Opportunism ---Muslim Brotherhood Style

[emkhan]

Al chemist you are right.
Actually these people are too much inspired with the western media and such propaganda machines. They accept anything coming out of their dirty minds.
They dont have their own vision and thoughts. just love to follow the strangers

[ScimitarXEdge]

Even at that, even if what Redmoonrising an UNACADEMIC website with unVERIFIED materials; "supporting" something and being "apart" of something are two different things. Toramana is losing in both ends of the propaganda game he peddles.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Jumaath-i-Islami is the South Asian organ of Muslim brotherhood with ideology heavily influence by Hasnul Bina thoughts. And it considers itself as such. In fact, it has books of Hasnul Bina, Sayed Qutab, Mohammad Qutab, etc. as part of its curriculum. Muslim brotherhood and its vaious shades are the most abhorrent of all the Islamist movements with the aim to superimpose Arab cultural supremacy on other nations in the name of Islam.

As Maulana Maududi was Urdu-speaking from UP, he and his followers use Islam in the service of Urdu sub-Islamic culture...

Being "influenced" by something and being representative, directed, organized or governed by something is a different deal. Just because someone latches on to a popular slogan, doesn't mean they represent it.

For example

You are influenced by Pashtun Nationalism; but you work for Imperialism. Does that mean being Pashtun is flawed because you're a traitor and work for British Imperialist and American imperialist interests? Of course not Being Pashtun is a beautiful thing, deceitful and corrupt individuals who try and manipulate Pashtun identity to further British and American superimpose their hegemony is not.

And no, the Muslim Brotherhood are not trying to super impose Arab or Pashtun or Persian anything on anyone. Even in the sourceo which you manipulatively hide it said the Muslim Brotherhood were fighting Arab Nationalists because they perceived them as compromising Islamic Values. That's YOUR OWN SOURCES speaking.

Using the Arab or Ethnic scapegoat constantly makes it more apparent you work for the British and American Imperialists. Everyone knows thats a British Imperialist created diversion tactic.

[Catya Sher]

Thanks, Emkhan, it was a very accurate assessment of "El Toro".

Alchemist is really right to highlight the crazy nature of that source.
I wouldn't bother looking at the site myself, so it's good to hear what type of writer the guy is.

There actually are millions if not hundreds of thousands of "Christians" who believe that way. It's scary : they are completely persuaded that Islam came from the devil, the AntiChrist may be either a Muslim or a Jew from some certain tribe [complete nonsense to me but they take it SO seriously, they have the supposed tribe pinpointed and are on the outlook for this expected figure which exercises the most incredible grip on the imagination of these people] and so much else.

But El Toro does not believe in Islam anyway, at least not any mainstream version, maybe some smaller sect if any at all -
so he could care less how outrageous the redmoonrising author's site is.

Emkhan is right too that these people here on PF too often pick up any old trash off the internet without using the slightest good judgment as to what makes sense and what doesn't.

[ScimitarXEdge]

See look Toramana, you even made thread about this in which your OWN source which you Cherry Picked through actually says the opposite of what you were saying now, you deliberately left out the link so no one would check and read.

look for yourself

http://www.pashtunforums.com/religio...09/index2.html


This is from the source you quoted from.

http://www.gulfwar1991.com/Gulf%20Wa...0El-Najjar.htm

.

is hard to perceive Arab nationalism as separate from its Islamic heritage. However, some developments at the turn and the end of the 20th century showed the two as if they were in conflict. As a reaction to the Turkish nationalist movement, Arab intellectuals started to form Arab nationalist organizations that aimed at the independence of the Arab homeland (Appendix IV.B). Their major fear was falling under the rule of the victorious European powers. Their fear became reality when the European powers succeeded in dividing the Arab homeland into several separated states. Arab nationalists then realized that the struggle for true Arab independence cannot be separated from the struggle for unification.[44]
....

However, many Islamic writers criticized Arab nationalism as it separated Muslim Arabs from other Muslims. Among these were Abu Al-Ala Al-Mawdudi, Seyid Qutb, Abu Al-Hassan Al-Nadawi, and Sa'id Hawa.[47]

Because of the conflict between the Nasser government and the Muslim Brotherhood in the 1950s and the 1960s, the distance increased between Arab nationalists and Islamists.


......
However, whenever the contradiction between unionists and sovereigntists intensified, like in the 1960s after the Syrian secession and during the Yemeni War, Arab nationalists were falsely accused of opposing Islam. One support for that accusation was the adoption of an Arab form of socialism.

And even in that source the Arab Nationalists that were being referred to weren't being described as after some cultural Hegemony on non-Arabs but rather liberators against British and French Colonialism. I don't see what's wrong with that?

