My appearance on Canadian talk show to discuss the Afghan war

[Toramana]

Strong points Amir Ghaznavi...You talked very well I'll say...

Giving representation to Taleban in Afghan Govt and justifyng Pakistan's interests and role in Afghanistan will be a grave mistake tantamount to permanent Talebanization of Pashtun society and dilution of Pashtun identity ... In the end what you see is the assimilation of the entire Pashtun community into the Indian Muslim polity losing its distinctive character...

[Alchemist]

I understand where you come from, but you also have to understand when a long haired bearded Pashtun named Abdul Rahman Karim goes on tv, never mind getting harassed later by intelligence i am not concerned about that, but it becomes very easy to dismiss me as some muslim fanatic

and thus the points i could raise become dismissable

and yes, i pride myself on being pragmatic and diplomatic, so thats how i carry myself

having said that, i can easily claim and support the following

1. yes absolutely afghanistan needs the help of the intl community

2. yes absolutely there have been improvements. inconsistent, grossly inefficient considering the resources etc. but i was in afghanistan during the taliban era. bro, there have been improvements.

3. wrora as i told the gentlemen, the pashtun marginalization is a combination of pashtun sympathy for the taliban, taliban intimidation, and northern alliance power. so i acknowledged that there is sympathy. will you acknowledge that in some areas, some Talibs have no support of the people and are intimidated?

4. having spoken with afghans/non afghans from afghanistan recently, yes night raids have been "efficient" in security terms. im not applying a judgement or a moral arguements. im simply describing the reality. the recent intensification of the war has had an effect. enough to make continued combat operations feasible? no. enough to have a long term effect? no. but there have been short term gains

5. if you want this war to end, do you discuss the historical errors in going in to Afghanistan (hell, I dont think they ever should have went it in the first place), or do you discuss strategy so we can concieve an end result? lets be practical wrora.

Let's be clear on these terms first:

International Presence:

We are talking about 1) NGOs 2) Foreign Military 3) Mercenaries

1) NGOs are theifs and missionaries for the West. Their work is to compromise the culture of a people and white wash them as much as possible. Some function as fronts for other heinous organizations with malginant ideologies and others are money launderers and human traffickers. I am sorry, but you are naive!
2) Foreign Military presence in the 160,000 numbers equals to a figure resembling the Soviet's Army of 100,000 in the 80s..and proportionate causality rate. Furthermore, the situation of Afghans has not "improved" by their presence but is deteriorating! The whole country has turned into a war zone. There are no REAL infrastructure because the taliban and the contractors and the army and the warlords are all working together to make sure their own pockets are filling up first. I even suppose that the heroine production and distribution is supported by the Proxies working with Army. The ANA is a joke! The real intentions of NATO is to use ANA as a buffer between it's self and the mujahideen. Realistically speaking not even 50 years will Afghanistan have a capable Army and Government that is able to function like that of france of japan. Developed Cities and Countries had a 300 year head start..so even with the combine efforts of the international community and all their resources you still wouldn't get what you want! Japan has contribute about $10 billion towards the reconstruction of Afghanistan ... the highest so far! How many troops do they have in Afghanistan? None. NATO doesn't want to see a fully functional army or government because then they would really have to leave..not just from AFghanistan but from Pakistan too...and the middle east! Stop saying that their presence is needed...please.


In regards to the sympathy that people feel towards the taliban, this is characteristic to a people who feel occupied! Every time the US crashes a wedding, 100 people join the Taliban...even James said this. You, and other pashtuns on this forum, have to get it in their head that the Taliban are a nationalistic movement...heck they took over AFghanistan! The same way the Afghans rose against the soviets, organizing themselves from village to village, the same way they are doing in AFghanistan and Pakistan. Look forward to a Talibistan that comprises both regions...It's no small secret that Afghans have taken up the drug trade..especially those in the Southern Region of Afghanistan...guns for heroine..sounds like a simple trade. Rather than advocate for negotiations...you should have condemned the fraudulent elections...like James did. Why would you encourage NATO and canadians to pursue military action for a resolution?


