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  • Congratulations Interventionalists and Secular Nationalists

    I avoid simply posting a thread that is a linked article others might have found by reading news websites. I think it clutters up a forum and likely weighs down the server. It also works against someone formulating their own thoughts and then amassing evidence to critically question their views or defend them. However, this is a rare instance I will do this in order to buttress a point. I think it is important to remember that the nationalist secular agenda is based on 3 sacred principles:

    1. Pakistan must fail
    2. Pakistan must be disassembled
    3. Pakistan must be punished.
    4. The fourth unwritten principles is that 1-3 must be done at all costs.

    No, I jest above, but seriously, the 3 principles really appear to be

    1. Pakistan’s influence must be neutralized.
    2. Religiosity must be curbed as it leads to excesses in the name of religion and holds societal productivity and advancement back. It also imposes Arabism onto a Persian derived people.
    3. Cultural, Societal, and Economic independence are paramount.

    From these 3 principles, the ANP and Afghan nationalists forge their way forward (or backward depending on how you look at it). One can see this strategy, based on these core principles, manifest themselves in the suggestions from folks like Osho, Toramana, Eusufxai, Drona, and others. Their ideologies do deserve some attention and critical analysis. Necessary war games ought to be done, as the Pentagon does, to determine possible outcome and scenarios that derive from their suggestions. We see the example of the full execution of one of their strategies and the impending disaster below.

    The strategy can easily be summarized (others can correct me if I am wrong, as I am learning here as well):

    1. Remove proxy support (this includes Arabian Islamist and the Punjabie nexus primarily).
    2. In order to promote 1, shout to the hills about how evil and bad the Taliban were and wring your hands about the outcomes on the ground during the decade of Taliban rule. Do this as if the regime was operating in a vacuum though.
    3. The enemy of my enemy is my friend: This includes warming up to yet other proxies like India, Iran, Russia, and possibly Israel. Attempt to play a dangerous chess game of ingratiating and inviting these forces to operate from within so as to neutralize the parties listed in 1. The running assumption is that these groups will then up and leave or that we will be able to accomplish this.
    4. Justify American presence and bases as a further building block to 3.
    5. Justify 1 through 5 in the language of humanism and liberal interventionalism (American money can be used to build schools, educated women, and to stave off the evil alliances of 1).
    6. Pashtuns shall be the majority governmental representatives in Afghanistan and the Khybar Pashtunkhwa area.

    One can see a similar set of agendas that once raged across the Arab world in the form of Pan Arabism or aptly, Arab nationalism. One of these was pushed by the secular baathist regime of Saddam Hussein. Saddam’s goals were generally in line with that of Arab nationalism. Hans Blix once surmised that Saddam saw himself as a King of Mesopotamia, sent to renew the will of his people. Qaddafi, Mubarak, the latter’s predecessor De Gamal, all play(ed) the same card. Click on the evening news to see the debilitating outcome of Arab nationalism in the Kuwait-Iraq conflict. Despite being a historical province of greater Iraq, Kuwaitis saw themselves as an elite group independent of Iraqi Arab hegemony. Saddam, saw the takhth overturned on him in a way only fit for being written up in a Shakespeare play. In the end, such examples of misbegotten ideals rely on the assumption that a people with completely different morals, cultural values, and religious ideologies will work for your benefit and then continue to do so once all is said and done and the common threat vanishes. So now, the Sunni Arabs that were all too willing to trust their fate to “ahle kitaab” or the western powers and see themselves at the long end of a series of losing battles. They, initially, were more than pleased to have the edict of Sheikh Bin Baz allowing a foreign power to occupy the Arabian peninsula. The chicks have come home to roost.

    In that same Iraq, the Michiavellian Moqtada Al Sadr has played a brilliant hand in understanding the nature of human beings (he recognizes that we are as beholden to our biology as bacteria are and that we compete for resources against “the other”) and allowed the Americans to severely damage the sunni power hold. This is brilliant strategy on his part because once America departs, there will be fewer Sunni he has to kill. Moreover, he supplements this with the understanding that the Americans will not leave and that they will be all too happy to turn their guns on him next. Therefore, he will utilize his Iran contacts to ensure that the impending Civil War will make the room too hot for America to stay in.

    Until now, the nationalists had a skewed but practical upper hand by being able to refer to the Taliban regime in simplistic terms, as the blight on the history of Afghanistan and the Pashtun people. Such a simple slight of hand ignores the complex history we have discussed before.

