How can Pashtuns shield against imperialism...

[Toramana]

Pashtun identity and well being is under attack from many different kinds of imperialisms. Let us classify them and think how to respond to these different kinds of imperialist thrusts. Below is my classification of the imperialisms that are affecting or threatening Pashtuns.

1. Expansionist Adversial-Destructive Imperialism

I will call this Urdu-Hindi Imperialsim. This is the imperialism with origin in Pakistan and the rest of South Asia and representing the cultural, ideological, and civilizational expansionist agenda of Indian Muslim community to extend its values and cultural influence to the north-west towards Central Asia and Middle East. Culturally, this type of imperialism wants to indianize Pashtuns i.e. to eliminate the distinctive character of Pashtun Culture and to transform it into a kind of Indo-Pashtun culture that is more Indic than pure Pashtun.

Apart from culture, the motives of this kind of imperialism are also economical and political i.e. it wants to bring peripheral communities like Pashtuns and Baluchis under the political domination of Punjabi-Muhajir lead Pakistan and to have access to the natural resources and trade-routes of Pashtun land as well as Central Asia.

It is far more dangerours to Pashtuns than other imperialisms.

2. Expansionist adversial-retrogressive mperialism

This kind of imperialism should more appropriately be called Arab Imperialism. The motives of this imperialism are to use Pashtun Land and prowess for tactical gains against its adversaries i.e. settle scores with Israel and US and to counter potential rivals like Iran and Turkey in struggle for influence in the so-called Muslim world. This imperialism also aims to transform Pashtun Culture into a kind of Arabised culture without its independent Pashtun spirit.

This is in alliance with the first kind of imperialism and is by for the most backward and retrogressive imperialism that if truimphant against Pashtun values and spirit might convert Pashtun society into a dictatorship with no regard for civility and human creativity.

3. Globalist hegemonic-progressive imperialism

This kind of imperialism is represented by US. Its aim is fundamentally not to transform Pashtun Culture. It is more concerned with maintaining its dominant position vis-a'-vis the rival powers. As such, it needs the strategic location of Pashtuns. Like all great powers in history, this kind of imperialism is also callous in pursuing its agenda...

However, fundamentally progressive, if Pashtuns cooperate, it may show some mercy towards Pashtuns and help them in terms of development.

4. Balancing adversial-competitive pseudo-imperialism...

Such kind of imperialist tendency can be seen in the ethnicities neighbouring Pashtuns especially in the north-west who want to strengthen their political position vis-a'-vis Pashtuns or attain some kind of parity with Pashtuns if not disproportionate acquisition of power in terms of politics. They i.e. the representatives and leaders of this imperialism also want to maintain and emphasize the historical superiority of their culture...So the motives of this kind of imperialism are political and cultural...

How can Pashtuns shield themselves against these various kinds of imperialism...?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Pashtun identity and well being is under attack from many different kinds of imperialisms. Let us classify them and think how to respond to these different kinds of imperialist thrusts. Below is my classification of the imperialisms that are affecting or threatening Pashtuns.

1. Expansionist Adversial-Destructive Imperialism

I will call this Urdu-Hindi Imperialsim. This is the imperialism with origin in Pakistan and the rest of South Asia and representing the cultural, ideological, and civilizational expansionist agenda of Indian Muslim community to extend its values and cultural influence to the north-west towards Central Asia and Middle East. Culturally, this type of imperialism wants to indianize Pashtuns i.e. to eliminate the distinctive character of Pashtun Culture and to transform it into a kind of Indo-Pashtun culture that is more Indic than pure Pashtun.

Apart from culture, the motives of this kind of imperialism are also economical and political i.e. it wants to bring peripheral communities like Pashtuns and Baluchis under the political domination of Punjabi-Muhajir lead Pakistan and to have access to the natural resources and trade-routes of Pashtun land as well as Central Asia.

It is far more dangerours to Pashtuns than other imperialisms.

2. Expansionist adversial-retrogressive mperialism

This kind of imperialism should more appropriately be called Arab Imperialism. The motives of this imperialism are to use Pashtun Land and prowess for tactical gains against its adversaries i.e. settle scores with Israel and US and to counter potential rivals like Iran and Turkey in struggle for influence in the so-called Muslim world. This imperialism also aims to transform Pashtun Culture into a kind of Arabised culture without its independent Pashtun spirit.

This is in alliance with the first kind of imperialism and is by for the most backward and retrogressive imperialism that if truimphant against Pashtun values and spirit might convert Pashtun society into a dictatorship with no regard for civility and human creativity.

