A salute to the brave massess of North Africa

[Admin Khan]

I dont know about funding the protests...

The US is notorious for funding protests. Would you agree that the US is actively attempting to create protests in Iran? Hell, they even launched a twitter page in Farsi to counter Persian influence. We have to realize the US policy makers think way ahead of time. They analyze these situations, they know what to do, and when to do it. I honestly think the US still has complete control on most Egyptian/Arab affairs. The US can't just let the largest Arab nation, the only nation that gets along with Israel, leave it's hands. Eygpt is the only Arab nation with a disciplined and modern military, and the US can't afford to see them fall in the hands of a group that has a anti-US voice.

but I 100% agree with you that the armed services, similar to the situation in Pakistan, are US funded. The fact that policy internally has not changed but the face of leadership has appears to be supported by what Mike points out above at the end of his excellent pieces:

I have heard that when the US provides these F16s, they are programmed to destruct at Americas will. So if Kayani decides to be naughty, they can make most of their American equipment dysfunctional. I guess this is Americas way of exerting influence?

BA,
there was a famous Saudi Mullah who said somethign along the lines of "The protests in Egypt are Haram".
I just find it amazing. It's funny how Islam is used by many as a tool to serve their purposes.


Also, I find the USA's influence on countries thousands of miles away to be astonishing. I think Egyptians in general have a pretty positive opinion of the USA.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I know its wierd, if Baygham actually read what you wrote and read closely he would not be psychologically splitting you into one category of people that ipso facto support the Taliban. I do not know where in any of the postings either the two of us have made have we supported a Taliban emirate spanning from sea to shining sea.

I have this same problem with Toramana; as you have witnessed he persistently accuses me of being an Arab Nationalist and striving for "camelism" or desert concerns; only because I admitted my mom is Arab.

I asked him to show a direct reference in anything I've said where I advocated anything of the sort, and he skirted past the quiestion.

these accusations are just smokescreen tactics that Baygham and Toramana use, they think we'll get tired and just cave in. Well best of luck to them then.

[Baygham]

That is why no one takes you seriously... because you cannot provide evidence, logic, or historical precedent. In your world those are gibberish.. which is fine because then you validate the idea that you are really on par with the kalaay koorwala more than someone whose word matters.

Note that the U of M poll says as much, but it places emphasis on the Islamic character of what is wanted by the people. You attempt, true to your nonevidence based fashion, to distort this into a clear win for secularist democracy... which also true to your history of posting, as an emotional, illogical, and nonevidence based construct of reality.

"These surveys do however suggest that there is a kind of internal clash of civilizations or at least some tension of civilizations. For example while large majorities support the principle that will of the people should be the basis of authority for government; majorities also support the notion that shari'a should be the basis for government and that a group of Islamic scholars should be able to vet laws."

I have no chips stuck in the African bonanza. Thus the purpose of forecasting is not my concern. I am just savoring a most notable time in history, one that may not come for hundreds of years.

I must confess that it gives me hope for watan, I do feel more optimistic about our future after seeing the events in north Africa. I felt a similar excitement after visiting Turkey, that may be we can built a city like istambul in watan one day.

BTW, the day I wish to be taken seriously by religiously intoxicated, identity starved, immigrants; please shoot me. You have my full and complete blessing.

[ScimitarXEdge]

The US is notorious for funding protests. Would you agree that the US is actively attempting to create protests in Iran? Hell, they even launched a twitter page in Farsi to counter Persian influence. We have to realize the US policy makers think way ahead of time. They analyze these situations, they know what to do, and when to do it. I honestly think the US still has complete control on most Egyptian/Arab affairs. The US can't just let the largest Arab nation, the only nation that gets along with Israel, leave it's hands. Eygpt is the only Arab nation with a disciplined and modern military, and the US can't afford to see them fall in the hands of a group that has a anti-US voice.