    However, we appear to now be able to respond in kind regarding how foolishly their steps 1-5 have created an alternate, but predictable reality. The following article, written by a former Indian Diplomatic Officer, shows that he nationalists have gotten what they wanted. Yet, goal 6, their golden goal is now farther away than ever, despite the whinings of Parsiwaan and others about how pashtun centric the Afghan government is. Note this key quote from the article:

    “Close to half of the population consists of ethnic Pashtuns and yet 75% of parliamentary seats have been "won" by non-Pashtuns. The Hazaras constitute 10% of the population, but they "won" 20% of the seats, including in Pashtun-dominated regions.”

    As you will see when you read this article, Mr. Karzai appears to now be in a dangerous and relatively stupid bind after having executed steps 1 through 5 of the nationalist agenda. I will highlight the important parts of the article that ought to stand out to any discerning mind. However, I would hope that the nationalists have a reasonable answer for where they are taking us in this long and down sloping march to being losers in the short and long term.

    This process was initiated by Bacha Khan when he bought Nehru to the FATA territories. The tribal Ahmadzai Wazirs treated Nehru like a guest per their codes of honor but lambasted Bacha Khan for daring to bring Nehru to their doorstep. Contrast this with the approach of the Faqir of Ipi who desired no help except from his own people. Perhaps, once again, it will have to be the fiercely independent tribes of FATA that sacrifice their sons, blood, and liberty in order to reverse the damage that his inheritors, Toramana, Osho, and others are guaranteeing per below:

    Examine closely how these nationalists are bringing us to the brink of disaster per the second part of this brilliant article. They, in emulation of Saddam’s folly, desire to cozy up to India and the other players mentioned above, screeching and stammering, “but India is our friend… it builds things… it loves us…. its our enemy’s enemy!” So too, shall they get us hung like Saddam.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    US wants to clip Karzai's wings (from Asia Times)
    By M K Bhadrakumar

    The United States' proxy war against Afghan President Hamid Karzai has taken a vicious turn, undermining the tenuous political equations in the country. Washington is displeased with Karzai's moves to accelerate reconciliation with the Taliban, while his pitch for a regional initiative and his agenda of a multi-vector foreign policy challenge US regional strategies.

    The US is caricaturing Karzai as a tin-pot dictator, arguing that he is "anti-democratic" since he decided to postpone by a month the convening of a new parliament. The election commission cleared the election results and Karzai's reluctance to accept the results casts him in poor light.

    However, Karzai has no choice but to order a special tribunal toreview election results. Close to half of the population consists of ethnic Pashtuns and yet 75% of parliamentary seats have been "won" by non-Pashtuns. The Hazaras constitute 10% of the population, but they "won" 20% of the seats, including in Pashtun-dominated regions.

    Something has gone very seriously wrong. Conceivably, the election commission did come under extraneous influence, as alleged by the attorney general. A parliament on the basis of the available results lacks political legitimacy, as Pashtuns will feel disenfranchized. Karzai rightly apprehends that Pashtun alienation, which is at the root of the insurgency, would further deepen and that can only augment Taliban's support base.

    Enter the Americans. Washington waded into these ethnic politics by encouraging non-Pashtun leaders to challenge Karzai's decision to have the election results reviewed by a special tribunal. The American ambassador in Kabul, Karl Eikenberry, and his Western colleagues threatened to attend a gathering of the elected parliamentarians and recognize it as the "real" parliament. This extraordinary "trade unionism" by Western diplomats can only be seen as an orchestrated move predicated on the calculation that Karzai is damned either way. If he convenes a parliament at this juncture, the US proxies who command a majority will incrementally weaken him and can even impeach him at some suitable moment.

    This extraordinary "trade unionism" by Western diplomats can only be seen as an orchestrated move predicated on the calculation that Karzai is damned either way. If he convenes a parliament at this juncture, the US proxies who command a majority will incrementally weaken him and can even impeach him at some suitable moment.

    But if Karzai insists on greater Pashtun representation, it becomes a point of friction with the non-Pashtun groups, and the delicate web of pan-Afghan alliances that he tenaciously wove while consolidating political power over the past two to three years will unravel.

    Plainly put, the US is using the ethnic card to "entrap" Karzai and bring the Afghan leader to his knees. The US is counting on the opposition candidate in the 2009 presidential election, Abdullah Abdullah, and the speaker of the outgoing parliament, Younus Qanooni, to spearhead the opposition to Karzai. The Washington establishment has also co-opted former Afghan intelligence chief Amrullah Saleh, who was sacked by Karzai last year.

    Abdullah, Qanooni and Saleh belong to the Panjshiri clan and the line-up has dangerous overtones of a (Tajik) revolt against (Pashtun) Karzai. The US is also instigating sections of Hazaras whose political influence is at its historical zenith today.