3. Globalist hegemonic-progressive imperialism

This kind of imperialism is represented by US. Its aim is fundamentally not to transform Pashtun Culture. It is more concerned with maintaining its dominant position vis-a'-vis the rival powers. As such, it needs the strategic location of Pashtuns. Like all great powers in history, this kind of imperialism is also callous in pursuing its agenda...

However, fundamentally progressive, if Pashtuns cooperate, it may show some mercy towards Pashtuns and help them in terms of development.

4. Balancing adversial-competitive pseudo-imperialism...

Such kind of imperialist tendency can be seen in the ethnicities neighbouring Pashtuns especially in the north-west who want to strengthen their political position vis-a'-vis Pashtuns or attain some kind of parity with Pashtuns if not disproportionate acquisition of power in terms of politics. They i.e. the representatives and leaders of this imperialism also want to maintain and emphasize the historical superiority of their culture...So the motives of this kind of imperialism are political and cultural...

How can Pashtuns shield themselves against these various kinds of imperialism...?

1. Nothing you can do on the KP side of the border... its a lost cause. All you can hope for there is Pashtun political ascendency and possibly army defection like you are seeing in Libya/Egypt. If Pakistan forces a North Waziristan operation or undertakes serious operations in the former NWFP perhaps you can get frontier corpsmen to refuse orders. There is a great deal of respect for the Pakistani army in the NWFP. Show me numbers and show me stats on who is willing to secede before I believe the ANP propaganda otherwise. There are stats for Afghanistan showing that Afghan Pashtuns are ready to join their brothers... but not NWFP stats. Stats should be preferably not Farhat Taj ANDERSEN derived.

2. Do what Sudan did. Say No to the usage of the land for a war of attrition.

3. This is as ridiculous as Osho's tooth fairy and wish for a quarter style mentality. If you accept 3 then you should have no problem with 2. Be consistent. 3 is laced with occupation by a non Muslim entity. That automatically obligates a Muslim populace to fight a defensive insurgency. That is not me talking, thats scriptural fact.

The logic here is: they will give us money, they will give us technology, etc. So what? Saudi also pumps money into places. Money is worthless without independence.

4. Explain this concept as I am not sure what you mean.

[randolph85]

i disagree on the types of imperialism afghanistan is up against, especially arab imperialism. afghanistan is strategically unimportant to arabs. the only arabs who have a stake in afghanistan today are the al qaeda types. they are small in number and the threat they pose to afghans is more of an excuse by the other imperialists to impose their will on the country. so the threat they pose vs the threat other imperialists pose while using these arabs as a pretext.... the west is far more of a threat. if its not the arabs that the west is using as a pretext, it would be something else. america hasnt spent a trillion dollars waging an unwinable war for the sake of a small group of arabs. there are other interests involved.

afghanistans biggest enemy is not the west, the east, or anyone else, its afghans themselves. at the end of the day, people like karzai, hekmatyar, omar, rabbani, abdullah, khalilzad, and other players are all afghan. there are different puppet masters attached to these guys but they are all undeniably afghan. without collaboration, imperialism in afghanistan would not work. we can get into the whole deal about what a true afghan is and all that good stuff but it doesnt change the fact that its afghans who are fighting afghans.


imperialism is imposed by the strong onto the weak. what makes us weak and what can we do to correct it? if afghans learned from their mistakes, we would be an insanely strong nation by now. instead we keep repeating the same mistakes and our history is like a broken record.

[Toramana]

1. Nothing you can do on the KP side of the border... its a lost cause. All you can hope for there is Pashtun political ascendency and possibly army defection like you are seeing in Libya/Egypt. If Pakistan forces a North Waziristan operation or undertakes serious operations in the former NWFP perhaps you can get frontier corpsmen to refuse orders. There is a great deal of respect for the Pakistani army in the NWFP. Show me numbers and show me stats on who is willing to secede before I believe the ANP propaganda otherwise. There are stats for Afghanistan showing that Afghan Pashtuns are ready to join their brothers... but not NWFP stats. Stats should be preferably not Farhat Taj ANDERSEN derived.

2. Do what Sudan did. Say No to the usage of the land for a war of attrition.

3. This is as ridiculous as Osho's tooth fairy and wish for a quarter style mentality. If you accept 3 then you should have no problem with 2. Be consistent. 3 is laced with occupation by a non Muslim entity. That automatically obligates a Muslim populace to fight a defensive insurgency. That is not me talking, thats scriptural fact.

The logic here is: they will give us money, they will give us technology, etc. So what? Saudi also pumps money into places. Money is worthless without independence.

4. Explain this concept as I am not sure what you mean.

I know Abdali what has irked you...Nothing could be more irritating to you than mentioning the imperialism of Arabs and Pakistanis, your brethern in faith, whose subservience is acceptable to you on the basis of religious association. If defensive insurgency is obligatory for Muslims, then it doesn't suit you enjoying the lavishes of the the land against which you are inciting people to rise in defensive insurgency against. Mecca would be a better place for you to take shelter in.

