No to Durrand line

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Walaikum Salam Abdali sahab, singaya? I hope you are in good health.
I would like an elaboration on the above. When I made those threads, my point was very general. I don't endorse the Taliban, nor do I endorse ANP. All I am attempting to say is, we Pashtuns do not recognize the imaginary line. Clean and simple. I did not write the above, nor did I claim it's the gospel.
Respected wrora, I would appreciate it if you can elaborate on the claim made above.
I don't agree with everything Asfandyaar does, nor do I agree with everything Karzai does. However, if they say something I like, I will respect it. If you take a look at my sig, despite Karzai being a puppet, he said the border divided brothers, which is why I have it in my sig. Does that mean I endorse Karzai? Of course not. It would be outrageous for anyone to assert such a claim. Same goes with Asfandyaar, I liked how the ANP opposed Musharraf, and that is all I mentioned. No where on PF, have I boasted on how ANP, Taliban or Karzai is the solution to our problems.

My point with that article is, despite people saying Taliban are the product of ISI, even they refused to recognize the imaginary line. It's sort of a general point I am making here, the point is quite simple. I am simply stating the We, as Pashtuns, do not recognize the line. We are 1 people, we share the same blood, culture and history. We won't tolerate a fenced border that will divide families.
Do you mind showing where I proved the above? I never mentioned anything about nationalism wrora. All I said was, we, as Pashtuns, don't recognize the border.
Ameen.

My point by posting the article is as follow:
We are Pashtuns, we do not recognize the border. Plain and simple. No where did I claim to pledge allegiance to ANP, Taliban or any other political movement. I speak in general terms, I did not ask anyone to pledge allegiance to the Taliban for not recognizing the border, nor did I ask people to worship ANP for resisting Musharraf. It's a claim that speaks about the main principle i.e Pashtuns, no matter what kind they come in, oppose this line. If, of course, they are Pashtun to begin with. When I post articles, It does not mean I agree with what it says, sometimes it can be food to chew on, or something we can offer our dos pesos too. My posts and articles have a bigger picture, the picture being dividing Me, and Manzareh is impossible. We share the same blood, history, and culture.

Sorry, I think the way I wrote it did not get my point across. It was not a contention with you, it was with Asfandyaars quote. My point was that he could have used more tact and not associated nationalism with what many pashtuns construe is an anti religious tone. He ought not to have included the Taliban in his criticism and linked them with what he viewed as an evil nexus that sought to divide and weaken Pashtuns. Instead, he ought to have build an inclusive alliance with that 1/3 of the population. He could have proven that it is not merely the secularist that has a monoply on Pashtun ideals... but that even a Pan Islamist could see himself as Pashtun nationalist.

[Toramana]

BarakzaiAbdali, why do you drag religion in this political issue? And the problem is the other way round i.e., whenever nationalists have talked of the rights of minorities, the ruling class along with the allied Islamists has used religion to neutralise it pretending as if something grave is being hatched against Islam.

As for Taleban not accepting the Durand Line, the fact is, the stance was not rooted in any regard for Pashtun unity but in the grander Pan-Mulsim Ummah ideology/agenda which advertantly or inadvertantly furthered the economic, cultural, and political interests/hegemony of a Pakistan with the barycenter in Punjab and the rest of Indo-Aryan polity.

[graveyardofempires]

NO TO THE DURRAND LINE, if there is a pashtunistan, if abolishing the durrand line means being under the government of karzai then hell no, its just as bad as the pakistani currupt dogs in the leading chairs.

dude to hell with karzai do you think he rules Afghanistan?
btw pukhtunkhwa sounds better pashtunistan will exclude the minorities in the area.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

BarakzaiAbdali, why do you drag religion in this political issue? And the problem is the other way round i.e., whenever nationalists have talked of the rights of minorities, the ruling class along with the allied Islamists has used religion to neutralise it pretending as if something grave is being hatched against Islam.

As for Taleban not accepting the Durand Line, the fact is, the stance was not rooted in any regard for Pashtun unity but in the grander Pan-Mulsim Ummah ideology/agenda which advertantly or inadvertantly furthered the economic, cultural, and political interests/hegemony of a Pakistan with the barycenter in Punjab and the rest of Indo-Aryan polity.