    Why such venom?
    Besides weakening Karzai, the US hopes to deal a body blow to the Afghan leader's initiative to kick start an intra-Afghan dialogue. Karzai is banking on a pan-Afghan alliance to support his audacious plan to reconcile the Taliban, and the US is using the ethnic card to unravel Karzai's alliance system.

    Why such venom toward America's own one-time prot้g้? Washington finds Karzai increasingly acting as an Afghan nationalist rather than as a US surrogate. What is at issue is how to secure a long-term US military presence in Afghanistan. Washington is negotiating a new Status of Forces Agreement with Kabul but Karzai is resisting the US plan to keep permanent military bases. US Vice President Joe Biden's visit to Kabul last month failed to clear the deadlock.

    Meanwhile, Karzai is making sustained efforts to develop ties with Iran and Russia, including military cooperation, so as to reduce his dependence on the US by the 2014 timeline. Moscow has proposed a key role for Kabul in the Shanghai Cooperation Organization.

    Karzai also recently deputed former Northern Alliance stalwarts Burhanuddin Rabbani (who heads the Afghan High Council for Peace in charge of reconciling with the Taliban) and Mohammad Fahim (the first vice president) to Tehran to seek Iranian support for his policies.

    Most importantly, the climate of Afghan-Pakistan relations has dramatically improved and the US feels "excluded" even as Kabul and Islamabad show signs of kick-starting an intra-Afghan dialogue. The recent visit to Islamabad by Rabbani underscored a new flexibility on the part of Pakistan.

    Army chief General Ashfaq Kiani received Rabbani. Biden visited Islamabad within days of Rabbani's talks with the Pakistani leadership but he drew a blank. Evidently, Islamabad and Kabul increasingly find themselves sharing a lot of common ground. Neither one favors US General David Petraeus' military strategy and both are keen to begin talks with the Taliban.

    Within a week of Biden's talks in Islamabad, Pakistani Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir flew to Kabul and held more consultations, which included calls on Karzai and Rabbani. Afghan Foreign Minister Zalmay Rassoul is now scheduled to visit Islamabad on Tuesday for a follow-up.

    Kabul and Islamabad are getting along better than at any time in the past decade and they don't seem to need the crutch of US mediation. By the time the US-Pakistan-Afghan trilateral forum of foreign ministers convenes in Washington on February 21, there could be a strange reversal of roles with Pakistan and Afghanistan coordinating their stance vis-a-vis the US.

    Clearly, the specter of a peace initiative on the Afghan problem at a regional level has begun haunting Washington for the first time. Biden openly flirted with the idea of a long-term American military presence in Afghanistan. Middle-level US officials have shifted gear to reinforce Biden's thought process. A recent speech entitled "The Obama Administration's Priorities in South and Central Asia" by Assistant Secretary of State Robert Blake at the James A Baker III Institute for Public Policy falls into this category.

    Red rag, intransigent bull
    Blake underscored that Washington intends to expand its engagement with Central Asia, "this critical region", which is situated at a "critical crossroads, bordering Afghanistan, China, Russia and Iran".

    What emerges from Blake's speech is that Washington and Delhi may have drawn closer on Afghanistan. Arguably, this was bound to happen. India is perhaps the only regional power that still seeks a military solution in Afghanistan. India quietly favors a long-term US military presence in Afghanistan. The US is edging toward the one-dimensional Indian view of Pakistan as the "epicenter" of global terrorism.

    The US views India as a red rag to taunt the intransigent Pakistani bull and India may not mind it. Blake made a stunning claim that India is the key US partner in Afghanistan and Central Asia:
    These projects with India in Afghanistan mark a small but important part of a significant new global development - the emergence of a global strategic partnership between India and the US ... India's democracy, diversity and knowledge-based society make it special, a model of a tolerant pluralistic society in the region, and one that now actively seeks to work with the US and others to help solve problems on a global level ... The strength of India's economy makes it the powerhouse of South and Central Asia's growth.
    He said one of the three "primary objectives" for the US in the "dynamic regional context" of South and Central Asia would be to "build a strategic partnership with India". This may seem like hyperbole, but it makes for geo-strategy.

    The Americans are feeling rather lonely in the Hindu Kush and India too faces isolation, as it stands excluded, on Pakistan's insistence, from the regional forums working on the Afghan problem. Neither Washington nor Delhi feels comfortable with the Kabul-Islamabad bonhomie. Both the US and India view the Afghan endgame through the prism of their rivalry with China.