Let's not assume that the growth in the economy is due the presence of NATO. Afghanistan's Neighboring countries have trouble at their boarders because NATO's supply route is constantly being attacked. I would suppose that growth was due it's time. The Heroine trade itself generates about 50 billion US for Afghanistan. Then of the billions poured into AFghanistan, a large chunk of it is missing and most of it hasn't reached the ordinary people except for the USAID bags that fall from the sky. Even if you have been to AFghanistan, the major cities are relatively well off but what about the 80% rest? Have their conditions improved much?


You can speculate all you like on what could happen if the taliban and the Karzai Administration and Nato got married to each other...what would their children look like? I could speculate on what would have happened if the US had not attacked Afghanistan and the international community recognized them as a legitimate government... Would people like you have ever returned to Afghanistan to help them in reconstruction?

[graveyardofempires]

i have watched the debate and i think you did a good job
but i must say there were many things i wouldnt agree .

but overall you held to your ground well vs the greedy bookwriter military and the so called Un neutral diplomate.

the anti war guy also did well

[Alchemist]

Also, to my pashtun brothers, as a farsiwan I give you full support in kicking the ass of the likes of "parsiwaan" from here to the moon. I don't like his attitude and his views do not represent the typical view of other farsiwan Afghans.

[Toramana]

Also, to my pashtun brothers, as a farsiwan I give you full support in kicking the ass of the likes of "parsiwaan" from here to the moon. I don't like his attitude and his views do not represent the typical view of other farsiwan Afghans.

Mr Al-Arabi Al-Bakistani you should at least be honest to reveal your true identity here...Why hide behind that facade...?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Mr Al-Arabi Al-Bakistani you should at least be honest to reveal your true identity here...Why hide behind that facade...?

He never claimed to be an Arab. You assumed it based on his screen name.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Also, to my pashtun brothers, as a farsiwan I give you full support in kicking the ass of the likes of "parsiwaan" from here to the moon. I don't like his attitude and his views do not represent the typical view of other farsiwan Afghans.

Absolutely. You are our brother. Things get a little heated; my issue with Parsiwaan was more that Ghaznavi maintained a consistently respectful tone and Parsiwaan kept instigating useless slander. He wouldn't even dissect the arguments and obviously had not watched the video.

[Catya Sher]

Alchemist is a smartie. Thank God he explained
everything so well.

I was really beginning to wonder where people's minds are....

Brilliant deduction that the US and its few allies who are seriously enthusiastic [most are putting on a show in return for handouts or trades of some sort in my estimation ] are doing the classic process of
Penelope-like stalling.
Penelope was virtuous.

But here the same tactic is being used to the detriment of all - but those who
are making huge sums of money by the continuation of this war.

There is NO WAY they are going to leave unless a hitherto hidden VOLCANO in the Pamirs erupts and covers all that military hardware in lava...

Too many parties are making too much dinero to quit.

[Azmal]

http://www.ctstv.com/michaelcoren/?vidID=20828

considering my opinion isnt too popular here in Canada, I was under fire, but I think I held my ground well


feedback is welcome

Interesting discussion…Amir alGhaznavi....exactly how does accommodating Pakistan’s interest could serve us Pashtons?
The idea that Pashtons are Taliban or all Taliban are Pashtons is erroneous, let’s assume the NATO/West after loss of blood and treasure leave then what?
WHAT will Taliban take from the average Pashton ? What will they give to Pashtons? WHAT would they want to have? WHAT "worldly possessions”? Taliban rule 1996-2001 was marked by starving population and dependency of half of population to foreigner (western) aid. The demand of modern times [as we do not live in the dark times anymore] is to get EDUCATED and abandon tribal rule, leave in the ditch of history... and start WORKING for their own future, instead of waiting for "donations" ! "aid" is, like the word says, AID = HELP !! It does not mean supplying the population with an income and not even "aid" comes forever!
Keep above facts in mind how does accommodating Taliban (Pakistan’s interest) will serve Afghan/Pashton nation?

