Critique of Free Will in Western Liberal Democracy

[MazloomyarMaseed]

[QUOTE=Sangar;21864]I feel sorry for you. You are so full of hate and anger, you grap any opportunity to side with the Kuffar against Islam and the Muslims.

Full of hate and anger....hahaha coming from a Salafi who wants shias and sufis to be slaughtered in public and their bodies hang so others can see.

HIPOcrite!

[imb706]

The bases of my argument is not flawed.

Sure it is. For example, it's basing itself on the idea that free will exist. That and all it is is the typical muslim attempt to convince people freedom is satanic and to stop drawing cartoons to inflame their bronze age sensibilities.

@ Imb706: I wouldn't worry what he says about your being offended and all. He's made similar remarks to me and all others with whom he chooses to have discussions. He seems to beleive that he has power over us that allows him to offend us even in the slightest, or incite any other weak emotions in us, and I think that's just adorable! It's like, dude, man, it's called disagreement; live with it, or just move on. I'm starting to think that he speaks for himself when he tells others that they are offended or have anger issues or need to learn how to handle differences and so forth. That must be the case, yes.

Thanks for the support Qrratugai

[شمله ور خراساني]

Sure it is. For example, it's basing itself on the idea that free will exist. That and all it is is the typical muslim attempt to convince people freedom is satanic and to stop drawing cartoons to inflame their bronze age sensibilities.



Thanks for the support Qrratugai

Freedom of will as in freedom to choose what you won't no. It doesn't exist. And that's what I am trying to say. Because all your choices are designed for you by others. You don't really have much choice but to select among a few options.

ANd therefore it is wrong to believe people who believe in a certain religion and design their life in accordance to a particular religion are some how not free. And those who are not believers are free.

[Maiwand]

In Islam we don't know pahtunwali, tajikwali, hazarajaat or whatever. We are all one Ummah and one nation. From Spain until Indonesia. We are one body. It is not appropriate for the muslims to make distinction among themselves in terms of nationality, language or ethnicity. That's something from the Jahilya (time of ignorance). Inshallah in the near future we are going to establish the Khilafah state again and every muslim will be welcome to stay in it. That's what all the hypocrites and unbelievers are afraid of. They are afraid of the muslim unity, that's why they use theire proxies (dogs) to divide the muslim Ummah and after that conquer one land after the other, like they have done with Afghanistan, Irak, Somalia, Palestine, Pakistan and in the near future more Islamic countries, if the muslims don't wake up and realise that it is a war between Islam and unbelief, a war that had started 1400 years ago with the completion of the Islamic religion. It is your choice, whether you side with the kuffar or the muslims, but if you support the kuffar in any shape or form, you have only yourself to blame on the day of judgment and you will be thrown in the hell fire for ever and ever. As far as "western liberal democracy" is concerned, such thing doesn't exist in reality, it's only an ideal, just like communism and "democracy" is an ideal state on paper, but the reality is otherwise. Secular democray is the biggest shirk, unbelief, because people do not rule with the law of God, but with the man-made laws. And it won't long time inshallah, that we establish the Islamic state all over the world and make the word of Allah (swt) supreme!

[شمله ور خراساني]

Well Said Salahudeen... oh I mean Maiwand.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

In Islam we don't know pahtunwali, tajikwali, hazarajaat or whatever. We are all one Ummah and one nation. From Spain until Indonesia. We are one body. It is not appropriate for the muslims to make distinction among themselves in terms of nationality, language or ethnicity. That's something from the Jahilya (time of ignorance). Inshallah in the near future we are going to establish the Khilafah state again and every muslim will be welcome to stay in it. That's what all the hypocrites and unbelievers are afraid of. They are afraid of the muslim unity, that's why they use theire proxies (dogs) to divide the muslim Ummah and after that conquer one land after the other, like they have done with Afghanistan, Irak, Somalia, Palestine, Pakistan and in the near future more Islamic countries, if the muslims don't wake up and realise that it is a war between Islam and unbelief, a war that had started 1400 years ago with the completion of the Islamic religion. It is your choice, whether you side with the kuffar or the muslims, but if you support the kuffar in any shape or form, you have only yourself to blame on the day of judgment and you will be thrown in the hell fire for ever and ever. As far as "western liberal democracy" is concerned, such thing doesn't exist in reality, it's only an ideal, just like communism and "democracy" is an ideal state on paper, but the reality is otherwise. Secular democray is the biggest shirk, unbelief, because people do not rule with the law of God, but with the man-made laws. And it won't long time inshallah, that we establish the Islamic state all over the world and make the word of Allah (swt) supreme!

stop the emotional blackmail.

We dont need the tablighi lecture.

Your Muslims love to live in Europe than their own Islamic countries, doesnt this tell you anything.

If secular Democracy is shirk, then your ISI jihadi Salafism is also shirk.

Establish an Islamic state, how many times has it happened but completely failed? ottomons, arabs,persians etc etc etc

Also we dont need Arab economic imperialism to shower our lands and destroy our identity to secure their influence over our areas.

You can screem kaffir or shirk all you want, but Ummah is a fantasy invented by Desert Jockeys who want to rule over you,

And you say Pashtunwali and love for your culture is jahiliayat? then why do you support Palestinian independence, isnt that nationalism and jahilayat.

You are brainwashed to go against your own people to serve Arabs.

and Salafist Wahabist laws are good on Paper????? what happened during the taliban rule?

Please we are no longer so easily deceived by Mullah talk, we are in the information media era, we do not live in the stone ages anymore where you can trick us by scaring us with monsters and demons.

[Maiwand]

ahahaha.

[Maiwand]

emotional blackmail, ahahha. Look who is talking.

