The Bacha Bazi thread

[Valeri Petrofsky]

it would have been nice of valeri to have apologised for calling malalai joya a liar.

Faye, I am one of those who give utmost respect to women and take pride in their humility. I do not know that woman. But my remark, that Joya is a liar is completely based on on the accounts provided by Khushal. The two statements attributed to Joya are in complete contrast with each other. Only one of the statements can be true. If, as Khushal says, she is the author of both the statements, then certainly one of them is a lie.

So, no, as much as might want to, I will not apologize.

[Valeri Petrofsky]

I'm going to try to get to the proof.
Imperialism is the greater evil. Imperialism is a disservice to both America and Afghanistan. I have already proven to you how afghans are suffering from this war. Why don't you shed some light on how America is benefiting from this war. When I say America, I'm talking about the average American Joe, not the elites or the corporations that are raping the American tax payer. Can you answer this question.

Khushal, what proof will you find, to serve what purpose? To prove that I am infected by the neo-western mentality that the US is the best country? What does it matter even if I am conditioned to think so? And you do not have to prove me how Afghans are suffering in this war, because it is a well known widely acknowledged fact. Afghanistan is going through really bad times, and indeed so many Afghans are suffering in this war.

All I am saying is, democracy in Afghanistan is relatively new, let it take its time. Please do not expect Afghanistan to turn into a model country overnight. Such ultra-criticism will serve no purpose other than pushing the country back into the hands of warlords. I am not saying they are not there right now. I am also not saying that you should not criticize, because that is the way to keep a check on the administration. But saying that Taliban times were better than these, is a bit too much.

Anyway, I would really appreciate it a lot if we could focus on the practice of Bacha Bazi and find the root cause of this evil. That will be the only way to make sure such practice doesn't make a come back, ever.

[randolph85]

the root cause is simple. a social sickness that was created by fear and intimidation of the practitioners of this sickness. the men who engage in such sickness are not the average abdul but usually men with money and stature. during the taliban times, the ruling party did not compromise with such people or have to make deals with them to insure survival or support. their support came from the average abdul, how they later on messed that up has no revelence with this subject. for everything i dislike the taliban for, i will usually find one thing to respect them for. their position on this practice is one of those things that i respect of them. these sickos were not part of the taliban support system, hence the taliban didn't need them and could administer proper justice to these types.

then america invades, everyone who is anti taliban and has been burned by them all of the sudden becomes an asset. the government cant alienate the support base of these local sickos nor can the west admit to the rise of this practice because it goes against their helping afghans motto. now u have a government that walks a tight rope who cant risk enforcing islamic law against local rich guys with influence and now this practice is back in full force.

[Valeri Petrofsky]

the root cause is simple. a social sickness that was created by fear and intimidation of the practitioners of this sickness. the men who engage in such sickness are not the average abdul but usually men with money and stature. during the taliban times, the ruling party did not compromise with such people or have to make deals with them to insure survival or support. their support came from the average abdul, how they later on messed that up has no revelence with this subject. for everything i dislike the taliban for, i will usually find one thing to respect them for. their position on this practice is one of those things that i respect of them. these sickos were not part of the taliban support system, hence the taliban didn't need them and could administer proper justice to these types.

then america invades, everyone who is anti taliban and has been burned by them all of the sudden becomes an asset. the government cant alienate the support base of these local sickos nor can the west admit to the rise of this practice because it goes against their helping afghans motto. now u have a government that walks a tight rope who cant risk enforcing islamic law against local rich guys with influence and now this practice is back in full force.

Thanks man, that was a good brief on the subject. About the Taliban, I feel that even if the Taliban had to compromise with these people, it would not have allowed it (Bacha Bazi) to be as rampant as it is now, simply because the Taliban is a highly religious group, and the practice goes against the tenets of Islam.

Now, as someone mentioned before, since the policemen and higher-ups are also involved in it, it will be very difficult to get rid of this problem quickly.