I have heard that when the US provides these F16s, they are programmed to destruct at Americas will. So if Kayani decides to be naughty, they can make most of their American equipment dysfunctional. I guess this is Americas way of exerting influence?

BA,
there was a famous Saudi Mullah who said somethign along the lines of "The protests in Egypt are Haram".
I just find it amazing. It's funny how Islam is used by many as a tool to serve their purposes.


Also, I find the USA's influence on countries thousands of miles away to be astonishing. I think Egyptians in general have a pretty positive opinion of the USA.

Well let's stop and assess things comprehensively here; if someone that claimed to be a secular humanist goes around saying "Secularism is a mission to annihilate everyone who believes in religion".

Will you then say secularism is being used for an agenda. Imposters hijacking a popular name is common, but it has no bearing on the actual merit of the belief system itself. We can separate wheat from chaff to see what merit their claims have. Legit ones always stand clearer than illegitimate ones.

A misuse of the name of Islam, has no bearing on Islam. Everyone wants to ride the coattails of a meritable framework.

[Baygham]

the genuine Islam bro, not the obsessing about how long someone's beard is and whether every strand of a woman's hair is under her hijab type.

that islam is being killed by the wahabi's, some one told me it may be already dead if not for some western sanctuaries (ironic isn't it). Just wait your brother sangar will inform you in a few minutes of its demise.

I read that this alqeeda may become irrelevant after what happened in Egypt. Hope we get some sense in the paki army generals as well.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I have no chips stuck in the African bonanza. Thus the purpose of forecasting is not my concern. I am just savoring a most notable time in history, one that may not come for hundreds of years.

I must confess that it gives me hope for watan, I do feel more optimistic about our future after seeing the events in north Africa. I felt a similar excitement after visiting Turkey, that may be we can built a city like istambul in watan one day.

BTW, the day I wish to be taken seriously by religiously intoxicated, identity starved, immigrants; please shoot me. You have my full and complete blessing.

I don't see how the people you describe are "identity" starved they're retaining the identity that they inherited, if anything it would be people who try to "adapt" to another culture that reflects being identity starved as they're trying to fill up with someone else's culture what they have lost in theirs.

you fit that description.

BTW why would you want to build a city like Istanbul, do you mean old istanbul or the modernized parts which are really dirty and disgusting.

[ScimitarXEdge]

that islam is being killed by the wahabi's, some one told me it may be already dead if not for some western sanctuaries (ironic isn't it). Just wait your brother sangar will inform you in a few minutes of its demise.

I read that this alqeeda may become irrelevant after what happened in Egypt. Hope we get some sense in the paki army generals as well.

Not really, I think you forget what "western sanctuaries" did to promote Wahhabism and promulgate it as a rabid dog for it's own agenda.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

The US is notorious for funding protests. Would you agree that the US is actively attempting to create protests in Iran? Hell, they even launched a twitter page in Farsi to counter Persian influence. We have to realize the US policy makers think way ahead of time. They analyze these situations, they know what to do, and when to do it. I honestly think the US still has complete control on most Egyptian/Arab affairs. The US can't just let the largest Arab nation, the only nation that gets along with Israel, leave it's hands. Eygpt is the only Arab nation with a disciplined and modern military, and the US can't afford to see them fall in the hands of a group that has a anti-US voice.


I have heard that when the US provides these F16s, they are programmed to destruct at Americas will. So if Kayani decides to be naughty, they can make most of their American equipment dysfunctional. I guess this is Americas way of exerting influence?

BA,
there was a famous Saudi Mullah who said somethign along the lines of "The protests in Egypt are Haram".
I just find it amazing. It's funny how Islam is used by many as a tool to serve their purposes.


Also, I find the USA's influence on countries thousands of miles away to be astonishing. I think Egyptians in general have a pretty positive opinion of the USA.

