's from the 50's to date, the fate of pakhtunkhwa are still a question between afghanisthan and pakistan (durrand line) the unresolved status after the 99 years lease gets expired is still pending. Fata,swat are in a literal mess , the only good i see is for sindh and punjab rural for landlords, urban karachi/lahore for businessmen,rich expacts, islamabad for army genarals other then that i have failed to find any positive outcome that might have came out of the 1947 partition.

[Dreamer]

hahaha the aga khan is God to them... I mean is it any wonder jinnahs daughter did the dirty and ran off with a christian (former zoroastrian) when the aga khans daughter married a non ishamelie

[Dreamer]

lol so ismailis worship agha khan?

pretty much yep

[khyaal]

wth is creadere and whose Talal ? dude i got respect for you cuz you sometimes post good stuff..this kinda stuff is really low.. i can call you a talib, ofcourse i doubt you would mind that

btw, how did you come to know the word Talib which is known only to native Pashtuns? You will never find this word in Western media, even Punjabi media use the word Taliban for the singular case.

[Son of Mountains]

I hate all of you liars...............

[Toramana]

Here is a US secret report about Liaquat Ali Khan, another of Pakistan's founding fathers. He drank, ate port, and even danced to the beats of drum.

http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/pakist...15june1948.htm

[Zhagh]

but however ANP are nothing but a bunch of Nim pashtin/ Half Pukhtuns. Most of them are little murtads who are Pakistani than Pashtun.

Please Stick to the topic and Stop showing your frustration towards the ANP.I understand your problem and i personally know you since 2 years .
I will request the moderators and admins to not allow any one to use this new forum against any Pashtun Nationalist Party...thanx

[Espresso]

Quoted for truth.

Jinnah had love for his fellow Muslims. He wanted to give their aptitudes an equal opportunity in a country for Muslims.

.

But Jinnah wanted to help the Muslims, that is all I care for.

In such times we should cherish what we get and build on it.

Action speaks louder then words jinnah's religiously manipulative political skills were as of today have proven to be counterproductive to the concern & well being of muslims in the Indian-Subcontinent tell me how did the creating of a country based on (Pakistaniyat) its a strong kind of Nationalism under the pretext of Islam helped muslims in anyway ? the bitter truth of the matter is that now you have muslims divided in three separate zone's India,Pakistan,Bangladesh instead of a single zone e.g undivided india their population divided lessening their strength and putting them through the misery that they are sufferring now as a result of the partition of India making it contrary as to what some pakistanis say that pakistan was created because muslims were in frear of a Hindu dominations i tend to disagree a more accurate analysis is that Muslims are weaker NOW then before, after the glorious creation of "Pakistan"
i say this because i am a muslim originally from the indian subcontinent region.

[erlangner]

Jinnah himself and his struggle is so much controversial. It is quoted and interpreted completely different on 180 degrees in Pakistan and the remaining world. Some scholars in Pakistan like Dr safdar mehmood and dr israr tried their best to prove he was very much religious person, however others are there who are proving him a secular politician. Both claim to be Jinnah lovers.
However there are other scholars who deny his struggle as the real struggle in politics. They claim he was a puppet in Britains hands.
That is why he was given such a gesture thta he is a great leader equalling Gandhi, however he did not have the capability. It was the reason why he was unable to dismiss the firts army chief although he refused to obey his orders.

As far as his private life is concerned, like drinking, eating pig, marrying parsi girl etc are his private things, and we are not answerable for his actions.

But above all what he was, he have had qualities therefore he was choosen by Britains as he has the abilities to bring their plans into actions.