Also you're quite a hypocrite, you want to impose Pashtun culture on non-Pashtuns; Superimposing Pashtun supremacy on others; it seems here the reason you accuse others of working for Ethnic Domination interests is because you yourself are Using Ethnic Domination to serve Imperialism.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

See look Toramana, you even made thread about this in which your OWN source which you Cherry Picked through actually says the opposite of what you were saying now, you deliberately left out the link so no one would check and read.

look for yourself

http://www.pashtunforums.com/religio...09/index2.html


This is from the source you quoted from.

http://www.gulfwar1991.com/Gulf%20Wa...0El-Najjar.htm
[/FONT]

And even in that source the Arab Nationalists that were being referred to weren't being described as after some cultural Hegemony on non-Arabs but rather liberators against British and French Colonialism. I don't see what's wrong with that?

Also you're quite a hypocrite, you want to impose Pashtun culture on non-Pashtuns; Superimposing Pashtun supremacy on others; it seems here the reason you accuse others of working for Ethnic Domination interests is because you yourself are Using Ethnic Domination to serve Imperialism.

Dang, Toramana, caught in the act of actually pilfering and altering a source... This is his Judith Miller moment. Leave it to ANP automatons (the real ISI branch of the Paki government) to resort to such measures! This should remain a perma-post so it can be referred to as evidence for the intellectual dishonesty.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I was actually contemplating making a thread specifically to highlight the Intellectually Dishonest Tactics of Toramana and other servants of Imperialist agendas so that people are made aware of what they're doing. It's important people start being able to recognize their inconsistencies

[Baygham]

Sx and barakzai, being second generation confused desi's have you guys considered the punk islamic scene of "Taqwacore's". Just heard it on NPR, I think it is Allah calling you guys.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I don't even know what Taqwacores is

and if you want to see "Desi"....go ask your bacha berish, Toramana about how he thinks Indo-Prakrit speaking Gandharans were ancient Pashtuns. heh and why he idealizes an Indian ruler as his moniker.

How about a little more qualifiable debate skills and a little less having a temper tantrum when your comrades heads are getting squashed?

or is that why you're here? Damage control? Trying to divert into petty bickeirng when Toramana is being exposed for intellectual dishonesty and disinformation?

[Baygham]

I don't even know what Taqwacores is

and if you want to see "Desi"....go ask your bacha berish, Toramana about how he thinks Indo-Prakrit speaking Gandharans were ancient Pashtuns. heh and why he idealizes an Indian ruler as his moniker.

How about a little more qualifiable debate skills and a little less having a temper tantrum when your comrades heads are getting squashed?

or is that why you're here? Damage control? Trying to divert into petty bickeirng when Toramana is being exposed for intellectual dishonesty and disinformation?

Dear SX, I am not here to debate the superiority of my follies. I come here for a few nostalgic pangs of a place I once called home.

I wish you and every one else here happiness and good fortitude. Toramana, I have known for a long time. I have no problems with his intellect or his honesty. I dont see him being squashed or exposed, quite to the contrary I see you and others like you a mere inconsequential blip in the bigger scheme of things pertaining to watan. People there do not have the same psychological needs as second generation american muslim afghans have. Similarly expat first generation afghans like T and me have our own demons, a little closer to ground but still far far away from the daily travails of a guy in rural pakhtunkhwa or jalalabad. We still have homes in watan, that we grew up in, people on ground that grew up with us. Our memories and tastes are shared yet time has taken us apart from people in watan, we see things and regurgitate those memories on a different fabric of fantasy.

You search for your identity, part afghan, part muslim, part arab, octaroon black, quadroon white, may be a few mongoloid parts, american education, american friends, american social disparities, american success. Its a unique mix of things, 99% is not in common with the guy in watan. Hence my suggestion of Taqwacore, you will find more in common with these guys than with aghans from watan.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I don't necessarily agree with everything you say, but the spirit of your message is a reasonable one and one I think can contribute to providing a more conducive fabric for how things are done.

we're not here to merely imposed Shari'ah or uproot customs; we want a system of equity based on Islamic Principles. we understand that many cultural features are not consistent with Shari'ah but at the same time are relatively innocuous and/or secondary issues that can be addressed later. Our main goal is Muslim Self Sufficiency and Empowerment so that our future generations wont have to come to Western Societies to function, we can do so on our own without their manipulation. Similar to what you argued, a Islamic Block to counter the Europeans and North Americans as well as having a balanced cooperative with China.

Even with what you may describe as religious; you have people who have more rigid attitudes reminiscent of Taliban like Mr. Khorasani

And then you have more comprehensive rationalists like Myself who want a logical and balanced outlook with realistic yet imperative goals to ratify in the Muslim world, which may not seem feasible, but are crucial to be enacted for our future.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Dear SX, I am not here to debate the superiority of my follies. I come here for a few nostalgic pangs of a place I once called home.

I wish you and every one else here happiness and good fortitude. Toramana, I have known for a long time. I have no problems with his intellect or his honesty. I dont see him being squashed or exposed, quite to the contrary I see you and others like you a mere inconsequential blip in the bigger scheme of things pertaining to watan. People there do not have the same psychological needs as second generation american muslim afghans have. Similarly expat first generation afghans like T and me have our own demons, a little closer to ground but still far far away from the daily travails of a guy in rural pakhtunkhwa or jalalabad. We still have homes in watan, that we grew up in, people on ground that grew up with us. Our memories and tastes are shared yet time has taken us apart from people in watan, we see things and regurgitate those memories on a different fabric of fantasy.