I agree with some of what you are saying, but I think Justin Raimondo below teases out the Iranian situation from the Arab world situation quiet affectively in this article. Remember, the Washington Post had to renege on their commentary about voter fraud in Iran and state clearly that in all probability Ahmedinjad won the masses hands down:

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2010/022710.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...061401757.html

Nationalism, Democracy, and the Arab Awakening

Posted By Justin Raimondo On February 20, 2011 @ 11:00 pm In

The revolutionary wave sweeping through the Middle East promises to topple sclerotic Arab regimes throughout the region, but there is a marked difference between, say, Egypt and Iran – and the difference is the nationalist factor.

In Egypt, the people rose up against a US-supported dictatorship which had ridden on their backs for 30 years. It’s interesting to note that the regime, in the latter stages of the revolt, resorted to dark hints that the protesters were being run by mysterious “foreign elements.” And, indeed, there was a foreign element that played a key role – I would argue the key role – in Egyptian politics, and had been doing so for the past 30 years, albeit not on the side of the pro-democracy forces: namely, the US government. Washington gave over $60 billion in mostly military aid to the regime of Hosni Mubarak, enabling him to stay in power far longer than he would have otherwise managed.

Not only that, but this massive outpouring of dollars effectively handed control of the nation’s economic life to the military, which now controls as much as 30 percent of Egypt’s gross domestic product. Internal US government communications, revealed by the invaluable WikiLeaks, show diplomats complaining about the Egyptian military’s resistance to economic liberalization, but Washington failed to comprehend how US policy entrenched the military high command as a major player in the Egyptian economy.

Mubarak’s appeal to nationalist sympathies failed because he, and not the protesters, was seen as the agent of a foreign power: namely, the United States. While economic and internal political factors almost certainly sparked the upsurge, it was nationalism – in part energized by resentment of the dictator’s American patrons – that managed to sustain it and ultimately carry it forward to victory. Protesters carried Egyptian flags, and appealed directly to the army as the protector of the nation against Mubarak. In Bahrain, too, the protesters carried their national flag, and made an appeal to the military – this latter with decidedly deadly results. In any case, however, the nationalistic sentiment exuded by the pro-democracy forces is a defining feature of the most successful uprisings – to date, Egypt and Bahrain – while in Iran (and, to some extent, Libya) the situation is more complex.

What complicates the picture in the case of Iran, for example, is outside pressure on the regime by the US, which reinforces actual grassroots support for the ruling elite and retards the growth of the opposition. The American and Israeli-led international campaign to isolate Iran on the grounds that it has no right to obtain nuclear power is opposed by both the mullahs and the “Green” movement that is trying to overthrow the dictatorship. If the Greens took power tomorrow, Iran’s nuclear program, such as it is, would remain in place – as would the hostility of the West and the sanctions that are slowly strangling ordinary people in that country.

In Iran, the elections in which the opposition was allowed to compete did not give the Green movement a victory. While some may allege that these elections were far from fair, this evaluation is not clear-cut enough to dislodge the legitimacy of the regime: and, in any event, it is undeniable that the hard-liners enjoy some level of popular support, or at least enough to forestall a massive upsurge such as threw Mubarak out of office in 18 days.

The Iranian regime can credibly point to a systematic campaign to undermine the country on the part of the Western powers, chiefly the United States – including a terrorist campaign waged by the US-backed Jundallah organization, a radical Sunni insurgency in Iranian Baluchistan that has launched vicious attacks on civilian targets. This cements popular support for the mullah-ocracy, which is seen as the only alternative to foreign domination and chaos.

The nationalist factor – or, one might say, the anti-American factor – operates in a similar manner in Libya, where longtime dictator Moammar Gadhafi appeared in person at a pro-government rally in the capital city of Tripoli, which has been relatively calm and where the protest movement is apparently weakest. One cannot imagine Yemen’s “President” Ali Abdullah Saleh feeling confident enough to make an appearance in Sana’s main square, where he might well end up on the wrong end of a hangman’s noose.