    Then, there are the opaque operational factors. India wields influence with the "Panjshiri boys" who happen to be the current US proxies. Saleh figures as a key advisor to the security establishment in Washington, while Abdullah and Qanooni act as front men in Kabul. All three share a near-pathological aversion to Karzai and are viscerally opposed to any form of accommodation with Taliban. Pakistan brands Saleh as an "Indian agent". If the American ploy is to annoy the Pakistani military (and Karzai), there couldn't be a better choice than Saleh.

    Any US-India axis in Afghanistan can only be tactical, but it will nonetheless be seen as high provocation by Pakistan and Iran (possibly, also by Russia and China). Pakistan will feel more justified than ever to have placed such irrevocable faith in the Taliban as its "strategic asset".

    The US will eventually realize that it is skating on thin ice. There are half-a-dozen very good reasons why Pakistan remains and will continue to remain central to any durable Afghan settlement. Karzai will prove to be as tough as a nail. Thus, in many ways, the US proxy war in Kabul promises to be a defining moment.

    Ambassador M K Bhadrakumar was a career diplomat in the Indian Foreign Service. His assignments included the Soviet Union, South Korea, Sri Lanka, Germany, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Kuwait and Turkey.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Note that the likely responses will be similar to their prior ones. The aforementioned nationalists will scream bloody murder despite the fact that Mr. Karzai executed their steps 1 through 5 and now finds himself and the Pashtuns in what was an avoidable situation. They shall accuse me of supporting Pakistan (their typical canard), they shall then accuse me of anti Americanism and terrorism (their other reliable twin brother canard), but they will be hard-pressed to answer Dr. Bhadrakumar’s quandaries. All the while, they basically drafted, signed, sealed, and delivered the death warrant on their ever desired Pashtun state.
    Last edited by BarakzaiAbdali; 01-25-2011, 04:42 PM.
    "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

  • #2
    Link for the above article:
    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/MA25Df02.html

    Where shall we go from here? Let me refer you to what is coming next as we cut deals per some of these foolish suggestions that "the enemy of our enemy is our friend.":

    Recall India's support for the Mukhtee Bahini in Bengladesh. Instead of doing what they ought to have, and freed themselves from Pakistan's shackles in a manner befitting a nation in birth pangs, the Bengali leadership, like Saddam made a similar deal with the devil. Their gains?: Massacres of their intellectuals by Pakistans who deneid them a rightful leadership role in the face of an election lost by Zul Fikaar Ali Bhutto and now humiliation by their once touted ally:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...to-kill-policy