As I see it, Afghanistan faces danger from all sides, in all dimensions. The government can only do so much. So in the end it is up to the general people of Afghanistan to voice their protest against such practices. And the situation does not look as hopeless as it is generally portrayed. The mere fact that we are debating on it here, and that journalists are investigating it and bringing it forth for the public to know, shows that it might be a little late, but this menace will not stay in Afghanistan for long.

It is purely my opinion, but it comes from what I have seen in India - Such evils are deep-rooted in the character of those who practice it. You cannot get such men rid of their nature/character. Ultimately the only resort you are left with, is to ensure the implementation of law to keep it in check, and along with that - educate the coming new generation to make sure it (the practice) doesn't bounce back. Once the older, corrupt generation is replaced by the newer better educated/informed one, such practices will be history. Until then, the nation has to keep struggling against it. It is a wait, but not too long in the long run.

[Azmal]

Whats the matter with you. Are you afraid that you and your family members would stop making money off of the blood of innocent afghans.

I suppose by parroting a lie, you hope it'll morph into a truth? It is an absolute fact that I have no family member in Afghanistan… land my family owned were taken by immoral Communist under “Islahat e Harze” we left our homes and everything we owned…now it sold 10 hands….my brother spend 2 years in thwart trying to get people out…some simply occupying some buying it from others…so theirs no personal gain here…other then a bleeding heart…watching enemy state Pakistan though Jahleen and murderous scams destroying my country. Thanks to your failed Talibi filth and the tyranny you unleashed, majority of people are praying for the continue stay of international forces… So yes, I fully support the international forces who kicked your ass, for it was for the defense of Afghan peoples liberties. I believed in the liberties of our people during PDPA, Jahdi, and Talibi tyrants then, and I believe in it now.

[randolph85]

Thanks man, that was a good brief on the subject. About the Taliban, I feel that even if the Taliban had to compromise with these people, it would not have allowed it (Bacha Bazi) to be as rampant as it is now, simply because the Taliban is a highly religious group, and the practice goes against the tenets of Islam.

Now, as someone mentioned before, since the policemen and higher-ups are also involved in it, it will be very difficult to get rid of this problem quickly.

As I see it, Afghanistan faces danger from all sides, in all dimensions. The government can only do so much. So in the end it is up to the general people of Afghanistan to voice their protest against such practices. And the situation does not look as hopeless as it is generally portrayed. The mere fact that we are debating on it here, and that journalists are investigating it and bringing it forth for the public to know, shows that it might be a little late, but this menace will not stay in Afghanistan for long.

It is purely my opinion, but it comes from what I have seen in India - Such evils are deep-rooted in the character of those who practice it. You cannot get such men rid of their nature/character. Ultimately the only resort you are left with, is to ensure the implementation of law to keep it in check, and along with that - educate the coming new generation to make sure it (the practice) doesn't bounce back. Once the older, corrupt generation is replaced by the newer better educated/informed one, such practices will be history. Until then, the nation has to keep struggling against it. It is a wait, but not too long in the long run.

among the locals i imagine it to be a matter of fear and helplessness. fear because they can't do anything about it and these men are powerful, and helplessness because the central government doesn't take notice or care.

u may of heard the saying that under the taliban regime, a person could haul a truck full of gold from one part of the country to the other without fear. this was especially meaningful since this was coming off the civil war where people were not even safe in their homes and there was no one to protect them. the reason for this was that the taliban dealt with theft with an iron fist, the same way they dealt with this sick practice.

if a few of these sick freaks were hung in public, the rate of this practice would drop down immensely. but then again, this government can't or wont even stop police bribery one block away from the presidential palace (as has been my experience) let alone tackle big issues like this. this is why people here say this practice is back at an all time high due to the american presence in the country, because its true.

america will never get involved or care about these issues. these are the same superficial people who believe that taking off a burka for a woman = freedom without even considering the fact they are probably widows, poor, homeless, and overburdened with children.

[KingKhan]

Also, the filthy fags that participate in this are also married with kids. They will never let their child dance for no man, but will take others.

