Afghan US Funded Hospitals Likely Unsustainable

[BarakzaiAbdali]

http://www.law360.com/articles/43723...ainable-report

US-Funded Afghan Hospitals May Not Be Sustainable: Report

Share us on:TwitterFacebookLinkedInBy Dietrich Knauth
Law360, New York (April 30, 2013, 5:54 PM ET) -- The Special Inspector General For Afghanistan Reconstruction reported Tuesday that two new U.S.-funded hospitals costing $18.5 million may be too large and expensive for the Afghan government to operate and staff after U.S. forces leave.

Sustainability has long been a concern for rebuilding projects in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Wartime Contracting Commission reported in 2011 that U.S.-contracted projects could come to nothing if host governments cannot or will not commit the funds, staff and expertise to operate and maintain them, and the recently closed office of the

Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction

has advocated for a new federal agency to better coordinate rebuilding contracts with the U.S. Departments of Defense and State and the U.S.

Agency for International Development

.

SIGAR's Tuesday report found that USAID began contracts to build the two hospitals, Gardez in Paktia province and Khair Khot in Paktika province, before design plans were finalized with the Afghan Ministry of Public Health, leading to the creation of larger facilities than the local government can sustain.

“USAID’s $18.5 million investment in these new hospitals may not be the most economical and practical use of these funds,” the report said. “USAID’s late coordination resulted in the construction of facilities that are larger — Gardez hospital is 12 times larger than the facility being replaced — than can be sustained, and increased estimated operating costs for the new facilities that are disproportionate to current costs.”

The annual operating costs of the new hospitals, including costs to staff, heat and fuel the facilities, could be five times more than the annual operating costs for the hospitals they are replacing, SIGAR said. While the existing Gardez hospital costs $611,000 annually, USAID estimates that annual fuel costs alone for the new hospital could be as much as $3.2 million, the report found.

The inspector general also found that the provincial hospitals were having difficulty recruiting and retaining key medical positions, a problem that extends to three other facilities reviews by SIGAR. Only one of the five provincial hospitals has met the minimum staffing standards for the five key positions reviewed, and none of the hospitals met the advised staffing standards, except for the general practitioner and pediatrician positions. Three of the five hospitals had no anesthesiologist, one had no pediatrician and two had no ob-gyns, according to SIGAR.

“Ministry of Public Health contracts require [nongovernmental organizations partnering with USAID] to implement the full range of health care services — including staffing — at hospitals during the life of the contract,” SIGAR found.

“However, NGO officials stated that the limited availability of doctors in Afghanistan, combined with the low pay for doctors, makes it difficult for them to staff key positions at provincial hospitals.”

USAID defended its work, saying its contributions had helped modernize Afghanistan's health system and drive a 20-year increase in the life expectancy in Afghanistan over the past decade. The agency disagreed with the SIGAR report, which it said was too narrowly focused, inaccurate and misleading in its characterization of the coordination between USAID and the Ministry of Public Health.

"The primary finding, that these two hospitals are unsustainable, is incorrect. MOPH has provided written assurance it will provide funding for the hospitals," USAID said in comments to SIGAR. “USAID takes [the] sustainability of our projects very seriously and [operation and maintenance] planning is built into our projects.

USAID pointed out that the Ministry of Public Health is eligible get additional funding from the Afghanistan Reconstruction Trust Fund, which provides $1.5 in matching funds for every dollar spent by the Afghan government for eligible projects. But SIGAR said that those funds were far from assured.

“MOPH is simply one of many Afghan ministries eligible to apply for such funding and there is no guarantee that any such funding will be provided to MOPH programs,” SIGAR said.

Many in Congress have grown more vocal in their opposition to funding rebuilding projects, and sustainability is a key concern for some, including Senator Claire McCaskill, D-Mo., who chairs the Senate Subcommittee on Financial and Contracting Oversight. McCaskill offered an amendment to Senate's March budget resolution currently under consideration that would strip funding for large-scale infrastructure projects in Afghanistan and redirect those resources for use in construction of roads and bridges in the U.S.

"We're borrowing money to build projects halfway around the world in Afghanistan — projects that can't be secured or maintained," McCaskill said on March 22. "We should take this money and put it into construction and repair of roads and bridges right here at home."