The jehad is also obligatory for you. You on the contrary are taking oath of loyalty to a system that you consider infidel--obviously for good life whereas at the same time are asking the poor brethern back home to fight without any care for the lives of millions of sisters, mothers, daughters, childern, and elders, etc. Is not it hypocisy?

[emkhan]

i disagree on the types of imperialism afghanistan is up against, especially arab imperialism. afghanistan is strategically unimportant to arabs. the only arabs who have a stake in afghanistan today are the al qaeda types. they are small in number and the threat they pose to afghans is more of an excuse by the other imperialists to impose their will on the country. so the threat they pose vs the threat other imperialists pose while using these arabs as a pretext.... the west is far more of a threat. if its not the arabs that the west is using as a pretext, it would be something else. america hasnt spent a trillion dollars waging an unwinable war for the sake of a small group of arabs. there are other interests involved.

afghanistans biggest enemy is not the west, the east, or anyone else, its afghans themselves. at the end of the day, people like karzai, hekmatyar, omar, rabbani, abdullah, khalilzad, and other players are all afghan. there are different puppet masters attached to these guys but they are all undeniably afghan. without collaboration, imperialism in afghanistan would not work. we can get into the whole deal about what a true afghan is and all that good stuff but it doesnt change the fact that its afghans who are fighting afghans.


imperialism is imposed by the strong onto the weak. what makes us weak and what can we do to correct it? if afghans learned from their mistakes, we would be an insanely strong nation by now. instead we keep repeating the same mistakes and our history is like a broken record.

very true... Afghans are responsible for their own destruction. why dont they unite. and i ask a simple question for the sake of knowledge ?
why the pashto language is being declared a second language of afghanistan though pashtoons are in majority.
nobody talks about that ?

[Toramana]

very true... Afghans are responsible for their own destruction. why dont they unite. and i ask a simple question for the sake of knowledge ?
why the pashto language is being declared a second language of afghanistan though pashtoons are in majority.
nobody talks about that ?

Why the same you don't do in Pakistan where you Pashto in not even a fourth-rated language...on the contrary are so loyal to Punjabis....?

[emkhan]

this is the same old fashioned style, when you dont have answer to a questions you starts asking, why are you not doing this, why is he not doing that.
just give it up and answer what you are asked then if you ask then i will answer to the best of my knowledge. by this you are trying to cover your weaknesses. hehehe

[Toramana]

Toramana,

The first thing you should have mentioned in the failing US war, but I see that is not even a concern you have.

I will say this one last time: there is a huge difference between the treachery of the Pakistani nation (which is against all true Muslims, and specifically Pashtuns) and the type of clash you are portraying. Yes, obviously, Pashtuns want their rights, but not in the way you are looking at it.

You are portraying some dream ideals of secularism that don't exist.


At this time, the major failing war against Afghanistan (and Pashtuns) is being perpetrated in mainland Afghanistan. The cultural clash is ongoing in KP and FATA. There is a huge difference. While napak army has tried to punish the people, time and time again, they have retreated. My guess though is that you support the Pakistani military campaigns against the Pashtuns in KP and FATA?

The first thing is, secularism and secular ideals are very alive and serving a large swath of humanity including you ...Had it failed, some red-neck would have thrown you into the Atlantic at the first moment...The very fact that you while sitting in a secular society have the freedom to talk against it indicates its strength and sustenance...

Imagine if you were a citizen of the state of Mullah Omar living in some cave and had talked against his ideals, he would have roasted you alive....

[BLS_1919v2.0]

this is the same old fashioned style, when you dont have answer to a questions you starts asking, why are you not doing this, why is he not doing that.
just give it up and answer what you are asked then if you ask then i will answer to the best of my knowledge. by this you are trying to cover your weaknesses. hehehe

EMkhan the issue of Afghanistan reflect a general problem with Pashtuns in general. You are from Swat, prior to 1969 pashto was the official language and people were educated in it (with farsi being the vernacular for a lot of the religious studies). After 1969, we were learning the same old pakistani/hindustani historical narrative in their languages. This is a problem in Afghanistan, but had we Pashtuns as a people started politically united a lot of the fundamental issues of Pashtuns would have been better off. Look at what Pakistan establishment (if a beast like this exists) did to Swat or FATA. There is no moral reason for a Pashtunkhwa pashtun to defend it.

[emkhan]

secularism in this region is not actually possible. religion is running in these people's viens. so talking about this fitna is nothing but waste of time.

