"Durrand line ne manoo" - Lar aw bar demostration in Britain.

[ComradePashtun]

Wrora,

I hope this will happen. But give me one strong motivation, or perhaps the second too.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Wrora,

I hope this will happen. But give me one strong motivation, or perhaps the second too.

Look at it this, beside the rhetoric and all, it is a common market economically culturally and to an extent politically speaking. If Afghanistan and Pashtunkhwa can gain their respective stability and autonomy, they will eventually start aligning themselves. There is already cross movement and it is just a matter of properly materializing it. We can't rely on pointless slogans, although they feel good. We also have to look at the area around us. I don't think a extremely strong Pakistan state vis a vis their military/intel will benefit either side. Both sides will lose if there is a repeat of the 90s (which I am very doubtful). In that case we should push for stability in Afghanistan and greater autonomy of Pashtunkhwa (unity as well between north and south)...i.e. a more de-centralized Pakistan. I don't see any other route beneficial for Pashtuns/Afghans or their unity.

If we assume a chaotic next years then I think eventually circumstance will push us together, but will that be beneficial or will be able to stomach it?

[ComradePashtun]

BLS,

Your answer is very abstract and hard to analyse: culturaly, and to an extend politically? How so? Afghanistan has been stable before, in fact in the past more stable than Pakistan. And which cross movement are you talking about and how exactly can that property be cemented?

I strongly disagree with your chaos theory, things couldn't get worse than the status-quo and the situation of past 10 years. God forbid I couldn't ask for more.

Well answer my question in regards to a main motiff that will bring about the strong motivation and then obviously other factors will be also mutually helpful that will eventually break Pakistan and the Pashtun population there will join Afghanistan.

What will be that one strong central motivation, and why hasn't that not been there throughout the history of the two countries?

[BLS_1919v2.0]

BLS,

Your answer is very abstract and hard to analyse: culturaly, and to an extend politically? How so? Afghanistan has been stable before, in fact in the past more stable than Pakistan. And which cross movement are you talking about and how exactly can that property be cemented?

I strongly disagree with your chaos theory, things couldn't get worse than the status-quo and the situation of past 10 years. God forbid I couldn't ask for more.

Well answer my question in regards to a main motiff that will bring about the strong motivation and then obviously other factors will be also mutually helpful that will eventually break Pakistan and the Pashtun population there will join

Culturally, well it s self-explanatory no? Politically to an extent is from the fact that they have certain political circumstances that are nowadays similar - increased taliban, pakistan strategic depth theory, etc. Due to the his (in my opinion) there are certain political agendas that Pashtuns on both sides can agree are not in their benefit.

Well Pashtuns of Afghanistan have settled in Pashtunkhwa and have family back home, there is also business flowing through the two areas. So by cemented I basically am talking about increased trade, investment, music/media, etc.

Those days were different, it was a cold war atmosphere, and I don't think we can apply that stability to todays.

About chaos, it isn't a theory, rather a scenario. In an event of increased destabilization, then I think circumstance will push them. Having said that I don't want that to happen. I don't see any benefit to it.

[ComradePashtun]

Yes culturlly we the same, how can that be a motivation for Pashtun to break away from Pakistan. Give me an example of a precedence with other culturlly similar people divided by border and culture as being the main denominator for the unity i.e. Kurds, Farsiwans, Uzbeks, Panjabis etc. Politically Pashtuns on both sides have been part distict poitical cultures that is a norm to an extend that their societies are structured on the bases of that political culture.

How and in what ways are the days of the cold war differnt to today or tomorrow that will render this posibility?

Even if there were more chaos Pakistani Pashtuns will only further look toward Islamabad as under even greater degree of instability Afghanistan will be no soother. If anything many or majority of Pakistani Pashutns think that instability is only spilling over from Afghanistan otherwise their lives are or would be happy.

There are only around two million Afghans in Pakistan and guaranteed the sooner Afghansitan is stable enough that can offer them the livelyhood that being a Muhajir offers them, they wont have a second thought to head back. Economically aren't Pakistan Pashtun integrated to the mainstream Pakistani economy that will be fretfull of any consequent that could cause them a day of loss? And those Afghans doing business with or in Pakistan not enmeshed in to the same mainstream Pakistani economy?

By the way, what is the economic interdependance between Afghanistan and Pashtunkhwa other than Pashtunkhwa being a trade and transit route between Afghan products in to Pakistan and Panjab and Karachi based industrial good to Afghanistan?