I think you mischaracterize class affiliations. Let us look at the nationalists and who they are (I will do this in a way that is not offensive since that seems to dilute the point). Karzai (nationalist/secularist/popalzai and shamizai tribal malik), Asfriab Khattak (nationalist/secularist/local feudal), Asfriab and Wali (nationalist/secularist/utmanzai prosperous family), Achakzais (father and son are both tribal leaders/secularist/nationalist).

Let us look at the composition of the Taliban (Mohammad Omar (village mullah at Deh Rawood), Abdula Salaam Zaeef (son of a farmer), and so on and so forth.

It appears that the ANP movement that straddles the borders is actually led by the Maaliks and Khanaan to sustain feudalism and not necessarily to empower Pushtana.

I would agree that some other parties utilize religion in order to quell Pashtun resistance to mistreatment. I agree that religion should not equal subjugation. If a panjabie or Tajik agrees to respect me and I respect him and we respect our boundaries and trade between our regions for economic prosperity then we are brothers. However, if one of those comes along and starts beating me with a stick and then repeats some foolish commentary about how he has beat me but if I am a good Muslim I ought not to beat him back, I would be idiotic.

I would also say that the quotes Admin Khan provided in the article note the interconnections between the various tribes and how the Taliban visited their members across the border and then made those statements. It appears to be rooted in a common ethnic identity. After all, they did not walk into Islamabad and offer the same statement. Moreover, if they and Islamabad were one and the same on the Durand line issue then they ought to have simply deferred to Islamabad.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

BarakzaiAbdali, why do you drag religion in this political issue? And the problem is the other way round i.e., whenever nationalists have talked of the rights of minorities, the ruling class along with the allied Islamists has used religion to neutralise it pretending as if something grave is being hatched against Islam.

As for Taleban not accepting the Durand Line, the fact is, the stance was not rooted in any regard for Pashtun unity but in the grander Pan-Mulsim Ummah ideology/agenda which advertantly or inadvertantly furthered the economic, cultural, and political interests/hegemony of a Pakistan with the barycenter in Punjab and the rest of Indo-Aryan polity.

Moroever, I think Manzerah wrorre has the more common of the ideologies one encounters in the KP brethren. This once again this is likely a majority view that he holds. I have asked you about a scenario: So you create your Afghan Pashtun army... its amazing well armed and led by a capable leader. It is a viable military foe to the Pakistani Army. It poises itself on the border with KP. What happens next in your ideal world? What do you do when the KP Pashtuns decide in a referendum that they do not want to be a part of this movement? Are you sure that they will greet you with flowers? Are there better ways to entice all parties into the tent? These are important questions and I believe that the answers are simple: 1) "If you build it, they will come"... give them a glimpse of a viable alternative (heck look what Admin Khan did with this forum... he build it and we all came to it because it is well designed) 2) Be cognizant of the cultural/religious sensitivites that could be utilized against you and turn it instead into a strength (When the insults and disparagement of Islam become dirty and nonprogressive, he acts, but does not limit discussion. He maintains his standing by not necessarily taking the religionists side but he does not embrace insulting crticism of Islam either). These actions of his make us feel welcome.

[Toramana]

I think you mischaracterize class affiliations. Let us look at the nationalists and who they are (I will do this in a way that is not offensive since that seems to dilute the point). Karzai (nationalist/secularist/popalzai and shamizai tribal malik), Asfriab Khattak (nationalist/secularist/local feudal), Asfriab and Wali (nationalist/secularist/utmanzai prosperous family), Achakzais (father and son are both tribal leaders/secularist/nationalist).

Let us look at the composition of the Taliban (Mohammad Omar (village mullah at Deh Rawood), Abdula Salaam Zaeef (son of a farmer), and so on and so forth.

It appears that the ANP movement that straddles the borders is actually led by the Maaliks and Khanaan to sustain feudalism and not necessarily to empower Pushtana.