[emkhan]

EMkhan the issue of Afghanistan reflect a general problem with Pashtuns in general. You are from Swat, prior to 1969 pashto was the official language and people were educated in it (with farsi being the vernacular for a lot of the religious studies). After 1969, we were learning the same old pakistani/hindustani historical narrative in their languages. This is a problem in Afghanistan, but had we Pashtuns as a people started politically united a lot of the fundamental issues of Pashtuns would have been better off. Look at what Pakistan establishment (if a beast like this exists) did to Swat or FATA. There is no moral reason for a Pashtunkhwa pashtun to defend it.

Exactly thats what i am talking about. we pukhtuns lack unity and then we blame others for our destruction. look, the enemy's job is to destroy you so how can you expect good tidings from your enemy ?
what you need to do is to be unite and stand for your identity. but unfortunately at both sides of the border there is no one to take this initiative... all are hiding with fear, fear, fear and because of vested interests

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I know Abdali what has irked you...Nothing could be more irritating to you than mentioning the imperialism of Arabs and Pakistanis, your brethern in faith, whose subservience is acceptable to you on the basis of religious association. If defensive insurgency is obligatory for Muslims, then it doesn't suit you enjoying the lavishes of the the land against which you are inciting people to rise in defensive insurgency against. Mecca would be a better place for you to take shelter in.

The jehad is also obligatory for you. You on the contrary are taking oath of loyalty to a system that you consider infidel--obviously for good life whereas at the same time are asking the poor brethern back home to fight without any care for the lives of millions of sisters, mothers, daughters, childern, and elders, etc. Is not it hypocisy?

You once again are seeing those Pan Islamic shadows boxing each other.

You took it as if I was passing a fatwa about defensive jihad. I am commenting on what is going on, not what I want to go on, what must go on at my behest, or what I wish for. Let me repeat, its an observational comment on a phenomenon going on over there.

Did you read my last post here before shouting to the hills about what irks me?

http://www.pashtunforums.com/literat...21/index4.html

Let me quote myself from that post:
"Now, the issue that Toramana and others may have, and that Scheuer documents with much detail is the planning undertaken to utilize Afghanistan and the Pashtun belt in general as a theater of war without the permission of Pashtuns:

Admittedly, it is written that Mr. Bin Ladin had detailed intricate planning for a war of attrition to take on "the far enemy" that propped up "the near enemy."

This has nothing to do with me or you or our ideologies. Im pointing out that just as Christians have communion, just as Jews have various laws/rituals, defensive jihad is a prescribed modality of responding to aggressive action in Muslim territories.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_jihad

Im explaining out the response that is occuring and what ideals motivate the insurgency. They are not fighting for tea and biscuits Toramana. They have stated that they are fighting without the direction of a Caliphate giving the order based on the one single condition that activates a defensive jihad: foreign non Islamic occupation.

Under Islamic law, there is no need for a Caliphate to declare what is termed defensive jihad.

Its no different than the Iraq phenomenon. I want nothing at all to do with Iran, Iraq, Somalia, etc. However, I am explaining to you that what occurs when NATO troops are within Afghanistan is that the notion of defensive jihad is activated in about the same way that the body activates its immune response when a foreign agent tries to infect the body.

Let me repeat: I am explaining what is going on now Toramana... not advocating defensive, offensive, upside down, right side up, or left/right/left jihad.

I was elucidating the impracticality of NATO forces being the force for good that you claim based on this response that will occur in the Afghan populace no matter what you or I say about it.

[Toramana]

secularism in this region is not actually possible. religion is running in these people's viens. so talking about this fitna is nothing but waste of time.

Talibanism and fundamentalism (or Islamo-fascism) are also not possible either...Liberal and secular ideals run deep in Pashtun society thanks the inherent secular nature of Pashtun traditions and struggle of our revered leaders e.g. Bacha Khan, etc.

The natural balance will be reversion to typical Pashtun traditional society prior to 1980s conservative in terms of traditional values but not religious or theocratic in political terms.

Just go to Karkhanai or any tribal agency and see how secular it is ...

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Exactly thats what i am talking about. we pukhtuns lack unity and then we blame others for our destruction. look, the enemy's job is to destroy you so how can you expect good tidings from your enemy ?
what you need to do is to be unite and stand for your identity. but unfortunately at both sides of the border there is no one to take this initiative... all are hiding with fear, fear, fear and because of vested interests

Wuss dae da kaar khabara okrrla wrora. Now that you and I recognize the folly of our people we should work to unify them. Our lands have been destroyed we should work to unite our Afghan/Pakhtun brethren on both sides. Let us work together and at least start bridging, rebuilding, helping each other. Isn't that a good start?

[emkhan]

yes true... we should make our people strong.
i love my people but for that you have to stop the mouths of all those who are spreading hatred against those pukhtuns who are in pakistan. we are all the same