Another US protectorate, the tiny East African nation of Djibouti, witnessed an amazing 20,000 protesters taking to the streets – a massive outpouring in a country with a population of under one million. Djibouti is the site of a major military base which is an important anchor of US operations in the region and beyond. In return, Washington has poured in aid and given the regime of “President” Ismail Guelleh political support, overlooking the Mubarak-like familial despotism that rules over this small but strategically important enclave. The President’s family has ruled the African city-state since independence from France in 1977.

In Syria, on the other hand, the Arab Awakening is less advanced: the Syrian Ba’athist regime of Bashar al-Assad has been in Washington’s sights since the Bush era, and here again the nationalist factor plays an important role. Of course, Bashar’s father, Hafez al-Assad, once decimated a city of some 60,000, slaughtering most of the inhabitants, when the Muslim Brotherhood launched a revolt, and the memory of this may deter potential rebels: but that kind of brutality is less of a restraining factor these days, as we have seen in Bahrain, Yemen, and Libya, where security forces are firing directly into crowds – and still the ranks of protesters continue to grow.

The US government poses as the international champion of democracy and liberty, but the objective real-world consequences of its foreign policy of global intervention effectively hold back progress in this direction. It is no accident that the revolutions in Iran, Libya, and Syria (where only a few hundred have so far turned out for Egypt-inspired protests) are meeting substantial resistance, while in the US protectorates – Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Bahrain, Jordan, Djibouti – the protests are more successful.

Unless the administration is willing to take advice from the more embittered neocons, Glenn Beck, and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who rail that Mubarak was “betrayed” by the West, this disparity points to the only rational response to the Awakening by the US: Washington must get out of the way. Amid calls from many liberals and some neocons to endorse the democratic movements, and the opposite advice from the Beckians, the US government must resist the temptation to meddle in any manner whatsoever – and this includes pumping in money and resources to handpicked “democratic” parties and organizations via USAID and the National Endowment for Democracy. Such efforts are bound to boomerang, just as our previous support to the reigning dictators did.

Our national interests were never served by supporting brutal kleptocrats like Mubarak, and his cousins across the region: nor are they being served by “democracy promotion,” either. The Founders foresaw that the American example would inspire efforts to achieve liberty beyond our shores, and one of them, John Quincy Adams, had this advice to give:
“Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.”

UPDATE: As events in Libya continue to race forward, I think my initial analysis is roughly accurate: while the Eastern provinces have rid themselves of Gadhafi, in Tripoli pro-government mobs are taking to the streets, and the dictator and his equally daffy son seem to be digging in for a protracted conflict. I see the son is taking his clues from Glenn Beck and David Horowitz, babbling about how the rebels are trying to restore the "Caliphate" or "Emirate." I didn’t know they got Fox News in Libya, but I guess being the son of a dictator affords one certain privileges.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

BA,
there was a famous Saudi Mullah who said somethign along the lines of "The protests in Egypt are Haram".
I just find it amazing. It's funny how Islam is used by many as a tool to serve their purposes.


Also, I find the USA's influence on countries thousands of miles away to be astonishing. I think Egyptians in general have a pretty positive opinion of the USA.

This part is also true. When you look at the breakdown of the data form that U of M poll, Muslims respect American accomplishment and also admire elements of their governance here at home. In fact, they appear to endorse element of liberalism from the West.

However, they resent and act on what they see is interventionalism and subversion of their right to govern per their own free will.

When you read the words of these Islamists you can easily differentiate their call to action from that of Ayatollah Khomeini. The latter called for a jihaad against western morals and failed miserably. The former has called for a defensive jihaad and has attracted backing and manpower to the effect of a worldwide insurgency.

Also, this issue of the Saudi Sheikhs are something that quiet clearly show the demaraction between the brand of Islam that the Saudi state propagates (and pays $$$ to propagate here in the USA as well)... versus what the insurgency backs.