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Yes culturlly we the same, how can that be a motivation for Pashtun to break away from Pakistan. Give me an example of a precedence with other culturlly similar people divided by border and culture as being the main denominator for the unity i.e. Kurds, Farsiwans, Uzbeks, Panjabis etc. Politically Pashtuns on both sides have been part distict poitical cultures that is a norm to an extend that their societies are structured on the bases of that political culture.

How and in what ways are the days of the cold war differnt to today or tomorrow that will render this posibility?

Even if there were more chaos Pakistani Pashtuns will only further look toward Islamabad as under even greater degree of instability Afghanistan will be no soother. If anything many or majority of Pakistani Pashutns think that instability is only spilling over from Afghanistan otherwise their lives are or would be happy.

There are only around two million Afghans in Pakistan and guaranteed the sooner Afghansitan is stable enough that can offer them the livelyhood that being a Muhajir offers them, they wont have a second thought to head back. Economically aren't Pakistan Pashtun integrated to the mainstream Pakistani economy that will be fretfull of any consequent that could cause them a day of loss? And those Afghans doing business with or in Pakistan not enmeshed in to the same mainstream Pakistani economy?

By the way, what is the economic interdependance between Afghanistan and Pashtunkhwa other than Pashtunkhwa being a trade and transit route between Afghan products in to Pakistan and Panjab and Karachi based industrial good to Afghanistan?

Well one can't use any of those as precedent since they have their own distinct political issues, and in some instances (minus the kurds) they have had no real desire, not even politically. Panjabis are divided by their religion, Farsiwaan seem to be split religiously, politically and even culturally. Uzbeks are just as similar. So I don't see how any of those can be used as a base for precedent for Pashtuns.

Regarding political distinctiveness, yes to an extent. However this applies even internally to Pashtunkhwa. Swat went through different political circusmtances, then peshawar, waziristan from zhob and so on so forth. That doesn't mean this can't be revoked and a better more integrated system can be brought into place. That is why I am talking about de-centralization of Pakistan and more autonomy to Pashtunkhwa. Only then can we re-integrate the Pashtun areas east of the Durand line first before any idea of a union. It is a process that has to happen. Otherwise, as you said they have all went through different political cultures. This is similar to the issue of economy. Pashtunkhwa and Afghanistan are both transit routes, but that doesn't negate the fact there is a market for people to move back and forth and invest.

Do you think Pashtuns would move to far off areas like Karachi or Lahore (the supposed industrial hubs) when they can work in Pashtunkhwa/Afghanistan? Pashtunkhwa has abundant resources which can provide income, jobs, and economic investment in the area. This has positive benefits. An industrial base can be built in Pashtunkhwa and Afghanistan as well. In such an instance, is it necessary to overlook the area straight to Panjab or Sindh?

Do you think in this instance of said chaos Pashtunkhwa will be immune? Don't you see a similar policy blowback dragging Pakistan into rather than away from Afghanistan? I think it would drag them in and that would lead to a spillover. Again this is my view if such a said scenario were there.

[Nokia_Apridy]

.......dei UZgar shwey hasay Chagay wahi........

Show da nor hes na...

[ComradePashtun]

BLS,

Let leave the chaos aside, for now because when a community is insecure and under threat the first thing for them is measure to feel more secure, in any that case, it will be too speculative to say that Afghanistan will make them feel more secure if the instability in Pashtunkhwa will is as result of spill-over from Afghanistan directly or is indirectly Pashtunkhwa made unstable as a result of Afghanistan. Any way.

What you forget is that Pashtunkhwa Pashtun moving to Karachi where they live under threat to their lives but if avoided they will be able to make living there than in Pashtunkhwa. Those are extreme measures. Neither Pashtnkhwa in any foreseebale future nor can Afghanistan obsorb them and offer the livelyhood they have in Karachi. So despite how well you utilise your econmic sources there in Pashtunkhwa you wont be able to obsorb these 5 millions, or worse off secure the economic wellbeing of the population residing there comfortable enough within indigenious economy autonomous from the rest of Pakistan (far-fetched hypothesis) so that they will stand firm for the cause.

And Pashutnkhwa natural resources utilisation is far too ambitious and unrealist through which you will be able create industries that will compete within the region and be economically suffiecient for population, at best the potential of any insturies in Pashtunkhwa will probably offer max half a million jobs to its population in the next 30 years perhaps, even if were run it which will further integrate and make you interdependent within the Pakistani the Pakistani economy and its financial system. The minute any of your top industrialist shakes his tail and make a move for breaking Pakistan up, the very good Pathan general and brigadiers in the army will step on his tail and will ask the banks to freez his accounts. What a scenario to think of. Having economic reasons makes you strive for further harmony not disruptions.