    Do good fences make good neighbours? Not along the India-Bangladesh border. Here, India has almost finished building a 2,000km fence. Where once people on both sides were part of a greater Bengal, now India has put up a "keep out" sign to stop illegal immigration, smuggling and infiltration by anti-government militants.
    This might seem unexceptional in a world increasingly hostile to migration. But to police the border, India's Border Security Force (BSF), has carried out a shoot-to-kill policy – even on unarmed local villagers. The toll has been huge. Over the past 10 years Indian security forces have killed almost 1,000 people, mostly Bangladeshis, turning the border area into a south Asian killing fields. No one has been prosecuted for any of these killings, in spite of evidence in many cases that makes it clear the killings were in cold blood against unarmed and defenceless local residents.
    Shockingly, some Indian officials endorse shooting people who attempt to cross the border illegally, even if they are unarmed. Almost as shocking is the lack of interest in these killings by foreign governments who claim to be concerned with human rights. A single killing by US law enforcement along the Mexican border makes headlines. The killing of large numbers of villagers by Indian forces has been almost entirely ignored.
    The violence is routine and arbitrary. Alauddin Biswas described to Human Rights Watch the killing of his 24-year-old nephew, who was suspected of cattle rustling, by Indian border guards in March 2010. "The BSF had shot him while he was lying on his back. They shot him in the forehead. If he was running away, he would have been shot in the back. They just killed him." The BSF claimed self-defence, but no weapons were recovered.
    Nazrul Islam, a Bangladeshi, was luckier. "At around 3am we decided to cross the Indian border," he said. He was headed to India to smuggle cows back to Bangladesh. "As soon as the BSF saw us, they started firing without warning." Islam was shot in his arm, but survived.
    Some of the victims have been children. One father recounted how his sons were beaten by BSF officers. "The BSF personnel surrounded the boys and without giving any reason started beating them with rifle butts, kicking and slapping them. There were nine soldiers, and they beat my sons mercilessly. Even as the boys fell down, the BSF men continued to kick them ruthlessly on their chest and other sensitive organs."
    The border has long been crossed routinely by local people for trade and commerce. It is also crossed by relatives and friends separated by a line arbitrarily drawn by the British during partition in 1947. As with the Mexican border in the United States, the border has become an emotive issue in Indian politics, as millions of Bangladeshis now live in India illegally. Many are exploited as cheap labour.
    India has the right to impose border controls. But India does not have the right to use lethal force except where strictly necessary to protect life. Yet some Indian officials openly admit that unarmed civilians are being killed. The head of the BSF, Raman Srivastava, says that people should not feel sorry for the victims, claiming that since these individuals were illegally entering Indian territory, often at night, they were "not innocent" and therefore were a legitimate target.
    Though India is a state with functional courts, he apparently believes the BSF can act as judge, jury and executioner. This approach also ignores the many victims, such as a 13-year-old named Abdur Rakib, who broke no law and was killed simply because he was near the fence. Sadly, Bangladeshi border officials have also suggested that such killings are acceptable if the victim was engaged in smuggling.
    As the recent WikiLeaks report about endemic torture in Kashmir underscores, Indian soldiers and police routinely commit human rights violations without any consequences. Permission has to be granted by a senior Indian official for the police to even begin an investigation into a crime committed by a member of the security forces, such as the BSF. This rarely happens.
    The response of various government officials to allegations of a shoot-to-kill policy has been confusing: we do shoot illegal border crossers since they are lawbreakers; we don't shoot border crossers; we only shoot in self-defence; we never shoot to kill.
    But there is some reason for hope. Under pressure, senior Indian officials have expressed revulsion at the behaviour of the BSF and have promised to send new orders to end the shoot-to-kill policy. They have committed to use nonviolent means to apprehend illegal border crossers or smugglers where they pose no risk to life. The question is whether this will be translated into action on the ground. Similar promises of "zero tolerance" for abuses have been made in Kashmir and elsewhere but have not been fulfilled.
    As India's economy has grown and foreign investors have flocked in, its human rights record has largely flown under the radar in recent years. But India is a growing world power with increasing influence. It should understand that its behaviour will come under increasing scrutiny. Routinely shooting poor, unarmed villagers is not how the world's largest democracy should behave.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I hope that the response will veer away from the typical accusations that we see here. I expect not, as those that cannot utilize logical responses tend to resort to dismissive attitudes, non evidence based practices, and the usual propagandic accusations.
    Last edited by BarakzaiAbdali; 01-25-2011, 04:47 PM.
    "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

    Comment


    • #3
      Finally, let not all our misguidance be heaped at the door of nationalists or overeager hyper revisionistic reactionary Islamists.

      We ought to look at our own actions as Afghan-American citizens. The common refrain of the Afghan Swan Song is:

      "The Americans will build us new schools."

      I would love to know, why? What obligation does America have to do anything of the sort and why would we be fifth column citizens and misuse our nation's money do so?If you justify this with the concept of war reparations, that might be suitable, once the war is over and you are able to enforce such measures as an independent state in control of your own educational system.

      Why should we encourage our brethren to take on the mantle of a well-fare state, ever seeking and never producing?

      This once again is a subliminal canard to justify the presence of NATO troops and extend their stay. As I stated, war reparations, as per Germany to the Europeans, as per Iraq to Kuwait, are paid once a nation is free from invasion.

      With that in mind, we ought to be responsible American denizens and understand that not a single American dollar is worthy of being spent on a single Afghan school. Not a single American governmental dollar is worthy of being spent on a single resident of Darfur. Not a single American governmental dollar is worth sending to Haiti as long as our own unemployment rate is above 5% and we have a burgeoning trade deficit with China. Private endeavors by private citizens in a private capacity are perfectally fine and constitutional. The latter hardly ever leads to interventionalism being justified abroad.

      We ought not to lead the charge to rob Peter to pay Paul and buttress what Eisenhower called the military industrial complex that will lead to bloody interventionalism. Afghan Americans that are concerned for their brethren back in their parents' native country ought to serve their new country by demanding complete economic divestment from nation building endeavors. This in turn defunds the Blackwaters and the mercenaries alongside of redirecting American Tax dollars to the mainland US.
      Last edited by BarakzaiAbdali; 01-25-2011, 04:45 PM.
      "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

      Comment


      • #4
        One last addendum, I want to thank Amir Ghaznavi, who may disagree with a number of my conclusions (but remains ever so respectful and academic in his discourse), for raising the issue of Pashtun representation in the Afghan government. The NATO officials attempted to white wash his claim away and basically glossed over the recent election results. As Ghaznavi astutely pointed out, and as Dr. Bhadrakumar and Matthew Hoh reaffirm, the Pashtuns are far from represented in the new order of things.
        "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

        Comment


        • #5
          It is like the kettle calling the pot black...For almost a century, these were the Islamists like Barakzai and his ilk that worked alongside CIA and US to subvert popular movements amongst the oppressed, now he is bracketing secular nationalits with Interventionists...Bravo...

