What accounts for "US loosing" in Afghanistan.

[ghundal]

Again, you are talking about what we want, I am telling you about how it is. It is already a civil war, and the US picked a side- the Northern Alliance.

Obviously, I wish the all sides could join together as in the past, but that may have to wait. I wish, really.

Well, about sympathy, that is your interpretation. A resistance movement thrives on support otherwise it would not exist. Taliban is already handing out justice in many districts. There are several articles on this. They even levy taxes.

here, lets not derail. I have to sleep. I will check tomorrow.

Khudai pa amman everyone

[BLS_1919v2.0]

lets not derail here, but in regards to posting several times, Comrade was not providing evidence for his points which I requested. He was instead resorting to his usual abusive retorts. It seems it is a pattern with the Flat Earth Society. Even Toramana chimed in LOL

A lot of his points from his two posts didn't really need them. Unless you can specifically show it...which is yet to be seen. Even Shuer lacked that in certain areas (which I mentioned).

[ghundal]

Again, you are talking about what we want, I am telling you about how it is. It is already a civil war, and the US picked a side- the Northern Alliance.

Obviously, I wish the all sides could join together as in the past, but that may have to wait. I wish, really.

Well, about sympathy, that is your interpretation. A resistance movement thrives on support otherwise it would not exist. Taliban is already handing out justice in many districts. There are several articles on this. They even levy taxes.

address this

[BLS_1919v2.0]

address this

First of all, by saying US supported NA in an ongoing civil war means you are supporting the other side in the civil war? Right or wrong? If so, then you are basically doing what I fear the most, that is further strife, and the continuation of war. Is that in the interests of Afghanistan?

Ok they are imposing their rule of law. Did I say they were not a political voice? Didn't I say they should be brought to the table, negotiated with and become a future part of the country. Would you rather they run a quasi-state? I wouldn't.

[ghundal]

Southern Afghanistan is very similar to Vietnam, and as always, the Pashtun masses have ruled Afghanistan, or what was Afghanistan before these wars. You can call that sensationalism, but history backs it up.

Please read this article. Note this is a US report. They cleverly do not attribute the rise in Taliban support to themselves, but to Karzai. Keep that in mind when reading.

US report shows Taliban support in Afghanistan, blames Karzai | America-Canada | World Bulletin


The report concludes that Afghan people support or are sympathetic to the insurgency in 92 of 121 districts identified by the U.S. military as key terrain. Popular support for Karzai's government is strong in only 29 of those districts, it concludes.

Here are a few good reads on growing Taliban support in Afghanistan.

Virginia M. Moncrieff: Taliban Support Increasing, Holds 72 % Of Afghanistan: Report

Why the Taliban Is Gaining Ground in Afghanistan - TIME

And even this puppet Zardari chimes in with his addition this past August

Zardari: Taliban winning war, Afghan support - Washington Times

sympathy and support, they go hand in hand my dear brother. What exactly are you trying to differentiate? The Taliban actually do govern several districts. People look to them for justice because the Karzai government court systems are corrupt and involve a lot of bribery. The Taliban are even collecting taxes.

Read the articles. Look at the sources if you want. Note that these are mostly US reports.

[ghundal]

First of all, by saying US supported NA in an ongoing civil war means you are supporting the other side in the civil war? Right or wrong? If so, then you are basically doing what I fear the most, that is further strife, and the continuation of war. Is that in the interests of Afghanistan?

Ok they are imposing their rule of law. Did I say they were not a political voice? Didn't I say they should be brought to the table, negotiated with and become a future part of the country. Would you rather they run a quasi-state? I wouldn't.

What difference does it make who I support or not? I am trying to show you reality. Do you accept that this semi- civil war is a reality? You are talking about an ideal. I want the same ideal. I want unity, but I am talking about the reality on the ground.

I would hope that NA and the Afghan Resistance factions could patch things up, but foreign intervention will continue to prevent this.

I don't want civil war like you, but thats what it is right now to a degree whether one likes it or not.