[Maiwand]

stop the emotional blackmail.

We dont need the tablighi lecture.

Your Muslims love to live in Europe than their own Islamic countries, doesnt this tell you anything.

If secular Democracy is shirk, then your ISI jihadi Salafism is also shirk.

Establish an Islamic state, how many times has it happened but completely failed? ottomons, arabs,persians etc etc etc

Also we dont need Arab economic imperialism to shower our lands and destroy our identity to secure their influence over our areas.

You can screem kaffir or shirk all you want, but Ummah is a fantasy invented by Desert Jockeys who want to rule over you,

And you say Pashtunwali and love for your culture is jahiliayat? then why do you support Palestinian independence, isnt that nationalism and jahilayat.

You are brainwashed to go against your own people to serve Arabs.

and Salafist Wahabist laws are good on Paper????? what happened during the taliban rule?

Please we are no longer so easily deceived by Mullah talk, we are in the information media era, we do not live in the stone ages anymore where you can trick us by scaring us with monsters and demons.

emotional blackmail, ahahha. Look who is talking.

[Maiwand]

Well Said Salahudeen... oh I mean Maiwand.

ahaha, Salahueen is everywhere, conquering new territory

[شمله ور خراساني]

emotional blackmail, ahahha. Look who is talking.

Maiwand Khan, ignore this makeenMaseed He is a clown. Check him out on youtube: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=896_1211745868

[Maiwand]

ahaha, those nationalists are really pathetic.

[Roshina]

I feel sorry for you. You are so full of hate and anger, you grap any opportunity to side with the Kuffar against Islam and the Muslims.

May allah guide you.

May Allah guide you as well! How interesting that our views of each other are like 100% the same much of the time, yeah?

[Roshina]

In Islam we don't know pahtunwali, tajikwali, hazarajaat or whatever. We are all one Ummah and one nation. From Spain until Indonesia. We are one body. It is not appropriate for the muslims to make distinction among themselves in terms of nationality, language or ethnicity. That's something from the Jahilya (time of ignorance). Inshallah in the near future we are going to establish the Khilafah state again and every muslim will be welcome to stay in it. That's what all the hypocrites and unbelievers are afraid of. They are afraid of the muslim unity, that's why they use theire proxies (dogs) to divide the muslim Ummah and after that conquer one land after the other, like they have done with Afghanistan, Irak, Somalia, Palestine, Pakistan and in the near future more Islamic countries, if the muslims don't wake up and realise that it is a war between Islam and unbelief, a war that had started 1400 years ago with the completion of the Islamic religion. It is your choice, whether you side with the kuffar or the muslims, but if you support the kuffar in any shape or form, you have only yourself to blame on the day of judgment and you will be thrown in the hell fire for ever and ever. As far as "western liberal democracy" is concerned, such thing doesn't exist in reality, it's only an ideal, just like communism and "democracy" is an ideal state on paper, but the reality is otherwise. Secular democray is the biggest shirk, unbelief, because people do not rule with the law of God, but with the man-made laws. And it won't long time inshallah, that we establish the Islamic state all over the world and make the word of Allah (swt) supreme!

You fail to use Islamic sources to back any of your points up.

And western democracy is actually quite practiced *in the west.* (As a friend of mine once said, the west isn't so west when it's in the east! I agree with this. When the west is in the east, it forgets about its ideals of humanism and liberty for all, but in the west, it fights to keep these same ideals -- and quite successfully almost all of the time.)

However, I must remind you that this Ummah you speak of is very unrealistic. You want the entire Muslim world to unite, but you don't seem to realize that Pashtuns ARE Muslims - first unite them. Take it one step at a time, bro, will you? Uniting Pashtuns will mean uniting Muslims.

Then, you also don't seem to have a plan for how to achieve universal unity of all Muslims. I doubt anyone will disagree with you that unity is the most important thing for the survival of humanity, including Muslims. We can't be guaranteed a safe future if we keep killing each other -- but you know what the problem is, wrorai? This:

We can't agree on what defines a Muslim! We think all Muslims who disagree with us are heretics. Why should anyone agree with this? Why should someone who doesn't know how to judge properly be even ALLLOWED to speak of an "Islamic state"? Why should the rest of the world listen to her/him?

So, yeah, as long as we keep this low a mentality, we'll never be united.

[Roshina]

You have failed to understand what this is about.

It is not about free will as in the context of Qadar in Islam. Go and re-read the initial post. You are mixing things up now.

No. Your first post made it clear that you consider yourself a victim of people's views:

The free will and freedom of choice people claim to have in Western Liberal Democracies is very limited.

The claim that Islam is against free will and muslims are not free is often made by champions of free will and liberalism.

The difference is, liberalists follow man made codes and ethics. And our codes and ethics are based on revelation.

You, dear brother, seem to think that the only categories in existence today are "Muslims" and "western liberal democrats," which is far, far from true. You also see to think that ALL Muslims agree on whether there's free will or not. And that, too, is not true. Look into some Islamic (or Muslim) philosophy, and study some Muslim philosophers.

If you understood my post, you'd have seen that it's not just Muslims who are often in disputes with those who are pro-free will; non-Muslim theists are in the same shoes with Muslims. But, na, we'd rather see ourselves as victims of everyone's comments.

And, by the way, you don't believe in free will but that doesn't make it existent or non-existent. Free will is one of the most widely discussed topic in philosophy and religions, and it's not as simple as you wanna believe it is.

However, as for me, it doesn't matter to me. Whether I have free will or not, I will still continue doing what I believe is right and avoid what I believe is wrong, so it doens't change anything for me -- and I *know* it doesn't change anything for everyone else either. But that's just us to whom it doesn't matter; to some people, it's their entire lifetime.