I would agree that some other parties utilize religion in order to quell Pashtun resistance to mistreatment. I agree that religion should not equal subjugation. If a panjabie or Tajik agrees to respect me and I respect him and we respect our boundaries and trade between our regions for economic prosperity then we are brothers. However, if one of those comes along and starts beating me with a stick and then repeats some foolish commentary about how he has beat me but if I am a good Muslim I ought not to beat him back, I would be idiotic.

I would also say that the quotes Admin Khan provided in the article note the interconnections between the various tribes and how the Taliban visited their members across the border and then made those statements. It appears to be rooted in a common ethnic identity. After all, they did not walk into Islamabad and offer the same statement. Moreover, if they and Islamabad were one and the same on the Durand line issue then they ought to have simply deferred to Islamabad.

Barakzai, just like US has no issue with the most loathsome orthodoxy in contemporary times i.e., Saudi Arabia with its draconian laws as long as it fits into its (America's) geopolitics, so also the type of Islam that helps Pakistan extend its influence is in its best interest....That is why Gulbuddin's, Mullah Ummars, Haqqanis, etc. are so popular with Pakistani strategic hardliners whereas Karzai, Asfandiyar, Afrasiab, etc. are unpopular.

But can any religious movement e.g., in Pukhtunkhwa be tolerated by Pakistan that talks of Pashtun unification and self-rule? Even a novice person can understand that no such movement or campaign can be tolerated by Pakistan. If ever any such movement arose, Pakistan would step ahead and qaush it in the first instance in the name of terrorism.

But apart from this, there is another important question i.e., can any movement in Pashtuns launched solely on religious ground achieve what we think to be Pashtun destiney? Never. We all know religion is Mullah's turf. And Arab, Urdu, etc. languages and Arab values also hold primacy for the Mullah compared to Pasho or Pashtun Culture, which are only secondary concerns to him...and so also is the case of politics where the broader Muslim unity under a khalat is the primary goal of Mullahs.

The problem is, any movement launched in the name religion tends to be broader, Pan-Muslim, and trans-national ...as such it enters the realm of impracticality and absurdity...and runs counter to local aspirations which emphasize native rights and indegenous roots/cultures.

[graveyardofempires]

Barakzai, just like US has no issue with the most loathsome orthodoxy in contemporary times i.e., Saudi Arabia with its draconian laws as long as it fits into its (America's) geopolitics, so also the type of Islam that helps Pakistan extend its influence is in its best interest....That is why Gulbuddin's, Mullah Ummars, Haqqanis, etc. are so popular with Pakistani strategic hardliners whereas Karzai, Asfandiyar, Afrasiab, etc. are unpopular.

But can any religious movement e.g., in Pukhtunkhwa be tolerated by Pakistan that talks of Pashtun unification and self-rule? Even a novice person can understand that no such movement or campaign can be tolerated by Pakistan. If ever any such movement, Pakistan would step ahead and qaush it in the name of terrorism.

But apart from this, there is another question i.e., can any movement in Pashtuns launched solely on religious ground achieve what we think to be Pashtun destiney? Never. We all know religion is Mullah's turf. And Arab, Urdu, etc. languages and Arab values also hold primacy for the Mullah compared to Pasho or Pashtun Culture, which are his secondary concerns ...and so also is the case of broader Muslim unity under a khalat, which is primary political goal of Mullahs.

The problem is any movement launched in the name religion tends to be broader, Pan-Muslim, and trans-national ...as such it enters the realm of impracticality and absurdity...and runs counter to local aspirations which emphasize native rights and indegenous cultures.

you write too much and i think everyone knows that you hate islam and trying to cover it with things such as imposing arab nationalism,pashto this and blablabla

Islam first than pashto and if elements within our culture doesnt go according to than we need to change.

[Toramana]

Moreover, Asfandiyar, etc. being khan and so pursuing only feudal interests is not true. If such were the case i.e. if they were pursuing narrow feudal interests, who could've offered them more than the ruling class of Pakistan( rooted in feudalism and authoritarian mindset) and its chief patron i.e., the US, especially during the Cold War era?

Why then did they faced persecution at the hands of Pakistanis if their motives were class-based ? Moreover, in the same breath you blame them to be socialist and leftitsts (e.g. Achakzai that you have blamed to be socialist or having communistic leanings).

