Pashtuns and neoconservatism-interventionism

[BarakzaiAbdali]

you have very weird and non uniformed views. What you are saying makes no sense. On one hand you are saying leabe the rest of us alone and one the other hand you fail to realize we afghans are suffering. Do you not care about kandahar and pashtuns? I am sorry but i am not like you. I want to see people prosper. As an american i am aware that we have countries like pakistan and germany in our pocket but i also want to make sure my pashtuns are doing good. And i know that the only way to do good we must have secularism sir. Sir think about islamic law has not worked. Its outdated. Secularism has worked look at every advanced nation in the world. And sir you are wrong with your reference to adams. If washington would have been alive he would have told you to go liberate afghanistan from these islamic extremists.

Would you like to see their quotes? It appears that you are unread in history or at least deeply uninformed. My concern for Qandahar and Pashtuns has nothing to do with me wanting to milk American Tax dollars or make American soldiers die there. The two things can be mutually exclusive. You have not answered the question of why any marine from Alabama has to die for some fools errand in Afghanistan, to prop up a corrupt government, hated by its people, and to enforce an ideology on a people.

Quotes from Washington's farewell address:

Trade and conduct commerce, but have little political connection:
"The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities."

Do not take on another nation's burdens:
"”So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld. And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation."

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Here is John Quincy Adams for you Shlombay. Sorry but you have NO evidence that the founding fathers would ever send a single soldier to Afghanistan.:


And now, friends and countrymen, if the wise and learned philosophers of the elder world, the first observers of nutation and aberration, the discoverers of maddening ether and invisible planets, the inventors of Congreve rockets and Shrapnel shells, should find their hearts disposed to enquire what has America done for the benefit of mankind?
Let our answer be this: America, with the same voice which spoke herself into existence as a nation, proclaimed to mankind the inextinguishable rights of human nature, and the only lawful foundations of government. America, in the assembly of nations, since her admission among them, has invariably, though often fruitlessly, held forth to them the hand of honest friendship, of equal freedom, of generous reciprocity.
She has uniformly spoken among them, though often to heedless and often to disdainful ears, the language of equal liberty, of equal justice, and of equal rights.
She has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations while asserting and maintaining her own.
She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart.
She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama the European world, will be contests of inveterate power, and emerging right.
Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be.
But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy.
She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all.
She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.
She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example.
She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom.
The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force....
She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit....
[America's] glory is not dominion, but liberty. Her march is the march of the mind. She has a spear and a shield: but the motto upon her shield is, Freedom, Independence, Peace. This has been her Declaration: this has been, as far as her necessary intercourse with the rest of mankind would permit, her practice

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Here is Tom Jefferson:

"peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none."

[Shlombay]

Would you like to see their quotes? It appears that you are unread in history or at least deeply uninformed. My concern for Qandahar and Pashtuns has nothing to do with me wanting to milk American Tax dollars or make American soldiers die there. The two things can be mutually exclusive. You have not answered the question of why any marine from Alabama has to die for some fools errand in Afghanistan, to prop up a corrupt government, hated by its people, and to enforce an ideology on a people.

Quotes from Washington's farewell address:

Trade and conduct commerce, but have little political connection:
"The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities."

Do not take on another nation's burdens:
"”So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld. And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation."

i think you are very confused. AMERICANS LOVE FREEDOM. THAT SOLDIER FROM ALABAMA WANTS TO FREE AFGHANISTAN FROM AL QAEDA TERRORISTS. America also has interests in Afghanistan DUH. Afghanistan has a corrupt government because our educated elite and people like YOU refuse to cooperate. YOU ARE OUR FUTURE AND HERE YOU ARE TURNING YOUR BACK ON AFGHANISTAN.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

i think you are very confused. AMERICANS LOVE FREEDOM. THAT SOLDIER FROM ALABAMA WANTS TO FREE AFGHANISTAN FROM AL QAEDA TERRORISTS. America also has interests in Afghanistan DUH. Afghanistan has a corrupt government because our educated elite and people like YOU refuse to cooperate. YOU ARE OUR FUTURE AND HERE YOU ARE TURNING YOUR BACK ON AFGHANISTAN.

No Sir, As I said, if you want to form the Shlombay and Abdali Medical Device Company and set up shop in Qandahar I am all for it. However, if you want to committ treason and send our tax dollars and American soldiers there to enforce an ideology on people, in the words of John Lennon: "You can count me out." I do not understand what is so hard for you to accept in this?