Obviously, we all want peace and reconciliation. The Afghan Resistance has made it clear that they will not talk until foreigners leave. So, at least thats news. The drana pashtuns never go back on their word unlike those clowns sitting in Kabul. Now, realistically, a corrupt unpopular Kabul government will not survive without foreign intervention. Assuming there is no resistance, and everything goes according to US-nato plans, then you would have one of the most corrupt states propped up on earth by a foreign entity that in fact encourages corruption more than anything else.

so there you have it. You are talking about what WE all want, I am telling you about what is going on.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

What difference does it make who I support or not. I am trying to show you reality. Do you accept this as reality? You are talking about an ideal. I want the same ideal. I want unity, but I am talking about the reality on the ground.

I would hope that NA and the Afghan Resistance factions could patch things up, but foreign intervention will continue to prevent this.

I don't want civil war like you, but thats what it is right now to a degree whether one likes it or not.

Obviously, we all want peace and reconciliation. The Afghan Resistance has made it clear that they will not talk until foreigners leave. So, at least thats news. The drana pashtuns never go back on their word unlike those clowns sitting in Kabul. Now, realistically, a corrupt unpopular Kabul government will not survive without foreign intervention. Assuming there is no resistance, and everything goes according to US-nato plans, then you would have one of the most corrupt states propped up on earth by a foreign entity that in fact encourages corruption more than anything else.

so there you have it. You are talking about what WE all want, I am telling you about what is going on.

^^Again I have went through this to death. Do we really understand their motives? It surely isn't "democracy". At least this is how I see things. Ideal is what you see. What you are saying is, "civil war no way out, it is going to happen, but hey NATO will be forced to leave....". What will stop another NATO or power from coming into Afghanistan, if that country isn't set up? The people will suffer.

[ghundal]

First of all, by saying US supported NA in an ongoing civil war means you are supporting the other side in the civil war? Right or wrong? If so, then you are basically doing what I fear the most, that is further strife, and the continuation of war. Is that in the interests of Afghanistan?

Ok they are imposing their rule of law. Did I say they were not a political voice? Didn't I say they should be brought to the table, negotiated with and become a future part of the country. Would you rather they run a quasi-state? I wouldn't.

We are then on different wavelengths. You are talking about what WE all want. What I really want at the end of the day is Muslim unity- a childhood dream. Is that going to happen?

I want Afghan unity. I want it to be a great state, not one ruled by corruption and propped up by foreigners.

What is happening right now is different, and let me remind you, while the Afghan resistance is mainly Pashtun, they do not see through an ethnic perspective. This can be explained by their pushing of their interpretation of Islam on all ethnics with equal punishment for all those who broke laws. Remember, this way of their can be attributed to the crimes that took place during the war against the Soviets and post-Soviet withdrawal. These guys experienced this first hand. They took a stand, and brought order.

The problem I see with the resentment from urban elites is the type of government the Taliban brought. No one can deny that they did not bring law and order, wiping the criminals out.

Law and order is far better than what we have under the US.

And Afghans are seeing this which explains why support for the Taliban has risen, and their reach is now even extending to the north where they are running some districts. That cancels out the ethnic nature of the conflict.

Now, I will assume like you. I doubt this will be an ethnic war at all. It may evolve into a war between the Taliban and the corrupt war lords.

Thats my assumption now.

[ghundal]

^^Again I have went through this to death. Do we really understand their motives? It surely isn't "democracy". At least this is how I see things. Ideal is what you see. What you are saying is, "civil war no way out, it is going to happen, but hey NATO will be forced to leave....". What will stop another NATO or power from coming into Afghanistan, if that country isn't set up? The people will suffer.

In my personal opinion unbacked by evidence, I don't see it being an ethnic war at all. I see it as evolving into a civil war between the Afghan resistance and the corrupt war lords and their many factions.

We all want peace, but peace at the cost of the the dignity of the Afghan state, and the setting up of a corrupt government will not be tolerated. Forget me, this will not be tolerated by the common Afghan man, especially a state propped up by foreigners. It will never work in Afghanistan, and that is the reason why the US mission/war is resulting in failure.

[faye]

depends what their aim is. if polluting afghanistan with toxic/radioactive, cancer inducing waste, from uranium and depleted uranium was their aim. they have succeeded.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

We are then on different wavelengths. You are talking about what WE all want. What I really want at the end of the day is Muslim unity- a childhood dream. Is that going to happen?