[Valeri Petrofsky]

among the locals i imagine it to be a matter of fear and helplessness. fear because they can't do anything about it and these men are powerful, and helplessness because the central government doesn't take notice or care.

u may of heard the saying that under the taliban regime, a person could haul a truck full of gold from one part of the country to the other without fear. this was especially meaningful since this was coming off the civil war where people were not even safe in their homes and there was no one to protect them. the reason for this was that the taliban dealt with theft with an iron fist, the same way they dealt with this sick practice.

if a few of these sick freaks were hung in public, the rate of this practice would drop down immensely. but then again, this government can't or wont even stop police bribery one block away from the presidential palace (as has been my experience) let alone tackle big issues like this. this is why people here say this practice is back at an all time high due to the american presence in the country, because its true.

america will never get involved or care about these issues. these are the same superficial people who believe that taking off a burka for a woman = freedom without even considering the fact they are probably widows, poor, homeless, and overburdened with children.

I know Randolph, thinking that the US is there for the good of Afghanistan would be a terrible mistake out of ignorance. The US, or any other country, will have absolutely no interest whatsoever in the welfare of the Afghan people. The Burka thing is just for the US's domestic consumption where it is portrayed that every single woman is tortured and beaten, and that Burka is a forced veil that women want to come out of. But I think now even the Americans are tired of these lies fed to them.

About the administration, what I really mean, esp while debating with Khushal, is that with so many countries with such deep interest in Afghanistan, it will not be prudent to call for independence and self-determination. If one country leaves, the other will barge in. The US or India or Iran or Pakistan, none is saint. All of them have their own interests that they will focus on. In my view, the best option would be to look at it as an opportunity to build the infrastructure and wait it out. Let the government be of the people, and not of a group (I specifically mean the Taliban here, that very much wanted the deal to be signed with the UNOCAL).

If the oil pipelines from the Caspian to Pakistan/Iran are built, they are bound to go through Afghanistan, and the people will have to make sure the social infrastructure is sound enough to showcase the transparency of the transactions involved. Without such transparency, no amount of money can help the country. So, in my view, first step would be for the people to unite and show the administration that they are in check at all times. Only then can we found a developed Afghanistan.

[Valeri Petrofsky]

I'm going to try to get to the proof.
Imperialism is the greater evil. Imperialism is a disservice to both America and Afghanistan. I have already proven to you how afghans are suffering from this war. Why don't you shed some light on how America is benefiting from this war. When I say America, I'm talking about the average American Joe, not the elites or the corporations that are raping the American tax payer. Can you answer this question.

I am sorry Khushal, in the frenzy of replying promptly, I missed out quite a few of the posts. This question of yours, I can certainly answer!

The average Joe you are talking about, benefits immensely from this war - He buys cheap food, to pay for the expensive weapons. He now walks to the mall, because gas is expensive. He is padded all over when he boards a flight. He compromises with his honor because he is called an invader. He gets shoved into the corner when he stands in the sun holding the flag of his country while demanding justification for the war. He never misses a chance to feel guilty and loath himself for the mistakes of his government. And in the end, when he meets some outsider, he is forced to take a defensive stance. This is the same average Joe who is called a bloodthirsty Satan, to be killed at sight, in every other forum. Yea, he is the same average Joe who would go to any length and bring to light the dirty deeds of his own countrymen, that people around use to judge that same average Joe.

I hope you understand that the average Joe of the United States is not as uninformed and as unsympathetic as you might want to think.

In every war the soldiers turn into beasts, irrespective of their country/color/race.

Thanks for asking, but would have been better if we had discussed it in some relevant thread.

P.S. The language you use to describe the average Joe doesn't appear to be of the highest standard. I hope you will take some care next time.

[khushal]

I am sorry Khushal, in the frenzy of replying promptly, I missed out quite a few of the posts. This question of yours, I can certainly answer!

The average Joe you are talking about, benefits immensely from this war - He buys cheap food, to pay for the expensive weapons. He now walks to the mall, because gas is expensive. He is padded all over when he boards a flight. He compromises with his honor because he is called an invader. He gets shoved into the corner when he stands in the sun holding the flag of his country while demanding justification for the war. He never misses a chance to feel guilty and loath himself for the mistakes of his government. And in the end, when he meets some outsider, he is forced to take a defensive stance. This is the same average Joe who is called a bloodthirsty Satan, to be killed at sight, in every other forum. Yea, he is the same average Joe who would go to any length and bring to light the dirty deeds of his own countrymen, that people around use to judge that same average Joe.