If the Afghans there want Omar Hotak back, that is their perogative. If they want Karzai Bibi to stay that is their perogative. I refuse to force my will on them.

[Shlombay]

No Sir, As I said, if you want to form the Shlombay and Abdali Medical Device Company and set up shop in Qandahar I am all for it. However, if you want to committ treason and send our tax dollars and American soldiers there to enforce an ideology on people, in the words of John Lennon: "You can count me out." I do not understand what is so hard for you to accept in this?

If the Afghans there want Omar Hotak back, that is their perogative. If they want Karzai Bibi to stay that is their perogative. I refuse to force my will on them.

what part in I do not want to enforce anything did you not understand in the first time when I said it? WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT IT IS YOUR DUTY TO AT LEAST ENLIGHTEN THEM ABOUT SECULARISM NOT FORCE THEM.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Shlombay look closely at Washington's last post. He is warning you that by taking on the burden of nation building, you end up finding reasons to stay there and to waste your own national resources and treasure.

Look closely at what Quincy Adams says when he warns that we should wish all nations well, but that we should never physically involve ourselves in their struggles, otherwise we get involved in all their petty issues. We also then risk doing what we have, which is building 900 bases worldwide and becoming the dictatoress of the world in his words.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

what part in I do not want to enforce anything did you not understand in the first time when I said it? WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT IT IS YOUR DUTY TO AT LEAST ENLIGHTEN THEM ABOUT SECULARISM NOT FORCE THEM.

So then what is our difference? If you agree with me that our American military has no role there and our tax dollars should not go there, then we can go build our hospitals together... if you do not then I cannot do business with you and will just have to stick with making Admin Khan a board member and kakargirl a board member... but I cannot endorse interventionalism... it is against my creed.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Bottom line Shomblay:
To love America: Make her strong again and help her turn her attention back inwards. Extract the republic out of the neoconservative empire. Read up on Max Boot, one of the neocons that Osho endorses above. He actually prefers that we go against our principles and create the imperium as he called it... which is another word for empire.

To love Afghanistan: Cut her loose. She is a wild stallion. She is Alexander's bucephalus. She cannot be subdued or forced without destroying her. She will find her own way. Invest as a private citizen and teach them whatever you will, but not with Colonol Steve standing behind you with a pistol.

[Shlombay]

So then what is our difference? If you agree with me that our American military has no role there and our tax dollars should not go there, then we can go build our hospitals together... if you do not then I cannot do business with you and will just have to stick with making Admin Khan a board member and kakargirl a board member... but I cannot endorse interventionalism... it is against my creed.

why are you being so naive BarakzaiAbdali? When you have ALQAEDA trying to attack our nation do you expect us to be quiet? when you have TALIBAN and it's PUNJABI allies making your cousins in Kandahar not go to school do you expect us Americans to be quiet? NO sir WE WANT AFGHANISTAN TO HAVE RIGHTS.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

why are you being so naive BarakzaiAbdali? When you have ALQAEDA trying to attack our nation do you expect us to be quiet? when you have TALIBAN and it's PUNJABI allies making your cousins in Kandahar not go to school do you expect us Americans to be quiet? NO sir WE WANT AFGHANISTAN TO HAVE RIGHTS.

Read Michael Scheuer's book, Imperial Hubris. Read Al Qaeda's leaders own words... they are not attacking us because of Britney Spears Shlombay or because they want your scholarships or my medical degree. Their words consistently show they are attacking us for intervention in their affairs. We prop up the saudi tyranny, we gave all that tear gas and weaponry to Egypt's Mubarak, etc. We earned the hatred of those people through rancid interventionalism.

Also, if you want to deal with AQ and Taliban, then do it right. There is absolutely no credibility to a military war of attrition that gaurantees we are locked into an anchor baby like Afghanistan draining our resources.

This was exactly Mr. Bin Ladin's aim. He stated that his goal was to get us into Afghanistan for the long haul. He was even more ecstatic about Iraq, the unexpected gift to his cause.

So you are actually playing right into their hands and guaranteeing that a student that oculd have benefited from an Perkins grant or something Columbia will not do so because that money is instead going to bombs that will drop on Afghanistan. That my friend, is the greatest tragedy... we are marching right along to AQ's tune.

