Critique of Free Will in Western Liberal Democracy

[شمله ور خراساني]

The free will and freedom of choice people claim to have in Western Liberal Democracies is very limited. The choice is led by systematic education, advertisement, propaganda and manipulation.

People are made to believe they are free to choose among various options presented to them. But their options are presented to them by institutions, organizations and corporations who intend to influence and coerse the masses.

The claim that Islam is against free will and muslims are not free is often made by champions of free will and liberalism. But they are often unaware of how they are led to believe in free will by institutions who in fact have influenced them to choose to live and behave in accordance to mores designed by others.

I believe that there is no difference between being a devout Muslim or a liberalist. Both choose to follow dogma, and both adapt to certain codes and ethics.

The difference is, liberalists follow man made codes and ethics. And our codes and ethics are based on revelation.

[imb706]

I agree that free will doesn't exist, but not in the way you think. Free will doesn't exist period, everything humans do is determined by nature, we're highly complex, emotional beings (you can read a lot about this here: http://rationalrevolution.net/articl..._economics.htm) As Sid Myer said, human behavior is economic behavior.

The choice is led by systematic education

Um, education creates freedom and opportunity. Obviously peoples lives are better and more free since free education has been introduced into society. Countries with more emphasis on education and educational opportunities have a higher quality of life.

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Advertisement is just a natural part of humanity. Yes deceptive advertising should be fought, but it's not the root of all evil.

propaganda and manipulation.

The societies with the most propaganda and manipulation is the islamic world.

The claim that Islam is against free will and muslims are not free is often made by champions of free will and liberalism

Um, not really. If anything, the "champions of free will and liberalism" come to the aid of Islam all the time. Look at liberal corporations and organizations that make heavy ties with Saudi Arabia and the UAE. They are major corporations, a result of liberalism, wet dreams, when it comes to profit and product advertisement anyway.

But they are often unaware of how they are led to believe in free will by institutions who in fact have influenced them to choose to live and behave in accordance to mores designed by others.

Like how muslims in islamic countries are led to believe what they do by their societies?

People are made to believe they are free to choose among various options presented to them. But their options are presented to them by institutions, organizations and corporations who intend to influence and coerse the masses.

Like in the Islamic world?

The difference is, liberalists follow man made codes and ethics. And our codes and ethics are based on revelation.

All codes and ethics are man made. Muslims try way too hard to get people to not be for publishing cartoons.

[شمله ور خراساني]

You should learn not to get to exited.

The argument is, that you have your options already presented to you by institutions. Just like a religion.

I did not say we as Muslims enjoy more freedom of choice than you. I just said, your dogma of freedom of choice is false IF you think you have absolute freedom of choice. Because you don't. You just have a few options.

The way your life is organized, it is highly dependent on institutions, organizations and large political and social movements who decide for you.

You don't have a choice but to conform to the requirements of the time and situation you live in. And that is very strongly shaped by institutions.

So in essence, your freedom of choice is limited.

The way you dress, the things you eat, the places you visit, the things you do, most of it is standard and defined by insititutions and organizations who did that for you. You can't deny that.

I agree that free will doesn't exist, but not in the way you think. Free will doesn't exist period, everything humans do is determined by nature, we're highly complex, emotional beings (you can read a lot about this here: http://rationalrevolution.net/articl..._economics.htm) As Sid Myer said, human behavior is economic behavior. Um, education creates freedom and opportunity. Obviously peoples lives are better and more free since free education has been introduced into society. Countries with more emphasis on education and educational opportunities have a higher quality of life. Advertisement is just a natural part of humanity. Yes deceptive advertising should be fought, but it's not the root of all evil. The societies with the most propaganda and manipulation is the islamic world. Um, not really. If anything, the "champions of free will and liberalism" come to the aid of Islam all the time. Look at liberal corporations and organizations that make heavy ties with Saudi Arabia and the UAE. They are major corporations, a result of liberalism, wet dreams, when it comes to profit and product advertisement anyway. Like how muslims in islamic countries are led to believe what they do by their societies? Like in the Islamic world? All codes and ethics are man made. Muslims try way too hard to get people to not be for publishing cartoons.

