Was Masood fighting for the Soviets?

[randolph85]

so u are saying massoud = tajik resistance? that makes as much sense as hekmatyar = pashtun resistance. the personality cult of massoud was not in full effect until the 90s, a good time after the jihad. tajiks were not fighting for massoud any more than pashtuns were fighting for characters like hekmatyar.

though smaller in number to pashtuns, there were a large amount of tajiks affiliated with jamiat i islami and hezb i islami which gave hell to the russians from the west to the north to the east.

and i am pretty sure admin schooled u in regards to paki involvement in afg in a previous thread.

[roadrunner]

I've noticed some of you start resorting to huge lies whenever I bring touchy subjects up (for this forum)

Don't worry, I'm absolutely neutral on all this. You quite clearly are not.

so u are saying massoud = tajik resistance?

So Jamiat wasn't predominantly Tajik huh?

Jamiat was one of the original Islamist parties in Afghanistan, established in the 1970s by students at KabulUniversity, where its leader, Burhanuddin Rabbani, was a lecturer in the Islamic Law Faculty.Although Rabbani was the official head of Jamiat through the 1980s and early 1990s, the most powerful figure within the party was Ahmad Shah Massoud, who led the military wing of Jamiat-e Islami through the 1980s.(Massoud was assassinated on September 9, 2001.)Rabbani is Tajik, as was Massoud, and Jamiat-e Islami was and remains a predominately Tajik party.Rabbani has a base of support in the northeast province of Badakhshan.
http://www.hrw.org/en/node/11668/section/9

How would you explain this? ISI threatened to gas HRW staff by farting in their offices unless they complied?

ISI threatening to anally gas Basakshan unless they said they were all Pashtuns?

I'd be most interested to see your reply.

that makes as much sense as hekmatyar = pashtun resistance.

Hekmatyar's forces were predominantly drawn from the Pashtun ethnic group.

Hezb-e-Islami was a Pashtun dominated party, Jamiat-e-Islami was mainly a Tajik dominated party, Hezb-e-Wahdat was exclusively a Hazara party and Junbish Milli Islami was predominantly an Uzbek party.

http://www.int-politics.com/Articles...20Politics.pdf

the personality cult of massoud was not in full effect until the 90s, a good time after the jihad. tajiks were not fighting for massoud any more than pashtuns were fighting for characters like hekmatyar.

Warlords have particular areas they draw support from. Most of it is along tribal lines.

To say ethnic Pashtuns and Uzbeks fought in the majority under Massoud is laughable.

though smaller in number to pashtuns, there were a large amount of tajiks affiliated with jamiat i islami and hezb i islami which gave hell to the russians from the west to the north to the east.

You mean Hell like staging fake skirmishes in the Panshir Valley in order to dupe the Muhajideen that they were fighting, all the time cutting deals with the Soviets to allow resupplying of Soviet troops fighting on the Eastern Front?

and i am pretty sure admin schooled u in regards to paki involvement in afg in a previous thread.

I think he didn't say anything of significance. He mentioned foreign policy and elaborated by saying Pakistan interfered in Afghanistan by wanting to use it as Strategic Depth. I responded with, that is exactly what Afghanistan did to Pakistan, it used Pakistan as Strategic Depth to resupply and fight the Soviets from.

I don't think there was anything else significant, but please do point out something that was. I'm quite interested to know.

While you are at it, would you say Pakistan broke the peace process in 1992 that led to the Civil War? If so, how and why?

[randolph85]

u aren't big on comprehension are u?

i am saying that these political parties in their actions do no represent pashtuns nor tajiks in their political and power plays later in their histories.

To say ethnic Pashtuns and Uzbeks fought in the majority under Massoud is laughable.

uhh where did u get this from?

[ScimitarXEdge]

Right, and those would be..?

Masoud? Oh no, we just worked that one out.

Dostum? Oh no again, we know he was Mr Chameleon.

Any others?



I find it the height of hypocrisy that you say to "leave it at that" when it comes to anything negative towards Tajiks, yet will be critical of anything Panjabi related (or won't call to leave it at that).

In fact, I really wanted to know from you guys the ways in which Pakistan interfered with Afghanistan, to the detriment of Afghanistan, post Afghan-Soviet war, and I was met with a load of blank, pimply faces.

Why should any one group be immune from criticism when all others are fair game?