Take for instance, Bin Ladin's rejection of Sheikh Bin Baaz. The latter clearly went against the edict of the Prophet Muhammad on his death bed that no non Muslim military force was to ever occupy the Saudi peninsula. Take also into account the purge that took place in the 1990s when Saudi scholars of repute attempted to break away from the regime. Al Awda and others were imprisoned and "reformed" which basically means tortured and threatened until they were silenced.

Basically, the Saudi state has its own clerics that are the mouthpieces of its policy. In general, their inability to actually stem the growing tide of the insurgency shows their lack of credibility that is growing.

e.g Bin Baaz was the Saudi mouth piece.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I have no chips stuck in the African bonanza. Thus the purpose of forecasting is not my concern. I am just savoring a most notable time in history, one that may not come for hundreds of years.

I must confess that it gives me hope for watan, I do feel more optimistic about our future after seeing the events in north Africa. I felt a similar excitement after visiting Turkey, that may be we can built a city like istambul in watan one day.

BTW, the day I wish to be taken seriously by religiously intoxicated, identity starved, immigrants; please shoot me. You have my full and complete blessing.

Translates to: I live in fantasy world built on my opinions as evidenced by the ludicrous writings on my blog. In the last sentence you do that splitting and projection thing again...

Evidence, logic, and historical precedent trump emotion every time.

[Baygham]

I don't see how the people you describe are "identity" starved they're retaining the identity that they inherited, if anything it would be people who try to "adapt" to another culture that reflects being identity starved as they're trying to fill up with someone else's culture what they have lost in theirs.

you fit that description.

BTW why would you want to build a city like Istanbul, do you mean old istanbul or the modernized parts which are really dirty and disgusting.

I spend 10 days in istambul. The whole city, new, old, the transport system were all beautiful. The preservation of all old cultures, the palaces with public access, the old bazar, the narrow streets, all of it.

Please dont tell me ataturk was a western stooge, that is an insult to our brothers and sisters in Turkey.

In any case this is becoming a useless waste of my time. So I apologize if I try not to fix your problems. Carry on, be happy, wish you luck. My offer of the madrassa in akhora khattak stand, dont waste time, it may not be there for too long.

[Baygham]

Translates to: I live in fantasy world built on my opinions as evidenced by the ludicrous writings on my blog. In the last sentence you do that splitting and projection thing again...

Evidence, logic, and historical precedent trump emotion every time.

gorra gorra kawa, khoola ba dhee ghwageegi,

if it was only that easy. Trumping emotion, acquiring logic, accepting evidence and seeing the nuances in history. Keep harping, may be you will get it one day.

it seems you have plenty of free time though, I guess the misses is away. In that case, I recommend a refresher course in how ones brain works, it will give you an insight you wont regret, could be painful, but you wont regret it. Start with charlie rose brain series, its videos and even in a manic phase one can go through it without undo distractions.

I am sorry if I pulled some uncomfortable strings, as our urdu speaking brothers say, 'every one is naked in a bathhouse'. its nothing to be ashamed of. My time is up, too busy to keep rambling here all the time.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I spend 10 days in istambul. The whole city, new, old, the transport system were all beautiful. The preservation of all old cultures, the palaces with public access, the old bazar, the narrow streets, all of it.

Please dont tell me ataturk was a western stooge, that is an insult to our brothers and sisters in Turkey.

In any case this is becoming a useless waste of my time. So I apologize if I try not to fix your problems. Carry on, be happy, wish you luck. My offer of the madrassa in akhora khattak stand, dont waste time, it may not be there for too long.

he was a western stooge, and if people feel insulted by that it's their own inability to face the truth that insults them and not the truth itself

none the less, it had nothing to do with my response

The old parts of Istanbul are gorgeous; the newer parts are like a stinky vomit smelling sidewalk in Philadelphia. You must have a concrete fetish, Nature is much more astonishing. You can try to shift the focus onto Akora Khattak all you want; but you know in your heart of hearts, the deeper issues of what's ailing our world are in the bureaucratic walls of the "nation" you are so willing to chaploosi for.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I spend 10 days in istambul. The whole city, new, old, the transport system were all beautiful. The preservation of all old cultures, the palaces with public access, the old bazar, the narrow streets, all of it.

