The Bacha Bazi thread

[khushal]

See, I am not saying you should take your government as ideal, or completely stop criticizing it. I am only trying to compare the times, when you say it is way worse now than it was then. Now, at least I see people recognizing and bringing the evils out for others to question it.

I am not very sure if this was possible in those times. In a completely closed society that the Taliban had imposed on Afghanistan, few were there to find and eliminate the evil. The more freedom you have, the better informed you are. It helps cleanse the society. These are not honeymoon times for Afghanistan, so expecting too much out of this government would not be so wise. However, saying that it is way worse now than it was earlier, is outright negation of the good that came with it.

first of all your inaccurate when you say freedom are in afghanistan. But dont take my word for it. Here is Malalai Joya.
Malalai Joya: Don't be fooled by this democratic façade
by-this-democratic-facade-the-people-are-betrayed.html


President Hamid Karzai has cemented alliances with brutal warlords and fundamentalists in order to maintain his position. Although our constitution forbids war criminals from running for office, the incumbent has named two notorious militia commanders as his vice-presidential running mates – Karim Khalili and Mohammad Qasim Fahim, both of whom stand accused of brutalities against our people.
Deals have also been made with countless fundamentalists. This week saw the return from exile of the dreaded warlord Rashid Dostum. And the pro-Iranian extremist Mohammad Mohaqiq, who has been accused of war crimes, has been promised five cabinet positions for his party in exchange for supporting Mr Karzai.
Rather than democracy, what we have in Afghanistan are back-room deals among discredited warlords who are sworn enemies of democracy and justice.

Giving Freedom was just an excuse to occupy Afghanistan.
Why Canada must leave Afghanistan now : The Ryerson Free Press

Joya has also been fighting for women’s rights in Afghanistan, from the early days of the Taliban until now. She says: “The situation of women was, without a doubt, the best excuse for the US government to occupy our country—under the banner of women’s rights… But they pushed us from the frying pan into the fire.”

Did you read that "But they pushed us from the frying pan into the fire"

[Valeri Petrofsky]

first of all your inaccurate when you say freedom are in afghanistan. But dont take my word for it. Here is Malalai Joya.
Malalai Joya: Don't be fooled by this democratic façade
by-this-democratic-facade-the-people-are-betrayed.html


President Hamid Karzai has cemented alliances with brutal warlords and fundamentalists in order to maintain his position. Although our constitution forbids war criminals from running for office, the incumbent has named two notorious militia commanders as his vice-presidential running mates – Karim Khalili and Mohammad Qasim Fahim, both of whom stand accused of brutalities against our people.
Deals have also been made with countless fundamentalists. This week saw the return from exile of the dreaded warlord Rashid Dostum. And the pro-Iranian extremist Mohammad Mohaqiq, who has been accused of war crimes, has been promised five cabinet positions for his party in exchange for supporting Mr Karzai.
Rather than democracy, what we have in Afghanistan are back-room deals among discredited warlords who are sworn enemies of democracy and justice.

Giving Freedom was just an excuse to occupy Afghanistan.
Why Canada must leave Afghanistan now : The Ryerson Free Press

Joya has also been fighting for women’s rights in Afghanistan, from the early days of the Taliban until now. She says: “The situation of women was, without a doubt, the best excuse for the US government to occupy our country—under the banner of women’s rights… But they pushed us from the frying pan into the fire.”

Did you read that "But they pushed us from the frying pan into the fire"

Yes, I read it all. Both the articles, about the same woman, one written by herself, the other from some freepress.

Miss Joya does have a lot of noise, but little substance. Here's my reasoning:

On one hand she says...

"President Hamid Karzai has cemented alliances with brutal warlords and fundamentalists in order to maintain his position. Although our constitution forbids war criminals from running for office, the incumbent has named two notorious militia commanders as his vice-presidential running mates – Karim Khalili and Mohammad Qasim Fahim, both of whom stand accused of brutalities against our people."

Apparently, the sin of Karzai lies in inclusion of warlords and fundamentalists in his team. Okay, so the fundamentalists are the main problem, not Karzai in himself.

Then, it is claimed that Joya has also been fighting for women’s rights in Afghanistan, from the early days of the Taliban until now. She says: “The situation of women was, without a doubt, the best excuse for the US government to occupy our country—under the banner of women’s rights… But they pushed us from the frying pan into the fire.”

I am supposing,

Frying Pan = The Taliban
Fire = Karzai Government.

Now... either the warlords and fundamentalists are the biggest problem... or the Karzai government which is the fire, in comparison to the frying pan that Taliban was.

She has a lot of rhetoric in her, but fails miserably in clearing her position.

You tell me Khushal, would Joya be able to visit Canada and the US to expand her campaign during the Taliban times? Would she have been able to join the Parliament, that too in accordance to the law?