[graveyardofempires]

our people are uneducated and it is our job to show them the tolerance secularism provides. you yourself live in a secular country and you enjoy the benefits why do you not want afghans to get same benefits? barakzaiabdali many pf members are cowards and they refuse to meet up with me to have a talk but i invite you to come meet me in Columbia University so I can introduce you to some of the political scholars here and to some of my professors they can make u understand the benefits of a secular society and how it is working. the political science department people are friendly and i can arrange a meeting for you. it will be fun. i do take advantage of our resources and I debate frequently with my professors but i have realized secularism is what we afghans need look at Turkey they rapidly advancing. I am a proud American who loves his secular nation . i want my qandahr to also be secular and tolerant

please stop talking about what Afghans should want
keep your filthy desires to yourself.

your seculerists have murdered enough Afghans/muslims especially from Kandahar.
if this is what columbia university makes you than its clear columbia university a brainwashing institution.

[graveyardofempires]

you have very weird and non uniformed views. What you are saying makes no sense. On one hand you are saying leabe the rest of us alone and one the other hand you fail to realize we afghans are suffering. Do you not care about kandahar and pashtuns? I am sorry but i am not like you. I want to see people prosper. As an american i am aware that we have countries like pakistan and germany in our pocket but i also want to make sure my pashtuns are doing good. And i know that the only way to do good we must have secularism sir. Sir think about islamic law has not worked. Its outdated. Secularism has worked look at every advanced nation in the world. And sir you are wrong with your reference to adams. If washington would have been alive he would have told you to go liberate afghanistan from these islamic extremists.

having pashutn in america's pocket?
you will have to take that dream with you to the grave.

[Baygham]

I applaud your honesty in your open endorsement of Neoconservatism. Now at least, others can see directly where you derive your ideologies without the veneer overcovering where you stand. I am so very glad that I forced this admission. Well Baygham Khan, there you have it, one of the three musketeers openly admits his affiliations.

Well I am not a neoconservative, for I have too many liberal traits, but I am not stuck in liberal dogma either. I believe in making the best of any situation. With USA pumping the Taliban, I was happy with a hundred year struggle for survival. With USA decimating the Taliban, I am happy for the opportunity. In both situation the goal and the wish remains the same – to have similar opportunities for life and security for fellow pashtoons what others have in developed world. I see tremendous opportunity both financially and spiritually in such an outcome, a win win for all in pashtoon land.

Bottom line Osho, just as Osho has openly stated his ideologies, I too will state mine:

Practically, I could care less about Afghanistan. I could care less about Bosnia. Iraq can sink into a sandpit. Saudi can sink into the sea. Somalia is a rat hole not worth traveling to, much less being concerned about. Europe... well Europe is about as useful as it ever was... which is not useful at all. As an American, I have no duty to worry about a starving child in Bolivia, except in the capacity of a private citizen. Haitian earthquake? Fine, activate the churches and the mosques and the synogogues and send some money there if you want... but a tax dollar being sent there? Heck No. Nation states earn the right to survive and subsist.

I was very disappointed to read that.
As my brother says, our parents and grandparents did not make all those sacrifices so we can buy a Porsche in USA and become middle class sub-urbanites. Those sacrifices were a last gasping effort to do something, to drag them and us out of abysmal darkness they saw and still see around them in watan. Nobody asked us for a similar sacrifice, but not to care at all. Wow, even I am speechless.

[parsiwaan]

Bottom line Osho, just as Osho has openly stated his ideologies, I too will state mine:

Practically, I could care less about Afghanistan. I could care less about Bosnia. Iraq can sink into a sandpit. Saudi can sink into the sea. Somalia is a rat hole not worth traveling to, much less being concerned about. Europe... well Europe is about as useful as it ever was... which is not useful at all. As an American, I have no duty to worry about a starving child in Bolivia, except in the capacity of a private citizen. Haitian earthquake? Fine, activate the churches and the mosques and the synogogues and send some money there if you want... but a tax dollar being sent there? Heck No. Nation states earn the right to survive and subsist.

as American? Hamee too khoo nawasi Lincoln kho nestee? Lol you remind me of this Paki Qadyani Raja on CNN..under banner of "us Americans" carrying Pukistan agenda. Thanks to US intervention in Afghanistan…People in Afghanistan have food to eat and don’t go through garbage. In non Pashtun areas commerce is booming and it’s relatively peaceful to go through those areas. People are studying in schools and Universities etc etc. Compare the majority now to the time of your Tali-bananas. The only reason Pashtuns civilians' suffering is the making of Pashtun male's inherent stupidity... specially in the last 20 years. You know those Arabs that you brought in your villages and then with them turned against your Afghans? Well they are the excuse for American today. So you have no one to blame but yourselves. You made others suffer then. God is making you suffer today.