I hope you understand that the average Joe of the United States is not as uninformed and as unsympathetic as you might want to think.

In every war the soldiers turn into beasts, irrespective of their country/color/race.

Thanks for asking, but would have been better if we had discussed it in some relevant thread.

P.S. The language you use to describe the average Joe doesn't appear to be of the highest standard. I hope you will take some care next time.

I think you are stereotyping me. I have nothing but sympathy for the average American Joe, because I am one of them. Americans that speak against this war doesn't make us any less of an American than yourself.
It is people with your kind of mentality that is going to weaken America. If you read how the Empires of Romans and Ottomans and the Moghals were weakened, it was because of their rulers close minded policies limiting their citizens freedoms causing division within their own citizens and having their imperial colonies rebel against them.

When I said that the elites and the corporations are raping the american tax payer, what I mean is that only corporations and afghan warlords are making money of this war and are actually the only beneficiary. My economics professor told me during the initial stages of the Iraq war was "these wars only transfer wealth from poor people(average american joe) in rich countries to rich people(afghan and Iraqi warlords and thugs) in poor countries." I asked him dont the rich people and corporations also benefit, he replied yes if they are involved in the war.
Companies like Haliburton and XE(blackwater) and numerous others have made billions of this war and they really don't want this war to end.

But you didnt answer my question, You just strengthened my argument that this war not only causes afghans to suffer but also Americans.

[khushal]

I suppose by parroting a lie, you hope it'll morph into a truth? It is an absolute fact that I have no family member in Afghanistan… land my family owned were taken by immoral Communist under “Islahat e Harze” we left our homes and everything we owned…now it sold 10 hands….my brother spend 2 years in thwart trying to get people out…some simply occupying some buying it from others…so theirs no personal gain here…other then a bleeding heart…watching enemy state Pakistan though Jahleen and murderous scams destroying my country. Thanks to your failed Talibi filth and the tyranny you unleashed, majority of people are praying for the continue stay of international forces… So yes, I fully support the international forces who kicked your ass, for it was for the defense of Afghan peoples liberties. I believed in the liberties of our people during PDPA, Jahdi, and Talibi tyrants then, and I believe in it now.

If your family is out than what are you worried about. Mind your own business. Spend your energy on rebuilding New Orleans. Yours and your children future will depend on rebuilding America not Afghanistan.

[Valeri Petrofsky]

I think you are stereotyping me. I have nothing but sympathy for the average American Joe, because I am one of them. Americans that speak against this war doesn't make us any less of an American than yourself.
It is people with your kind of mentality that is going to weaken America. If you read how the Empires of Romans and Ottomans and the Moghals were weakened, it was because of their rulers close minded policies limiting their citizens freedoms causing division within their own citizens and having their imperial colonies rebel against them.

Yea, you should talk about stereotyping.

So, what, apart from your baseless assumptions, makes you think that I am a pro-war American?

When I said that the elites and the corporations are raping the american tax payer, what I mean is that only corporations and afghan warlords are making money of this war and are actually the only beneficiary. My economics professor told me during the initial stages of the Iraq war was "these wars only transfer wealth from poor people(average american joe) in rich countries to rich people(afghan and Iraqi warlords and thugs) in poor countries." I asked him dont the rich people and corporations also benefit, he replied yes if they are involved in the war.
Companies like Haliburton and XE(blackwater) and numerous others have made billions of this war and they really don't want this war to end.

But you didnt answer my question, You just strengthened my argument that this war not only causes afghans to suffer but also Americans.

I am not aware of the question you are referring to. And why are you so hell-bent on painting me as some pro-war American?

About your economics professor, tell him this war is about the security of the nation. He should stick to what he is supposed to - teaching economics.

[graveyardofempires]

^
somebody please give this terrorist supporting troll a cookie so he can shut up.