I want Afghan unity. I want it to be a great state, not one ruled by corruption and propped up by foreigners.

What is happening right now is different, and let me remind you, while the Afghan resistance is mainly Pashtun, they do not see through an ethnic perspective. This can be explained by their pushing of their interpretation of Islam on all ethnics with equal punishment for all those who broke laws. Remember, this way of their can be attributed to the crimes that took place during the war against the Soviets and post-Soviet withdrawal. These guys experienced this first hand. They took a stand, and brought order.

The problem I see with the resentment from urban elites is the type of government the Taliban brought. No one can deny that they did not bring law and order, wiping the criminals out.

Law and order is far better than what we have under the US.

And Afghans are seeing this which explains why support for the Taliban has risen, and their reach is now even extending to the north where they are running some districts. That cancels out the ethnic nature of the conflict.

Now, I will assume like you. I doubt this will be an ethnic war at all. It may evolve into a war between the Taliban and the corrupt war lords.

Thats my assumption now.

Khaana. I am not talking about an ideal. You just don't comprehend the magnitude of what you are asking. These things are not just going to happen without a greater effect on the region. Try to understand the circumstances in which NATO will leave and the effect it has on our people. When you get that, maybe you would be a little more understanding of what me and comrade are saying.

Taliban may say that, but due to the 90s, have a perception of something else, and hence there is a population that don't see them as their future leaders. It is not only urban elites, you have to get out of that thinking. Urban elites can leave and make a break for it any time. If it was just this small group, it would have been much easier for talibs to gain the entire ground and country.

[ghundal]

Khaana. I am not talking about an ideal. You just don't comprehend the magnitude of what you are asking. These things are not just going to happen without a greater effect on the region. Try to understand the circumstances in which NATO will leave and the effect it has on our people. When you get that, maybe you would be a little more understanding of what me and comrade are saying.

Taliban may say that, but due to the 90s, have a perception of something else, and hence there is a population that don't see them as their future leaders. It is not only urban elites, you have to get out of that thinking. Urban elites can leave and make a break for it any time. If it was just this small group, it would have been much easier for talibs to gain the entire ground and country.

Again, I feel like I am talking to a wall. Tell me about Taliban support and US-nato support. Give me evidence

Till then, your words are "may be, might, perception). I don't claim to know the future, but the reality is all there with support for the Taliban high and growing (look at the US reports I linked previously-not going to link again).

Yes, urban elites can break anytime, thats why they lack all credibility, and lack support from the Afghan masses. These urban elites are just siphoning as much money as they can until they are forced to leave. Afghanistan is not some type of an experiment for them where they can see what works while thousands are dying. No one will accept this.

[ghundal]

Again, I feel like I am talking to a wall. Tell me about Taliban support and US-nato support. Give me evidence

Till then, your words are "may be, might, perception). I don't claim to know the future, but the reality is all there with support for the Taliban high and growing (look at the US reports I linked previously-not going to link again).

Yes, urban elites can break anytime, thats why they lack all credibility, and lack support from the Afghan masses. These urban elites are just siphoning as much money as they can until they are forced to leave. Afghanistan is not some type of an experiment for them where they can see what works while thousands are dying. No one will accept this.

Comrade,

Please give evidence for your claims about Afghanistan and the Taliban made. Besides that, don't change your own topic.

The question was is US losing? I give you evidence that indicates they are indeed losing (the article i posted). You can also check the US reports I posted in this thread showing Taliban reach spreading.

So please do the same, and back up ALL the claims you make. Till you do that, there is no need to address me or my points because you are just a waste of time.

[ghundal]

Sheuer is a CIA analyst who worked in some close cell somewhere, he does not qualify to be a political analysts, his claims are idiotic and outrageous and based on anecdotes like you. You know the saying that "Nothing sways the stupid than the arguements they can't understand." He is no scholar of war and politics or is nrearly an expert on Afghanistan. "Karzai is preparing for early exit." lol

Which claim I made you want me to back up.

BLS has aptly described you to be part of the cheer crowd. Just because Sheuer wrote a book in which he criticises U.S. security policy, he is all of a suden prophetic for dumb aases like you. You are officially an idiot.

Please back all your claims up. Till you do that, stop ranting

[ComradePashtun]

You win, congratulations.