Ismail Khan would be a perfect example; he's an honorable Muslim. Many of Mawlawi Khalis' personel were Tajik. Good guys. I don't think anything Punjabi or of any other ethnicity is automatically wrong or nefarious. However the mainstream Pakistani Establishment is. That is different than labeling punjabis as all conglomeration at odds with everyone.

the reason you feel Punjabis are being attacked is because you view things from such an obtuse and narrow lense of understanding. Things aren't always about ethnicity.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I've noticed some of you start resorting to huge lies whenever I bring touchy subjects up (for this forum)

Don't worry, I'm absolutely neutral on all this. You quite clearly are not.



So Jamiat wasn't predominantly Tajik huh?

You need to be schooled on logical congruence.

Predominantly Tajik =/= Tajik

remember Sayyaf a Pashtun was apart of Jamiat and Abdul Qadir and his brother Abdul Haq, also Pashtuns joined with the Northern Alliance against the Taliban.

likewise as Randolph said, numerous Tajiks were in Pashtun dominated groups like Hizb-e-Islami

ethnicity is not black and white; you need a little more intellectual development.

[ScimitarXEdge]

u aren't big on comprehension are u?

i am saying that these political parties in their actions do no represent pashtuns nor tajiks in their political and power plays later in their histories.



uhh where did u get this from?

that's roadrunner's wild card; change the goal posts and commit straw man fallacies.

[Alchemist]

No masood never fought the soviet

he was always helping them

little known fact is that he was actually trained by the KGB in moscow.

His soldiers never used real bullets. Sometimes they had red ink so that when they shot it...the soviets played dead. That is why Masood's army always had russian weapons and uniform ...and not israilie or american like the rest. In fact masood married a russian woman too. Not a lot of people know this but Masood also translated Das Kapital in Farsi. He was a good actor.. Playing EVERY side. No one figured him out. He was like the Afghan James Bond..playing the brits, the america,s the french and the russians and the afghans ..all at the same time. No one knows whose side he really was ...some even say he was christain... and that he wished to be burried with a cross on his chest...others say he has 200 million dollars in a swiss account ...and it's waiting for his son to turn 18 to take the fortures...but who knows...

[khushal]

Road is a complete idiot. No one is attacking Panjabis as an ethnicity. It is the Pakistani feudal elites and that includes panjabi's, pashtuns, boluchis, sindhis etc who rob their own people. Panjabis like Road and pashtuns like shahbaz khan always come to the aid and defend these feudalists. There is no difference between opportunists like these two(Road and shahbaz) and the opportunist Masood. Ethnicity does not play any role in this equation.

[ScimitarXEdge]

No masood never fought the soviet

he was always helping them

little known fact is that he was actually trained by the KGB in moscow.

His soldiers never used real bullets. Sometimes they had red ink so that when they shot it...the soviets played dead. That is why Masood's army always had russian weapons and uniform ...and not israilie or american like the rest. In fact masood married a russian woman too. Not a lot of people know this but Masood also translated Das Kapital in Farsi. He was a good actor.. Playing EVERY side. No one figured him out. He was like the Afghan James Bond..playing the brits, the america,s the french and the russians and the afghans ..all at the same time. No one knows whose side he really was ...some even say he was christain... and that he wished to be burried with a cross on his chest...others say he has 200 million dollars in a swiss account ...and it's waiting for his son to turn 18 to take the fortures...but who knows...

even though I feel Massoud was a creep; you made me laugh.

[ScimitarXEdge]

This thread deserves one of these

[roadrunner]

u aren't big on comprehension are u?

i am saying that these political parties in their actions do no represent pashtuns nor tajiks in their political and power plays later in their histories.

lol, talk about lose the argument or what.

The Jamiat-e-Islami was a group of double-crossing and triple-crossing individuals that did not comprise the entire Tajik population of Afghanistan.

That doesn't distract from the fact, that was being made quite clearly, that the Jamiat-e-Islami represented a substantial chunk of Tajik support, and that is shown by the widespread alliances through the major Tajik provinces of Afghanistan towards Jamiat (Ismail Khan was allied to the Jamiat-e-Islami, though he may not have known about Massouds double dealings with the Soviets to allow Soviet supplies to the South and East).

That's what we were discussing. That Jamiat-e-Islami double-crossed, and eventually triple-crossed everyone else as part of a power-grab to weaken the Pashtun tribes by allowing the Soviets to re-supply their troops fighting in the South and East. According to Boris Gromov and various others, that is what happened. Why would he lie about it?

uhh where did u get this from?

You said it. Afghanistan is a feudal, tribal area. People generally don't think outside of tribal links, or are not allowed to. They just align to their ethnic warlord.

[roadrunner]

You need to be schooled on logical congruence.