          Barakzai, who were hand and gloves with ISI and CIA during the entire Afghan Jehad/Fasad episode enjoying ISI hospitality and the privileges offered by the US including green cards...?

          Now that you have created this mess, you are laying the blame on nationalists haan?
          Last edited by Toramana; 01-25-2011, 11:36 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Toramana View Post
            It is like the kettle calling the pot black...For almost a century, these were the Islamists like Barakzai and his ilk that worked alongside CIA and US to subvert popular movements amongst the oppressed, now he is bracketing secular nationalits with Interventionists...Bravo...

            Barakzai, who were hand and gloves with ISI and CIA during the entire Afghan Jehad/Fasad episode enjoying ISI hospitality and the privileges offered by the US including green cards...?

            Now that you have created this mess, you are laying the blame on nationalists haan?
            You said it wrong: its the pot calling the kettle black.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_cal...e_kettle_black

            Hmmm, Babrak Karmal and Najib Gaw as popular movements? Once again, in your old age you are certainly beginning to see demons around you and these are the initiating symptoms of schizophrenia. Repelling an invader (e.g. arming the Vietcong to throw the US out) is far less on the scale of interventionalism then goading the juggernaut to your own detriment (not to mention to the detriment of our people and your goals for them), as you have done.

            I am glad you are here brother: congratulations on a well executed coup against our own people. How you shall wrangle out of simulataneously supporting US interventionalism that, per the article, is openly subverting pashtun representation with supporting the killing of Pashtun insurgents and freedom fighters will be a beautiful sight. It will be like watching a mouse trying to give birth to an elephant.
            Last edited by BarakzaiAbdali; 01-25-2011, 11:55 PM.
            "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

            Comment


            • #7
              Toramana

              U can be nationalist if you are Arab because Allah messenger said so .
              حب لوطن من لإيمان .
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Niazi View Post
                Toramana

                U can be nationalist if you are Arab because Allah messenger said so .
                حب لوطن من لإيمان .

                As salaamu alaykoum wa rahmatullah

                You have just told a lie against the messenger of Allah. Telling a lie on Allah and his messenger is an act of disbelief. Under Shariah law this can result to execution. Many have been executed for this crime. Among whom Jahm ibn Safwan.

                Please do not state lies and do not fabricate stuff and ascribe it to Allah and his messenger if you do not want to enter hell fire.

                Guard your imaan and don't even joke about these things.



                Loving your "watan" is not Nationalism. Nationalism as an ideology is this: http://www.pashtunforums.com/politic...ionalism-3997/
                [SIZE="4"][B][CENTER][URL="www.quranawsunnat.com"]www.quranawsunnat.com
                [/URL]
                [URL="www.youtube.com/Sangartube"]www.youtube.com/Sangartube
                [/URL][/SIZE]
                Mullah 4 Life! [/CENTER][/B]

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Niazi View Post
                  Toramana

                  U can be nationalist if you are Arab because Allah messenger said so .
                  حب لوطن من لإيمان .
                  The issue I detail has nothing to do with loving one's people, loving one's land, communism, or anything of the sort. The point seems to have eluded you. It is the general strategies that ANP/Afghan Mellat relies on that are failed policies. They can continue to love their land and people, but merely ought to reconsider their approaches per my other article on Nationalism and Interventionalism gone arwy.
                  "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Niazi View Post
                    Toramana

                    U can be nationalist if you are Arab because Allah messenger said so .
                    حب لوطن من لإيمان .
                    The other issue is their platform rides on the concept of pashto and being all pro Pashtun. With that in mind, I wanted to remind them of the character of the quintessential archetype of the Pashtun identity. I will need to confirm your attribution to the Prophet, but Ahmad Shah would even have fulfilled that requisite. After all, he wrote the famous "Love of a Nation." He however did not espouse or endorse the enforced secular socialist agenda that the ANP rides on today under Achekzai or that Afghan Mellat rides on under Ahady.
                    "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by شمله ور خراساني View Post
                      As salaamu alaykoum wa rahmatullah

                      You have just told a lie against the messenger of Allah. Telling a lie on Allah and his messenger is an act of disbelief. Under Shariah law this can result to execution. Many have been executed for this crime. Among whom Jahm ibn Safwan.