[Toramana]

you write too much and i think everyone knows that you hate islam and trying to cover it with things such as imposing arab nationalism,pashto this and blablabla

Islam first than pashto and if elements within our culture doesnt go according to than we need to change.

Then go to some utopian Muslim Khalat and live there. Islam is part of Pashtun Culture not the vice-versa. So Pashtun identity is primary for Pashtuns ---Islam is important for Pashtuns but in the sense of spirituality, social stability, etc. not in the sense of economy or politics.

It is not that I am against Islam. It is that you have been completly brainwashed in the name of Islam and so are mislead.

[graveyardofempires]

Then go to some utopian Muslim Khalat and live there. Islam is part of Pashtun Culture not the vice-versa. So Pashtun identity is primary for Pashtuns ---Islam is important for Pashtuns but in the sense of spirituality, social stability, etc. not in the sense of economy or politics.

It is not that I am against Islam. It is that you have been completly brainwashed in the name of Islam and so are mislead.

i feel sorry that you think that way,and think that way about me.

so what is the sense of economy and politics for pashtuns?
let me guess taking interest should be norm according to you and we should all be seculers so that we have the right to bash muslims.

please have some respect for pashtuns cuz pashtuns means muslims.

[Michin Khel]

khaana za da pashtunkhwa yamm woss tsa waee?

You are canadian.
you are like those rohilla pathans of india who are originally from yousafzai valley.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

You are canadian.
you are like those rohilla pathans of india who are originally from yousafzai valley.

Khaana I moved here for awhile to study and all of a sudden you compare me with a rohilla lolzz. I am more Pashtun than you will ever be, don't worry. Zamaa dalta 7 kaala shuwee dee ao bya ham watan saraa tha na zyaath za walaarr yamm. Tha kala yaw gott kalaa ball gott. Give this rohilla example to others. I know why you do this, btw, because you have no sensible argument to counter anyone so you use this as means to justify your own lame stance. It is common thing.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Moreover, Asfandiyar, etc. being khan and so pursuing only feudal interests is not true. If such were the case i.e. if they were pursuing narrow feudal interests, who could've offered them more than the ruling class of Pakistan( rooted in feudalism and authoritarian mindset) and its chief patron i.e., the US, especially during the Cold War era?

Why then did they faced persecution at the hands of Pakistanis if their motives were class-based ? Moreover, in the same breath you blame them to be socialist and leftitsts (e.g. Achakzai that you have blamed to be socialist or having communistic leanings).

According to wikileaks documents you are wrong, Asfandiar was offered the presidential post. They are a part of "the machine." Achakzai and his father are basically of the same cloth as Zul Fikar Bhutto. I did not know much about the latter until I recently read Fatima Bhutto's book, Songs of Blood and Sword. Both are/were a part of the oligarchy, but seek to sustain it by painting themselves as enlightened men descending from their high rank to break the class system. Instead, they recognize that their and their children's inability to work hard and succeed on merit alone has doomed them to be feudals for survival. Therefore, they rail against the system in public, but in private provide it its foundation.

[graveyardofempires]

According to wikileaks documents you are wrong, Asfandiar was offered the presidential post. They are a part of "the machine." Achakzai and his father are basically of the same cloth as Zul Fikar Bhutto. I did not know much about the latter until I recently read Fatima Bhutto's book, Songs of Blood and Sword. Both are/were a part of the oligarchy, but seek to sustain it by painting themselves as enlightened men descending from their high rank to break the class system. Instead, they recognize that their and their children's inability to work hard and succeed on merit alone has doomed them to be feudals for survival. Therefore, they rail against the system in public, but in private provide it its foundation.

wikileaks?fatima bhutto? what nice sources you got bro

but i cant blame you bro,we pashtuns are medialess.

[Michin Khel]

@Bls
Wrora stick strongely to pashtuniyat in canada as your future decendants have high chances of losing pashto as rohilla pathans lost it in india.
Also you are a canadian citizen so be a proud canadian as well as proud pashtun.
Prince regards