[ComradePashtun]

BLS,

With all due respect, and just a hypothetical question. Even if Afghanistan combined with Pashtunkhwa can pull it off to make the dream realise econmically and politically possible. Those who will be leading the cause on belahf of Pashtunkhwa, the political leadership I mean (which is likely going to be ANP or someone else not Pashtun like you Khyal, Toramana in any foreesble future), how can they convince Afghan Pashtuns that uniting with Pashtuns of Pashtunkhwa will be of benifit to them in the first place, and in the second that the are dispensable if the economic opportune were not there? Principally speaking Afghan Pashtuns will turn around that I sacrificed everything for you but now that there is economic and material reaoson you want to unite when he might for that reason better off remain where he is?

Wouldn't the Pakistanis turn around and accuse Pashtuns of Pashtunkhwa for treachery? How will such an accusation from the mighty Paki mullahs make it any easy?

[BLS_1919v2.0]

BLS,

Let leave the chaos aside, for now because when a community is insecure and under threat the first thing for them is measure to feel more secure, in any that case, it will be too speculative to say that Afghanistan will make them feel more secure if the instability in Pashtunkhwa will is as result of spill-over from Afghanistan directly or is indirectly Pashtunkhwa made unstable as a result of Afghanistan. Any way.

What you forget is that Pashtunkhwa Pashtun moving to Karachi where they live under threat to their lives but if avoided they will be able to make living there than in Pashtunkhwa. Those are extreme measures. Neither Pashtnkhwa in any foreseebale future nor can Afghanistan obsorb them and offer the livelyhood they have in Karachi. So despite how well you utilise your econmic sources there in Pashtunkhwa you wont be able to obsorb these 5 millions, or worse off secure the economic wellbeing of the population residing there comfortable enough within indigenious economy autonomous from the rest of Pakistan (far-fetched hypothesis) so that they will stand firm for the cause.

And Pashutnkhwa natural resources utilisation is far too ambitious and unrealist through which you will be able create industries that will compete within the region and be economically suffiecient for population, at best the potential of any insturies in Pashtunkhwa will probably offer max half a million jobs to its population in the next 30 years perhaps, even if were run it which will further integrate and make you interdependent within the Pakistani the Pakistani economy and its financial system. The minute any of your top industrialist shakes his tail and make a move for breaking Pakistan up, the very good Pathan general and brigadiers in the army will step on his tail and will ask the banks to freez his accounts. What a scenario to think of. Having economic reasons makes you strive for further harmony not disruptions.

Wrora that is why I said it has to be a process and that too under the assumption of a stable Afghanistan and a Pakistan establishment willing to know its place in the region. Otherwise to be frank I don't entirely see a very optimistic future. This is all predicated on the simple basis that if we can ensure stability then we can make these things happen, slowly yet surely. That is all. Other than that, we can entertain a variety of scenarios, maybe they are far more beneficial, maybe less. At the end of the day we have to play with the limited cards we are dealt with.

Well I find the industrialists and Army scenario to be a little unlikely. Consider it this way, the last time there was government takeover of the major industries was during Zulfiqar's time and there was no army push against these policies, rather those industrialists left. After that the Pakistani military increased their tentacles into business ventures. So the army itself is a corporation within a state. In fact is the corporation running the state.

[graveyardofempires]

when Pashtuns/afghans accept durrand line and call themselves pakistani than the devide and rule has completed and there is no need to expect respect for being a Pakistani Pashtun and talk about "unity" cuz that will be oxymoron.

comRatpashtun and you pakistani phatans have no vision and dont have pashtun interests at heart and hide behind your self complicated explainations which cant impress anyone.

[gadoonwal]

That demonstration was organised by Pakhtunkhwa mili awami party against the genocides of pashtuns by isi but many bar afghans also took part in that.


afghanis and pashtuns face the same enemy .
The intersting part is that both sides never show this unity back home.

hasai chagai dey,,

[emkhan]

That demonstration was organised by Pakhtunkhwa mili awami party against the genocides of pashtuns by isi but many bar afghans also took part in that.


afghanis and pashtuns face the same enemy .
The intersting part is that both sides never show this unity back home.

hasai chagai dey,,

Wrora, pa de lar ao bar me poha kra... pa "bar" kho pohegam mat upper. da de "lar" sa matlab dai ?
manana

[Nokia_Apridy]

emkhan hes na serf Show da bas.....Ghwaganu pa ma khura...

[gadoonwal]

emlkhana wrora,,
lar ya lara(not laara) koza-pakhtunkhwa yani da durand pa namarkhata chi koma da pokhtanu seema prata dah hagai ta ,,koza yaa lara pukhtoonkhwa yei.
bar maana upper/bara,,,,,,,, lar/lower/koza