She is at best, with all her strength, undermining perhaps the only possible efforts to bring democracy in Afghanistan. It is just the beginning for Afghanistan. The corruption and collusion that she shouts about, prevail in every single country of this world. I do not understand how can she even compare these times to the Taliban times, when she would have been perhaps flogged for letting people see her pictures, leave alone travel around the world to find ears for her words.

I just hope people do not pay much heed to her, otherwise everyone will think people of Afghanistan desire and deserve the Taliban government.

[faye]

i think valeri you need to read her book to see more about her than to judge her from small snippets of information. the fire she might be referring to is the military abuses, bombs, intrusions of homes during night raids, white phosphorous, depleted uranium, deliberate slaughter of children and other citizens etc,etc,etc. plus a government that she was voted into and banned from, threatened with rape and death hmmmm...perhaps this is the fire she is talking about. i may be wrong.

[Valeri Petrofsky]

i think valeri you need to read her book to see more about her than to judge her from small snippets of information. the fire she might be referring to is the military abuses, bombs, intrusions of homes during night raids, white phosphorous, depleted uranium, deliberate slaughter of children and other citizens etc,etc,etc. plus a government that she was voted into and banned from, threatened with rape and death hmmmm...perhaps this is the fire she is talking about. i may be wrong.

Faye, you may be right too. But I am an ignorant for sure when it comes to Afghanistan. I am a common foreigner. I can only see what is presented to me.

Khushal presented me with Joya's versions, and I read it all and found some holes. In any true story, no matter how boring or how badly written, there are no holes. No cliches.

Let me start with my personal experience. I live in India and the US. Two democracies, but poles apart.

All the allegations Joya lays on the government of Taliban, are quite rampant in India too, and in a more disguised way, in the US as well. The only difference is how prevalent are they in the respective countries. It has not even been a decade since Afghanistan came out of the Taliban regime and adopted a democracy. Rather than giving it some time, everyone is expecting it to be a model country in one day and surpass the happiness index of Luxembourg.

It never happens like that. One has to give it time, and understand he/she is in a country that is struggling to stand on its own. Rather than help the country, if you are busy chopping its legs, then well, only God can help.

Oh, and about the "white phosphorous, depleted uranium, deliberate slaughter of children and other citizens..." I would so appreciate if there are some proofs.

Also, by deliberate slaughter if you are referring to the recent bombing where 9 Afghan children died, then it is not deliberate. No one wants to waste resources in anything that won't fetch any goodwill, and might rather force them to apologize. No one deliberately wants to earn these blots. It was a terrible mistake, and was acknowledge so too.

[faye]

if you give me proof that potshotting 9 children at about 11 o'clock, daytime, from hovering helicopters, were not deliberate assasinations then i will give you proof of the other. it is easy though, just google 'use of depleted uranium, afghanistan' etc.

[khushal]

Yes, I read it all. Both the articles, about the same woman, one written by herself, the other from some freepress.

Miss Joya does have a lot of noise, but little substance. Here's my reasoning:

On one hand she says...

"President Hamid Karzai has cemented alliances with brutal warlords and fundamentalists in order to maintain his position. Although our constitution forbids war criminals from running for office, the incumbent has named two notorious militia commanders as his vice-presidential running mates – Karim Khalili and Mohammad Qasim Fahim, both of whom stand accused of brutalities against our people."

Apparently, the sin of Karzai lies in inclusion of warlords and fundamentalists in his team. Okay, so the fundamentalists are the main problem, not Karzai in himself.

Then, it is claimed that Joya has also been fighting for women’s rights in Afghanistan, from the early days of the Taliban until now. She says: “The situation of women was, without a doubt, the best excuse for the US government to occupy our country—under the banner of women’s rights… But they pushed us from the frying pan into the fire.”

I am supposing,

Frying Pan = The Taliban
Fire = Karzai Government.

Now... either the warlords and fundamentalists are the biggest problem... or the Karzai government which is the fire, in comparison to the frying pan that Taliban was.

She has a lot of rhetoric in her, but fails miserably in clearing her position.

You tell me Khushal, would Joya be able to visit Canada and the US to expand her campaign during the Taliban times? Would she have been able to join the Parliament, that too in accordance to the law?

She is at best, with all her strength, undermining perhaps the only possible efforts to bring democracy in Afghanistan. It is just the beginning for Afghanistan. The corruption and collusion that she shouts about, prevail in every single country of this world. I do not understand how can she even compare these times to the Taliban times, when she would have been perhaps flogged for letting people see her pictures, leave alone travel around the world to find ears for her words.

I just hope people do not pay much heed to her, otherwise everyone will think people of Afghanistan desire and deserve the Taliban government.