Please dont tell me ataturk was a western stooge, that is an insult to our brothers and sisters in Turkey.

In any case this is becoming a useless waste of my time. So I apologize if I try not to fix your problems. Carry on, be happy, wish you luck. My offer of the madrassa in akhora khattak stand, dont waste time, it may not be there for too long.

See with your mind in addition to opening those eyes of yours and the world will be born anew Baygham. Here is what Mullah Buchanon has to say regarding Turkey. I call him Mullah, because it is absurd to me how each and every person from within our race who calls you to this common sensical and evidence based reality is labeled as a pawn of the Saudi regime, etc. etc. Please, for your own sake and reality's sake, stop splitting and deal with the world as it is... not as you want it to be:

Pat Buchanon is a right wing Republican compadre... and here is a snippet from this article in the acclaimed American Conservative Magazine:

http://www.amconmag.com/blog/2011/02...thout-america/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Perhaps the nation to study is Turkey, which has already gone through a democratic and dramatic transformation.

In 2000, Turkey was a reliable U.S. ally, a friend to Israel, an aspiring candidate for membership in the EU. Since then, Turkey has set a different course, welcomed by her people, that has measurably enhanced her prestige.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s regime is far more Islamic than any Turkish government since the caliphate. He and his Justice and Development Party have effected constitutional reforms to curb the power of the judiciary and military, guardians of the secular state established by Kemal Ataturk in 1923. Scores of generals have been indicted for treason.

Turkey refused President George W. Bush permission to use its territory to invade Iraq. Denied a fast track to membership in the EU, Turkey now looks to the south and east. Relations with Syria have been repaired. Iran’s Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has been welcomed in Istanbul.
To the rage of Hillary Clinton, the Turks and Brazil cut a deal with Iran to transfer half the low-enriched uranium at Natanz out of the country. This was seen as undercutting U.S. policy. When the U.N. imposed the latest sanctions on Iran, Turkey voted no.

"The Turks are out of their lane," said a U.S. diplomat.

Indeed they are. And as Turkey moves out of America’s orbit, she is moving back into a Muslim world, much of which she ruled for centuries. A sure sign is the bristling hostility to Israel, with which Turkey has had close political and military ties.

At Davos in 2009, in a debate with Shimon Peres about the Gaza war, Erdogan shouted at Israel’s president, "You know well how to kill," stormed out and flew home to a hero’s welcome.

Eight of the nine dissidents shot by Israeli commandos in the Gaza Freedom Flotilla trying to run the blockade were Turks. Erdogan’s backing of the flotilla and condemnation of Israel for a "bloody massacre" made him and Turkey more admired in Gaza than are Iran and Ahmadinejad.

After that first week of demonstrations in Cairo, when Hosni Mubarak announced he would not run again for president, America dithered, but Erdogan declared that Mubarak should resign immediately.

"The (Egyptian) people expect a very different decision from Mubarak," Erdogan said. "The current administration does not inspire trust so far as the democratic change wanted by the population is concerned."
Erdogan abruptly canceled his February visit to Egypt.

What, then, are the crucial elements of the new Turkish policy?
First, a new deference and respect for Islam. Second, make Turkey the champion of the causes of the Arab and Muslim masses, foremost among which is the cause of the Palestinian people. Third, defy the United States and denounce Israel.

What the Turks are about has been called "neo-Ottomanism," a 21st century policy to reclaim the position they held for centuries.
As the British elbowed aside the Ottoman Turks and the Americans shouldered aside the British after Suez, now it is America that appears to be the receding power in the Middle East and Turkey the rising power."