                      Please do not state lies and do not fabricate stuff and ascribe it to Allah and his messenger if you do not want to enter hell fire.

                      Guard your imaan and don't even joke about these things.



                      Loving your "watan" is not Nationalism. Nationalism as an ideology is this: http://www.pashtunforums.com/politic...ionalism-3997/
                      So the Hadith hubul watani is fake then,

                      So much BS coming from a person who gose by the خر او سان the person who revolted against Arab imperialism .u)ستمي hiding under wahbi mask.
                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I really appreciate Barakzai your efforts and energy the way you wrote the above posts and quoted that article.

                        I have just a simple question
                        Whats your alternative to nationalism, democracy, secularism, capitalism and who will be your leader for Pashtuns in Afghanistan and Paklistan

                        Is it Taliban, theocracy, pan Islam, Khilafat, wahabism, salafi kingdoms like that o Saudi, monorchy as in the Arab world, military or other dictatorships or what.......

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Niazi View Post
                          So the Hadith hubul watani is fake then,

                          So much BS coming from a person who gose by the خر او سان the person who revolted against Arab imperialism .u)ستمي hiding under wahbi mask.

                          I am glad you realized what your mistake was. I have one advice for you. Guard your iman.
                          [SIZE="4"][B][CENTER][URL="www.quranawsunnat.com"]www.quranawsunnat.com
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                          [URL="www.youtube.com/Sangartube"]www.youtube.com/Sangartube
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                          Mullah 4 Life! [/CENTER][/B]

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                          • #14
                            im glad shamlawar is back, i missed him lol

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by osho View Post
                              I really appreciate Barakzai your efforts and energy the way you wrote the above posts and quoted that article.

                              I have just a simple question
                              Whats your alternative to nationalism, democracy, secularism, capitalism and who will be your leader for Pashtuns in Afghanistan and Paklistan

                              Is it Taliban, theocracy, pan Islam, Khilafat, wahabism, salafi kingdoms like that o Saudi, monorchy as in the Arab world, military or other dictatorships or what.......
                              Dear Osho,
                              Salamoona.
                              Thank you for your commentary and viewpoints. I am going to answer your question in three parts, today, tomorrow, and thereafter. I think that we have to ask ourselves what we mean by what are our plans for the region. There are two groups of us at this point, whether we like it or not; The Pashtun diaspora, specifically the west, and then those that currently inhabit Pashtunistan.

                              1. The diaspora: What language do you think, sleep, speak, swear, and dream in? For some of us it the answer is in English, for others it’s a mix of both from time to time. The point is that we are in adopted countries. We have dual responsibilities. We feel for some of our own less fortunate brethren who do not have access to the same resources and lack some of the basic rights every human being deserves. However, we also have to be cognizant for the role we play in our adopted nations. Utilizing American firepower to accomplish what we feel is best for our brethren is hubris in its purest form and treasonous to our adopted country in the same way that Alan Dershowitz is a fifth column citizen for Israel. The latter’s loyalties revolve around being an Israeli firster versus doing what is best for the denizens of his country of citizenship. He pulls young Tennessee boys into a religious/semitic war between two groups of people that offers America no national security benefit to be involved in. Rather, it appears to be a detriment to our national security, ala September 11. For that matter, what guarantee can you give to those back in our parents’ homeland that what you want to impose on them or bring them, i.e. secular democracy, is going to bear the same fruits as it did for the US? Has Bengladesh experienced such highs? For that matter, would an India deprived of American economic input be able to rise above its third world status? Finally, take a look at a quasi democratic government that is attempting to break the intellectual shackles of Zia right next door to our own.

                              You might respond: No, that is unfair as an assessment, the aforementioned do not endorse democratic secularism with the same vigor as we have in the West. They dilute it with blasphemy laws and the like. Well, the Pan Islamist and the Secular Nationalist then ought to the realize that by this line of logic, they are not so far apart. The Pan Islamist after all, argues that the reason that Islamic governments are failing is that they are not emulating the Islamic dictum, lock, stock and barrel.

                              For that matter, how well do we westernized Muslims and Pashtuns represent the
                              men on the ground? Do our value systems align and equate? This also extends to
                              the woman on the ground. For example, an American Muslim catches enough
                              flak marrying a convert or another ethnic grouping. Per my own experiences that
                              I have had back home in the villages, the Pashtun mother is as cultural in this
                              regard as her husband may be and a thousand times more than her American counterpart. I think it would be extremely arrogant on my part to come to them and to tell them: the way you live is backwards, the way you act or invest does not align with your best economic output, and my views on Islam and its place in the world are more optimal than yours.