[imb706]

You should learn not to get to exited.

Do you mean excited, because that's the last word I expected to see :p

The argument is, that you have your options already presented to you by institutions. Just like a religion. The way you dress, the things you eat, the places you visit, the things you do, most of it is standard and defined by insititutions and organizations who did that for you. You can't deny that.

Well, duh, just that the Islamic religions "options" are misery, poverty, death, ignorance and destruction. Not so in the modern world.

I just said, your dogma of freedom of choice is false IF you think you have absolute freedom of choice.

Again, this is the most piss poor argument for banning cartoons I've ever seen. No one really cares what people who don't like or understand freedom of expression (you did mean that, didn't you?) think about the topic to be perfectly honest. At least to the point when they're willing to blow your ass up over a teddy bear drawing. You come off as terribly uneducated and trying really hard to get people to be against a simple drawing. When people from the Islamic world crusade against freedom and try to talk about how much of a lie and bad it is, they only prove their critics right. They're very primitive and stuck in the 11th century.

You don't have a choice but to conform to the requirements of the time and situation you live in. And that is very strongly shaped by institutions.

Thanks for the obvious observation.

[شمله ور خراساني]

you are a offended. DOn't be. Relax

[imb706]

I'm not offended, I'm just pointing out how the very basis of your argument is flawed and is not going to win anyone over, well, maybe except muslims. It would help your case if you knew what terms like liberal and such meant.

[Roshina]

Sangara, the claim isn't made against Muslims alone. I'm not sure why some Muslims find pleasure in ALWAYS seeing themselves as the victims of everything. You're not, unless you believe you are.

The claim is made simply against everyone who believes in God. Period. And it's not just Muslims who believe in God, remember?

Many have tried to argue for free will using religion, but none have succeeded in my mind. I remain thinking that "if God knows you're gonna do A, then you can't do B or -A because to do so will mean that God believed the wrong thing, which is not possible since God doesn't/can't lie or make wrong predictions." But I'm not too sure yet 'cause I'll have to look a little deeper into the debate before deciding it free will exists or not.

I once read an article that talked about how this is the case (i.e., free will doesn't exist) only if God is in time with us, which I haven't fully grasped yet, so I'll have to look into that to really get its essence.

[Roshina]

you are a offended. DOn't be. Relax

LOL! OMG! :D there you go again, Sangar telling people to "relax" just because they disagree with you, and thinking that they are "offended" just because of the same thing, lol.

I must make a collections of all of your reactions to people who disagree with you. They'd be fun to read in times of distress, methinks.

@ Imb706: I wouldn't worry what he says about your being offended and all. He's made similar remarks to me and all others with whom he chooses to have discussions. He seems to beleive that he has power over us that allows him to offend us even in the slightest, or incite any other weak emotions in us, and I think that's just adorable! It's like, dude, man, it's called disagreement; live with it, or just move on. I'm starting to think that he speaks for himself when he tells others that they are offended or have anger issues or need to learn how to handle differences and so forth. That must be the case, yes.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

Imb706 do you see yourself as a atheist Mullah?

As i said so many times, dont hate Muslims as they always come to fight for your CIA khazar missions, Now Iran is on the target, who will you use and abuse to get your plans completed, you guess it, its gonna be your Muslim servents hahaha!

I dont see why Americans complain about Radical Muslim Islamists, they are your first class graduates of Jihadi University of Nebraska hahaha!

[Maiwand]

The only people who are truly free are the real muslims. Because we only obey God, the one who created us and nobody else. All the other people are slaves of others or they are slaves of their own lusts and desires.

[imb706]

Imb706 do you see yourself as a atheist Mullah?

There's atheist mullahs I ask again? So they're in it for the many wives or just in it for the drug trade?