NATO will have to go back, but by then Taliban, as an ideology/tool will be a tried and be failed phenomenon by the Pakis , and their superiors.
"If" for some reason Taliban came back to power, after NATO leaves, it would only take a couple of B52 to send back to caves, if they rub the west in the wrong way.

Tribal supremacy/ hierarchy and wealth is the main factors. The relationship between the “Sarhadis” with the foreigners goes back for centuries. British, and Russians, and paki, knows very well, how to ignite the deep passion in that population, and manipulate them as they wished.
Title, ethnicity, religion, and wealth, are cards that played by the foreigners to control, and mobilize the population. No one knows how to use them better than the former colonial and her illegitimate child (successor). The Brits did not conquer the world by their guns, but by understanding, and manipulating population’s raw passion. They will provide them with titles, supremacy of tribe, money and if required religion and god. In return, they will take everything from them, from their worldly possessions to their soul.

(You can see examples of it here in this forum, where ever one brags about tribal supremacy, historical power and wealth, religious devotion, and many other superficial credentials)


Dialog with Taliban sounds like a sensible approach to try…but must be seen in above mentioned lights….lets assume if Taliban agree to it…it really will indicate that the Pakistan, recognize the ultimate futility of their military efforts and would rather find some sort of face-saving accommodation with the NATO forces.
Every one understands that eventually the NATO troops will need to leave. So the Taliban can choose to sit back and wait a few more years. The zealots among the Taliban will no doubt want to show their "ghiyrat" and bravery against the NATO troops, but the more sensible might be exploring the option of waiting for the problem to go away.

In eastern culture…sitting down at tea is an indication that sensible minds are prevailing, although this should not be taken by the west as a guarantee of anything. Taliban strategies can change on a moment's notice especially if Pakistan deems it necessary…claiming tender sensibilities are aggravated in an eggregious manner… an outright affront to Islam would be one such example…dishonoring women would be another.

Talk with Taliban will be a complicated path with many options, many often seen and used already in recent Paki history.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Interesting discussion…Amir alGhaznavi....exactly how does accommodating Pakistan’s interest could serve us Pashtons?
The idea that Pashtons are Taliban or all Taliban are Pashtons is erroneous, let’s assume the NATO/West after loss of blood and treasure leave then what?
WHAT will Taliban take from the average Pashton ? What will they give to Pashtons? WHAT would they want to have? WHAT "worldly possessions”? Taliban rule 1996-2001 was marked by starving population and dependency of half of population to foreigner (western) aid. The demand of modern times [as we do not live in the dark times anymore] is to get EDUCATED and abandon tribal rule, leave in the ditch of history... and start WORKING for their own future, instead of waiting for "donations" ! "aid" is, like the word says, AID = HELP !! It does not mean supplying the population with an income and not even "aid" comes forever!
Keep above facts in mind how does accommodating Taliban (Pakistan’s interest) will serve Afghan/Pashton nation?

NATO will have to go back, but by then Taliban, as an ideology/tool will be a tried and be failed phenomenon by the Pakis , and their superiors.
"If" for some reason Taliban came back to power, after NATO leaves, it would only take a couple of B52 to send back to caves, if they rub the west in the wrong way.

Tribal supremacy/ hierarchy and wealth is the main factors. The relationship between the “Sarhadis” with the foreigners goes back for centuries. British, and Russians, and paki, knows very well, how to ignite the deep passion in that population, and manipulate them as they wished.
Title, ethnicity, religion, and wealth, are cards that played by the foreigners to control, and mobilize the population. No one knows how to use them better than the former colonial and her illegitimate child (successor). The Brits did not conquer the world by their guns, but by understanding, and manipulating population’s raw passion. They will provide them with titles, supremacy of tribe, money and if required religion and god. In return, they will take everything from them, from their worldly possessions to their soul.