Predominantly Tajik =/= Tajik

remember Sayyaf a Pashtun was apart of Jamiat and Abdul Qadir and his brother Abdul Haq, also Pashtuns joined with the Northern Alliance against the Taliban.

likewise as Randolph said, numerous Tajiks were in Pashtun dominated groups like Hizb-e-Islami

ethnicity is not black and white; you need a little more intellectual development.

I'd be surprised if anything "logically congruent" could come out of your skull.

I agree that predominantly Tajik does not equal Tajik, and I never said that was the case, dohhhh. You're just de-railing the argument because you can't argue it.

Sayyaf was a part of Ittihad-e-Islami not Jamiat
Ittihad-e-Islami (Islamic Union for the Liberation of Afghanistan) is headed by Professor Abdul Rasul Sayyaf, was established to attract support from Arab Wahhabi sources and has received considerable aid from Saudi Arabia and the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC). With that aid it has been able to attract commanders inside Afghanistan

Ismail Khan was a part of Jamiat

Abdul Haq was not a member of Jamiat. He was a member of Khales's Hezb party.

"Hezb-e-Islami (Islamic Party) headed by Yunis Khales is a splinter party that broke away from Hekmatyar's in 1979. It is a traditional Islamic coalition party with a Pashtun tribal base that is particularly strong in the Jalalabad area.
http://www.angelfire.com/nb/junbesh/page113.html

[roadrunner]

Ismail Khan would be a perfect example; he's an honorable Muslim. Many of Mawlawi Khalis' personel were Tajik.

That's just not true.

Hezb-e-Islami (Islamic Party) headed by Yunis Khales is a splinter party that broke away from Hekmatyar's in 1979. It is a traditional Islamic coalition party with a Pashtun tribal base that is particularly strong in the Jalalabad area.
http://www.angelfire.com/nb/junbesh/page113.html

Good guys.

So you're saying that Pashtuns = good guys? That's the "logical congruence of what you've implied according to your simian us of terminology.

I don't think anything Punjabi or of any other ethnicity is automatically wrong or nefarious. However the mainstream Pakistani Establishment is. That is different than labeling punjabis as all conglomeration at odds with everyone.

the reason you feel Punjabis are being attacked is because you view things from such an obtuse and narrow lense of understanding. Things aren't always about ethnicity.

I'm quite happy to hear about what the dreaded Punjabis have done. There was a thread on this where I asked anyone to state it. Noone was able to. They stated the Punjabis should have built schools in a warzone or some other mindless garbage. Stability in Afghanistan is in the interests of the Punjabis.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I'd be surprised if anything "logically congruent" could come out of your skull.

I agree that predominantly Tajik does not equal Tajik, and I never said that was the case, dohhhh. You're just de-railing the argument because you can't argue it.

Sayyaf was a part of Ittihad-e-Islami not Jamiat
Ittihad-e-Islami (Islamic Union for the Liberation of Afghanistan) is headed by Professor Abdul Rasul Sayyaf, was established to attract support from Arab Wahhabi sources and has received considerable aid from Saudi Arabia and the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC). With that aid it has been able to attract commanders inside Afghanistan

Ismail Khan was a part of Jamiat

Abdul Haq was not a member of Jamiat. He was a member of Khales's Hezb party.

"Hezb-e-Islami (Islamic Party) headed by Yunis Khales is a splinter party that broke away from Hekmatyar's in 1979. It is a traditional Islamic coalition party with a Pashtun tribal base that is particularly strong in the Jalalabad area.
http://www.angelfire.com/nb/junbesh/page113.html

The Northern Alliance = Jamiat on steroids.

[ScimitarXEdge]

That's just not true.

Hezb-e-Islami (Islamic Party) headed by Yunis Khales is a splinter party that broke away from Hekmatyar's in 1979. It is a traditional Islamic coalition party with a Pashtun tribal base that is particularly strong in the Jalalabad area.
http://www.angelfire.com/nb/junbesh/page113.html



So you're saying that Pashtuns = good guys? That's the "logical congruence of what you've implied according to your simian us of terminology.



I'm quite happy to hear about what the dreaded Punjabis have done. There was a thread on this where I asked anyone to state it. Noone was able to. They stated the Punjabis should have built schools in a warzone or some other mindless garbage. Stability in Afghanistan is in the interests of the Punjabis.

Good grief so again Logical Congruency fails again

Pashtun Base =/= Pashtun .....why do you have problems with these logical hurdles????? There are TAJIKS in Jalalabad too, there were Tajiks, with Hezb-i-Islami. Goodness. Your problem is, you speak as an outsider, but act as if you talking from within.