As i said so many times, dont hate Muslims as they always come to fight for your CIA khazar missions, Now Iran is on the target, who will you use and abuse to get your plans completed, you guess it, its gonna be your Muslim servents hahaha! I dont see why Americans complain about Radical Muslim Islamists, they are your first class graduates of Jihadi University of Nebraska hahaha!

Are you on drugs?

[شمله ور خراساني]

I'm not offended, I'm just pointing out how the very basis of your argument is flawed and is not going to win anyone over, well, maybe except muslims. It would help your case if you knew what terms like liberal and such meant.

The bases of my argument is not flawed. You only say that because you hear this from a Muslim. While in fact this is stated by sociologists and philosphers of the west.

Freedom of choice is an illusion you are made to believe in.

And the reason why you are trying to counter this by cheap blows against Islam only affirms that you are unable to accept this fact from a Muslim.

THat's why I used the term dogma.

[شمله ور خراساني]

LOL! OMG! :D there you go again, Sangar telling people to "relax" just because they disagree with you, and thinking that they are "offended" just because of the same thing, lol.

I must make a collections of all of your reactions to people who disagree with you. They'd be fun to read in times of distress, methinks.

@ Imb706: I wouldn't worry what he says about your being offended and all. He's made similar remarks to me and all others with whom he chooses to have discussions. He seems to beleive that he has power over us that allows him to offend us even in the slightest, or incite any other weak emotions in us, and I think that's just adorable! It's like, dude, man, it's called disagreement; live with it, or just move on. I'm starting to think that he speaks for himself when he tells others that they are offended or have anger issues or need to learn how to handle differences and so forth. That must be the case, yes.

I feel sorry for you. You are so full of hate and anger, you grap any opportunity to side with the Kuffar against Islam and the Muslims.

May allah guide you.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Sangara, the claim isn't made against Muslims alone. I'm not sure why some Muslims find pleasure in ALWAYS seeing themselves as the victims of everything. You're not, unless you believe you are.

The claim is made simply against everyone who believes in God. Period. And it's not just Muslims who believe in God, remember?

Many have tried to argue for free will using religion, but none have succeeded in my mind. I remain thinking that "if God knows you're gonna do A, then you can't do B or -A because to do so will mean that God believed the wrong thing, which is not possible since God doesn't/can't lie or make wrong predictions." But I'm not too sure yet 'cause I'll have to look a little deeper into the debate before deciding it free will exists or not.

I once read an article that talked about how this is the case (i.e., free will doesn't exist) only if God is in time with us, which I haven't fully grasped yet, so I'll have to look into that to really get its essence.

You have failed to understand what this is about.

It is not about free will as in the context of Qadar in Islam. Go and re-read the initial post. You are mixing things up now.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

I feel sorry for you. You are so full of hate and anger, you grap any opportunity to side with the Kuffar against Islam and the Muslims.

May allah guide you.

Here we go again with the ranting Salafis, If she has sided with the Kuffur then your also sided with the Kuffur as your living in a state of Kuffurs. You live under their laws which makes you a citizen of Holland, logically, if you live there means you accept their laws, which makes you a bigger friend of Kuffur.

May common sense guide you.

If nobody can question Islam then whats the point of an Intellectual debate, should we all bow down to the Emir of salafism and accept whatever non sense you invented and impose on people.

Just because you can not argue with people doesnt make them friends of Kuffurs, i know hurts that an Female whom you Salafis regard as nothing but an Sexual object who should spend their lives in the kitchen or provide you with desire whenever you want or the angels will curse them at night.

Also Sangar....the biggest friends of the Kuffur were your Mujahideen, especially your heros such as Haqqanis haha can you tell me how much dollars and weapons did they receive from the Kuffurs of America

Its become fashion to use Arabic curse words,but we can fight back sangar and say the same, that those who oppose Pashtunwali are not Pashtuns but Kwanees, The term "kwanee" should be established as a new word that best describes those traitors who bend over to Arabs,Americans and punjabis and work against Pashtunwali and Pashtun culture.

Have a great day.