                              It appears that with this American-Afghan war, a series of good for nothing, unaccomplished, dog washing, arm chair warriors who could not accomplish a damn thing here in the US or the West, including, but not limited to: Ameen Arsala, Hamid Karzai, Ashraf Ghani, Ahmad Wali Karzai, Gul Agha Sherzai,
                              “Prince” Seraj, relatives of Tarzai and Zahir Shah, etc. decided that they would impose their renewed Khanate on the masses on the back of an American empire. In their warped world, they would be the West to East conduit to enlighten their “little brown brothers” and free their “little brown sisters.” The problem these individuals is that are cowardly diaspora, and are actually guilty of extensive abandonment. Compare their inaction, and their expedient exit from Afghanistan with the Russian invasion to that of Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin. The former left the poor of their country, Mullah Omar Hotak, and others to fight off a barbaric invader. The latter stayed put in Pennsylvania despite overtures of the French to take them in and direct the war from France. Now, compare the outcomes of the two groups of people. The former left the shoeless, homeless, and poor to bleed for the ground and the latter led their people from the battlefield. How can the former claim their right to lead when they were like an absentee, drunkard father?

                              So the diaspora ought to follow the advice of John Adams when he stated so eloquently:

                              And now, friends and countrymen, if the wise and learned philosophers of the elder world, the first observers of nutation and aberration, the discoverers of maddening ether and invisible planets, the inventors of Congreve rockets and Shrapnel shells, should find their hearts disposed to enquire what has America done for the benefit of mankind?
                              Let our answer be this: America, with the same voice which spoke herself into existence as a nation, proclaimed to mankind the inextinguishable rights of human nature, and the only lawful foundations of government. America, in the assembly of nations, since her admission among them, has invariably, though often fruitlessly, held forth to them the hand of honest friendship, of equal freedom, of generous reciprocity.
                              She has uniformly spoken among them, though often to heedless and often to disdainful ears, the language of equal liberty, of equal justice, and of equal rights.
                              She has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations while asserting and maintaining her own.
                              She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart.
                              She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama the European world, will be contests of inveterate power, and emerging right.
                              Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be.
                              But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy.
                              She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all.
                              She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.
                              She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example.
                              She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom.
                              The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force....
                              She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit....
                              [America's] glory is not dominion, but liberty. Her march is the march of the mind. She has a spear and a shield: but the motto upon her shield is, Freedom, Independence, Peace. This has been her Declaration: this has been, as far as her necessary intercourse with the rest of mankind would permit, her practice

                              And this extends to sending for economic aid and spilling American resources in any foreign nation, including Pashtunistan. How do you justify spending American dollars and American blood and treasure in Afghanistan when America has its own issues to take care of? You might answer that it is for the national security paradigm and that controlling that piece of land is of immense benefit to the US. Well, if that is the case, then throw off the guise of wanting to do this 100% for your own people and their benefit. Furthermore, there is absolutely no proof that permanent bases in Afghanistan offer us added national security benefit when we already have a military that is invested in multiple times more than the next set of players. If it is war reparations, then the invader country must leave.

                              What we can do is extricate ourselves from this struggle and allow ANP/Afghan Mellat and its ground level backers to fight it out with the Taliban and the Pan Islamists. Basically, citizen warriors like Toramana and M16 ought to be armed per their own resources and take on Mullah Fazlullah/Mangal bagh in their areas. Gilani’s son in law and Achekzai ought to be able to fight Mullah Omar Hotak to their heart’s content. Basically, our interventionalism as diaspora ought to be to sit on the sidelines and let the locals solve their problems.

                              The only retort may be that if we stay uninvolved, other local powers such as Iran, Pakistan, Saudi, China, the Turkic nations, Russia are bound to get involved. Once again, so what? If so, let them play their own version of the great game and jeapordize their own peace, stability, blood, treasure, and resources. We Pashtuns in the west on the other hand ought to do as exactly as John Quincy said above and be the “well wishers.” This then sets the stage for America to divest itself from the bloody interventionalism that is causing pain in Egypt the Arab kingdoms you are witnessing and from earning the hatred and national insecurity from gauranteed wars of attrition that will destroy our economy. It will also turn the American economy back in the direction of innovation toward alternative energy sources, something that has been neglected and gone by the wayside, to our detriment.

                              Tomorrow, I will address the choices that the man on the ground has in regard to secular nationalism, capitalism, etc versus Pan Islamism, Khilafaat, versus tribalism, etc
                              "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

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