(You can see examples of it here in this forum, where ever one brags about tribal supremacy, historical power and wealth, religious devotion, and many other superficial credentials)


Dialog with Taliban sounds like a sensible approach to try…but must be seen in above mentioned lights….lets assume if Taliban agree to it…it really will indicate that the Pakistan, recognize the ultimate futility of their military efforts and would rather find some sort of face-saving accommodation with the NATO forces.
Every one understands that eventually the NATO troops will need to leave. So the Taliban can choose to sit back and wait a few more years. The zealots among the Taliban will no doubt want to show their "ghiyrat" and bravery against the NATO troops, but the more sensible might be exploring the option of waiting for the problem to go away.

In eastern culture…sitting down at tea is an indication that sensible minds are prevailing, although this should not be taken by the west as a guarantee of anything. Taliban strategies can change on a moment's notice especially if Pakistan deems it necessary…claiming tender sensibilities are aggravated in an eggregious manner… an outright affront to Islam would be one such example…dishonoring women would be another.

Talk with Taliban will be a complicated path with many options, many often seen and used already in recent Paki history.

Wrong on multiple counts:

1) Though it is erroneous to assume that all Pashtuns are Taliban and vice versa, it is foolish to assume that a reasonable contingent of pashtuns are not taliban or could not be lured to fight alongside the Taliban. For reference, see:
http://freedomsyndicate.com/fair0000/times0045.html
http://www.thenation.com/article/157...-insider-talks
"presence. We misunderstand many ofthecauses of support for the Taliban. They didn’t wear sandwich boards or hand out pamphlets to win people. They are the Pashtuns. Most don’t want to rule the country. They just want to get rid of the occupiers."
Perhaps you ought to write Marine Commander Hoh and convince his Afghan Study Group that they are wrong. I look forward to your response.

2) Pakistan will see futility of their military efforts: Hardly, the economy is shambles and a counter current circuit is set up that funnels money into the Pakistani economy ala Kerry Lugar Funding and simultaneously bogs the Americans down across the border. It is a dangerous game and unless Pakistan understands it is destabilizing itself, which the military appears to be coming to this conclusion, it will tear the country apart.

3) Futility of effort: Per my discussion in the Nationalism and Interventionalist Thread and per the references provided by the Indian Diplomat that wrote the piece, the amazingly foolish parliamentarian gymnastics being conducted to lame duck Karzai gaurantees what Ghaznavi spoke out, the disenfranchizement of Pashtuns shall serve as a recruiting bonanza and gaurantee that KP Pashtuns remain somewhat involved to avoid an indiacentric/Northern Alliance/minority driven government. Basically, the tactics employed have gauranteed at least a decade and a half more of war.

4) As Ghaznavi notes Pakistan has not changed its policy for a decade now, and per what I cite above in regard to economic gain, it is unlikely to ever do so as long as an India centric Afghanistan is on the horizon.

5) Even if you remove Pakistan from the equation, you have provided no facts stats or any figures to conclusively show that the Pashtun insurgents fighting the NATO alliance is not predominantly Afghanistan side of the durand line Pashtuns. In fact, the Qandahar Shura and the various tribal alliances gaurantees that they in fact are Afghans and not Pakistanis or Lahoris dressed in Afghan get up.

6) The Afghan War will peter out: Wrong again. The Afghans are famously xenophobic and would have fought Russians with their Lee Enfield rifles even if the Stingers were not available. The CIA had just as much acknowledged this.

7) NATO will willingly leave: Wrong, Lindsey Graham has lobbied for permanent bases. However, their lack of desire to leave will be their unmaking. It appears that Mr. Bin Ladin was extremely astute in choosing his battle ground. He and his like minded folks can kill Americas soldier children at their leisure and expend little resources. They have stated their goal is to maintain American presence in multiple theatres of war to gaurantee that enough blood and treasure is hemorrhaged that the giant Gulliver falls to its knees.

[IamDZJ]

brother ghaznavi, a very genuine question i have...please don't mind me asking this but what exactly do you ask them for when you go in to get your eyebrows done????
i swear, every time i go in, they ruin my eyebrows! that is exactly the how i want them to make mine too.