The warlords and the fundamentalist = the Karzai government. The Karzai government is not one person. She lived and experienced in both times so she would be more of an authority than you and I combined.
In today's afghanistan women are still flogged, and she cant run for parliament in todays afghanistan because she speaks the truth. What freedom are you talking about when you are not allowed to speak the truth. This is where you err. Today's afghanistan has no freedoms that you speak of. I am sure you have seen this TIME cover.



Now it says "What happens if we leave Afghanistan" But Ms. Joya says that the cover is misrepresenting the reality. It should say "What is happening while we are staying in Afghanistan"

I'm no fan of the Taliban, what I am a fan of is letting the afghan nation go through its natural social evolution. Let the afghans figure it out for themselves through trial and error.

[faizkhan]

ajeeba khyal di karay na day!!
bacha bazi!!

[Valeri Petrofsky]

The warlords and the fundamentalist = the Karzai government. The Karzai government is not one person. She lived and experienced in both times so she would be more of an authority than you and I combined.
In today's afghanistan women are still flogged, and she cant run for parliament in todays afghanistan because she speaks the truth. What freedom are you talking about when you are not allowed to speak the truth. This is where you err. Today's afghanistan has no freedoms that you speak of. I am sure you have seen this TIME cover.



Now it says "What happens if we leave Afghanistan" But Ms. Joya says that the cover is misrepresenting the reality. It should say "What is happening while we are staying in Afghanistan"

I'm no fan of the Taliban, what I am a fan of is letting the afghan nation go through its natural social evolution. Let the afghans figure it out for themselves through trial and error.

Thank you for your well thought out reply Khushal.

I do understand that you and I are ignorant (More I than you) of the conditions in Afghanistan when compared with the experiences of Ms. Joya.

Still that photo is printed there in a different context, and Ms. Joya wants us to look at it in her own context. Now the truth lies in between. Either that girl was disfigured during the Taliban time, or during Karzai time. Will have to find it out, right?

Meanwhile, I will tell you, your trial and error will never work. Why? Because it never did. If the US is not there, then Taliban will be. If they also spare Afghanistan, then Pakistan will step in. If not even Pakistan, then Iran is there. If even Iran steps out, then India is there. Your trial and error is that hypothetical desire that will never come true. What you want may be very right, but it is also not practical.


Oh, here it is:

"
At age 12, Aisha and her younger sister were given to the family of a Taliban fighter in Oruzgan Province under a tribal custom for settling disputes, known as “baad.” Aisha’s uncle had killed a relative of the groom to be, and according to the custom, to settle the blood debt her father gave the two girls to the victim’s family.





Once Aisha reached puberty, she was married to the Taliban fighter, but since he was in hiding most of the time, she and her sister were housed with the in-laws’ livestock and used as slaves, frequently beaten as punishment for their uncle’s crime.
Aisha fled the abuse, but her husband tracked her down in Kandahar a year ago, took her back to Oruzgan, and on a lonely mountainside cut off her nose and both ears and left her bleeding. She said she still did not remember how she managed to walk away to find help."


Ms Joya, whom you keep in such high regard is, after all, a liar.

[khushal]

Faye, you may be right too. But I am an ignorant for sure when it comes to Afghanistan. I am a common foreigner. I can only see what is presented to me.

Khushal presented me with Joya's versions, and I read it all and found some holes. In any true story, no matter how boring or how badly written, there are no holes. No cliches.

Let me start with my personal experience. I live in India and the US. Two democracies, but poles apart.

All the allegations Joya lays on the government of Taliban, are quite rampant in India too, and in a more disguised way, in the US as well. The only difference is how prevalent are they in the respective countries. It has not even been a decade since Afghanistan came out of the Taliban regime and adopted a democracy. Rather than giving it some time, everyone is expecting it to be a model country in one day and surpass the happiness index of Luxembourg.

It never happens like that. One has to give it time, and understand he/she is in a country that is struggling to stand on its own. Rather than help the country, if you are busy chopping its legs, then well, only God can help.

Oh, and about the "white phosphorous, depleted uranium, deliberate slaughter of children and other citizens..." I would so appreciate if there are some proofs.

Also, by deliberate slaughter if you are referring to the recent bombing where 9 Afghan children died, then it is not deliberate. No one wants to waste resources in anything that won't fetch any goodwill, and might rather force them to apologize. No one deliberately wants to earn these blots. It was a terrible mistake, and was acknowledge so too.

The deliberate slaughter and torture of people has been well documented. there is a thread about the US soldiers on trial for murdering afghans and then taking pics of them and collecting body parts as war trophy. These people are the ones that got caught and a cover up wasnt possible, but there are hundreds of others that have not gotten caught and cover up was possible. Remember the mai lai massacre in Viatnam. That was uncovered years after it actually happened and a US General was involved in the cover up.