You search for your identity, part afghan, part muslim, part arab, octaroon black, quadroon white, may be a few mongoloid parts, american education, american friends, american social disparities, american success. Its a unique mix of things, 99% is not in common with the guy in watan. Hence my suggestion of Taqwacore, you will find more in common with these guys than with aghans from watan.

This is the most ridiculous tripe you have ever composed; You people are the epitome of the Third Worlder Inferiority Complex.

It takes more than vapid claims of exoneration; your rhetoric, your ideals, your values are consequently the product of psychological subservience and mental colonization; instituted from the days the British left their Brainwashing camps in your areas of India.

Please tell me what is common with a guy in Watan that your own admission do not see the sheer moral destitution of whoring out one's own sister? I say that not to be inflammatory but to be insightful; there are people who are not even Pashtun who are more akin to being Pashtun than you are, if you are ethnically Pashtun that is. Likewise what matters here is the value system; yours are not the normative values of Pashtuns, You've even made it a point to attempt to impress a Westerner ON THIS forum for all eyes to see and berate and degrade the motives and mindset of Pashtuns and their culture and values, as if you were some outsider who superficially looked at Pashtuns from the lense of their shallow vainglorious lense, ignoring the finer nuances and details which someone who is Truly of Pashtun heritage would know. You are not only in contrast of Pashtuns you are in direct enmity towards it and seek to abolish them.

My Education in the West and being raised here are actually Testimony to my credibility not a detraction. That even though I was raised here , experienced their culture. and fluent in their semantics and rhetoric; my intimate familiarity allows me to see it's defects , it's detriments and weaknesses. I have retained my values unscathed; we can't say the same about you, who idealizes the Framework of such a culture to be your own. Are you sure it's not you who's projecting your own complexes here?

I have no conflict with identity; that's what a first generation Indo-Pak Asylum seeker who's desperately trying to find acceptance by appeasing the British Raj's children does. I'm Muslim, my ethnicity is incidental; I choose to be Ethically Pashtun (not merely ethnically) because my rational senses sees the merit of the normative values of Pashtuns, the same values you loathe. There's nothing special to Pashtuns other than that. Individuals like yourself, MI6 aka Mazloom aka leech, who names himself after a BRITISH secret service agency, Toramana, naming himself after an Indian Buddhist etc. are the ones who clearly act as conflicted with the Pashtun heritage and normative values; so much so you reach for things clearly hostile to the normative standards of Pashtuns and idealize it to spread amidst them. Just as you did during the British Raj days.

Of course you won't see Toramana as being dishonest or see problems with his intellect; You are BLIND to reality and live in a perpetual state of abject denial and psychological complexes.

By the way, I just googled Taqwacores, it seems to be something to do with Desi culture; the fact you're aware of such a thing demonstrates that you're more heavily involved in Desi heritage, than Pashtun heritage. In your bid to discredit others, you have only exposed yourself.

[ScimitarXEdge]

yes I agree about a system based on equaty consistant with islamic principles and i would even call them universal principles because everyone wants equaty and justice and deserves to live in dignity. I am just saying we can not discard many factors which are unique to pashtun society and the tribal and inter tribal issues. The case of pashtuns is more complex because of its tribal nature and past experiences of inter tribal problems. Our problems are very complex and needs people who undrestand these issues.

Forming blocks and union i,e european union can come later on. You never know we might have a muslim union courtesy of the New World Order

I would call them universal because Islam is universal it's meant for the whole of mankind, even if segments of mankind do not acknowledge it. But I digress.

I woudl say about 85% of Pashtun culture is compatible with Islam; but let's be honest and this is where I actually agree with Baygham , Toramana and even MI6; there are some heinous things done in our culture that we accept. We trade women to settle rivalries; now originally this was a decent practice when it was based on good will and mutual accord; but now it's become a way to curse and abuse the other and in turn make a woman's life living hell. We ask for insane "bride price", which doesn't necessarily cause homosexuality, but it enables deviant sexual behaviorl; originally the reason for "walwar" wasn't so the father could make a killing in profit, but to compensate for loss of important economic links of the family. Now it's something else. The Certain customs of Pashtuns have lost their original merit; we need to restore that, and the way to do that is through Islam.

You can't honestly tell me that Islam is not needed to intervene on these issues; these are cultural issues, Islam's job is to provide justice for everyone, man, woman, children ....and believe it or not even Animals, the trees and The environment itself. This is where we have to take the understanding of Islam, not merely outward rituals and customs; of how long a beard is or whether women wear burqas or not. Those are secondary.

[Toramana]

Yar this guy SE is an Arab patriot...the brutal Arab nationalist of the house of Al-Saud...haha give me a cup of tea folks...

[ScimitarXEdge]

Spoken like a True slave of the british raj; shout fire in a crowded theater