These crimes would not be occurring if NATO forces were not there. I know you have been conditioned that the US government is the best government and is not capable of crimes even if proof is shown, you still wont believe it.

[Valeri Petrofsky]

The deliberate slaughter and torture of people has been well documented. there is a thread about the US soldiers on trial for murdering afghans and then taking pics of them and collecting body parts as war trophy. These people are the ones that got caught and a cover up wasnt possible, but there are hundreds of others that have not gotten caught and cover up was possible. Remember the mai lai massacre in Viatnam. That was uncovered years after it actually happened and a US General was involved in the cover up.

Tell me a country where numerous crimes do not go unreported. Tell me a country where even the topmost authorities at one time or another are not involved in hiding the dirty deeds. I am not advocating crime, nor am I trying to define a norm. I am only saying you should not be advocating a greater evil against a lesser one.

These crimes would not be occurring if NATO forces were not there. I know you have been conditioned that the US government is the best government and is not capable of crimes even if proof is shown, you still wont believe it.

You know absolutely nothing about me, except for the fact that I have seen the movie "The Fourth Protocol". Your allegation is completely baseless, without any logic or proof.

[khushal]

Thank you for your well thought out reply Khushal.

I do understand that you and I are ignorant (More I than you) of the conditions in Afghanistan when compared with the experiences of Ms. Joya.

Still that photo is printed there in a different context, and Ms. Joya wants us to look at it in her own context. Now the truth lies in between. Either that girl was disfigured during the Taliban time, or during Karzai time. Will have to find it out, right?

Meanwhile, I will tell you, your trial and error will never work. Why? Because it never did. If the US is not there, then Taliban will be. If they also spare Afghanistan, then Pakistan will step in. If not even Pakistan, then Iran is there. If even Iran steps out, then India is there. Your trial and error is that hypothetical desire that will never come true. What you want may be very right, but it is also not practical.


Oh, here it is:

"
At age 12, Aisha and her younger sister were given to the family of a Taliban fighter in Oruzgan Province under a tribal custom for settling disputes, known as “baad.” Aisha’s uncle had killed a relative of the groom to be, and according to the custom, to settle the blood debt her father gave the two girls to the victim’s family.





Once Aisha reached puberty, she was married to the Taliban fighter, but since he was in hiding most of the time, she and her sister were housed with the in-laws’ livestock and used as slaves, frequently beaten as punishment for their uncle’s crime.
Aisha fled the abuse, but her husband tracked her down in Kandahar a year ago, took her back to Oruzgan, and on a lonely mountainside cut off her nose and both ears and left her bleeding. She said she still did not remember how she managed to walk away to find help."


Ms Joya, whom you keep in such high regard is, after all, a liar.

Valeri,

This happened during NATO's occupation. She was 18 when she came to the US last year, if it happened pre 2001 then she was less than 9 years old when she got married, enslaved, escaped, captured and punished.

It like Newtons law.
Natural Social evolution works to the betterment of the people unless interfered by outside force. Afghans would be better off If there are no foreign forces present. Even if Pakistan or Iran or India is involved in proxy wars, a dominant group will eventually take over and they will work for their own interests. Thats the way it works in every nation. The people's interests come first.
Remember the American revolution "taxation without representation" If the people's interests are not addressed, than there is violence which is what we are witnessing today.

[Valeri Petrofsky]

Oh well, I am as far as I could get from the topic. It would be nice if someone sheds some more light on the problem that the topic addresses.

[graveyardofempires]

agreed with khushal,kakargirl,Faye

as for valerie
he/she needs to look things for how they are instead of how they are projected for him/her.
Its better to get the first hand info from us than from some brit or american who wrote and article or a book about it.
The story about Aisha as they call her is bogus ,it wasnt taliban justice it was lack of justice and this has nothing to do with Islam either,its called peoples corruption.
hell,this could even be ordered by foreign forces so they could use later as propaganda.
welcome to the real world.

[faye]

it would have been nice of valeri to have apologised for calling malalai joya a liar.

[khushal]

Tell me a country where numerous crimes do not go unreported. Tell me a country where even the topmost authorities at one time or another are not involved in hiding the dirty deeds. I am not advocating crime, nor am I trying to define a norm. I am only saying you should not be advocating a greater evil against a lesser one.



You know absolutely nothing about me, except for the fact that I have seen the movie "The Fourth Protocol". Your allegation is completely baseless, without any logic or proof.

I'm going to try to get to the proof.
Imperialism is the greater evil. Imperialism is a disservice to both America and Afghanistan. I have already proven to you how afghans are suffering from this war. Why don't you shed some light on how America is benefiting from this war. When I say America, I'm talking about the average American Joe, not the elites or the corporations that are raping the American tax payer. Can you answer this question.