--Editing by Elizabeth Bowen.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

USAID department is shaking in its boots now that Sopko, an honest man is calling out both the expat technocrat emigres trying to rip of Americans and the American Firms ripping of Americans.

Best part of the article is regarding McCaskill's bill in congress:

"Many in Congress have grown more vocal in their opposition to funding rebuilding projects, and sustainability is a key concern for some, including Senator Claire McCaskill, D-Mo., who chairs the Senate Subcommittee on Financial and Contracting Oversight. McCaskill offered an amendment to Senate's March budget resolution currently under consideration that would strip funding for large-scale infrastructure projects in Afghanistan and redirect those resources for use in construction of roads and bridges in the U.S.

"We're borrowing money to build projects halfway around the world in Afghanistan — projects that can't be secured or maintained," McCaskill said on March 22. "We should take this money and put it into construction and repair of roads and bridges right here at home."

If this bill passes, it will be good for both the American people and the Afghans, removing another incentive to rob both peoples for the sake of the few and the lazy.

[Admin Khan]

USAID department is shaking in its boots now that Sopko, an honest man is calling out both the expat technocrat emigres trying to rip of Americans and the American Firms ripping of Americans.

Best part of the article is regarding McCaskill's bill in congress:

"Many in Congress have grown more vocal in their opposition to funding rebuilding projects, and sustainability is a key concern for some, including Senator Claire McCaskill, D-Mo., who chairs the Senate Subcommittee on Financial and Contracting Oversight. McCaskill offered an amendment to Senate's March budget resolution currently under consideration that would strip funding for large-scale infrastructure projects in Afghanistan and redirect those resources for use in construction of roads and bridges in the U.S.

"We're borrowing money to build projects halfway around the world in Afghanistan — projects that can't be secured or maintained," McCaskill said on March 22. "We should take this money and put it into construction and repair of roads and bridges right here at home."

If this bill passes, it will be good for both the American people and the Afghans, removing another incentive to rob both peoples for the sake of the few and the lazy.

Recognize that any development is better than no development, what more do you expect from non-Afghans? For true development to occur, it must be Afghan-led, Afghan-driven, Afghan-owned. It is silly, dare I say funny, and easy for you and I to criticize things, especially when we have received top-notch degrees and live cozy lives, but we must recognize progress is not easy, and just the fact that the physical INFRASTRUCTURE for the hospital is built, is good enough[knowing the backgrounds], as opposed to have no infrastructure. I know in Kandahar City alone, many private Hospitals have been built, in the post-Taliban era, so while they might not be MassGens, or while funds are being misappropriated, it is better than nothing for a war-torn country. The same goes for universities, Kabul is now flooded with Polytechniques, some which actually offer decent Computer Science curriculums, per me analyzing them. We can tell by the newly formed Afghan Cyber Army, that there has been some progress there as well. The only way Afghanistan will have sustainable, non-corrupted development, is if Afghans own the process and drop their corrupt mindsets. Knowing how uneducated, and illiterate Afghans are, aside from being stuck in a God knows what century, this aforementioned process might take a century or so. Even in the Taliban era, corruption existed, even in the superpower USA, corruption exists.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Recognize that any development is better than no development, what more do you expect from non-Afghans?

That is the issue though. Why should any expectation exist at all from a non Afghan? How did that expectation end up for native americans and other nations that expected others to build up infrastructure for them. The assumption emigre expats make is that the tradeoff is simply bases and thats it. I would counter that the loss of autonomy is the actual tradeoff. If the Afghan people decide a punishment or way of governance that suits them or decide to have relations with nations that suit their purposes - they have ceded autonomy in order to have military industry complex theives build some micky mouse buildings that were built with funds stolen from the American people in order to hoist governance on the Afghan people.

For true development to occur, it must be Afghan-led, Afghan-driven, Afghan-owned. It is silly, dare I say funny, and easy for you and I to criticize things, especially when we have received top-notch degrees and live cozy lives, but we must recognize progress is not easy, and just the fact that the physical INFRASTRUCTURE for the hospital is built, is good enough[knowing the backgrounds], as opposed to have no infrastructure.

As per above, Daud and predecessors had the same thought processes. Invite the Soviets in have them build some hospitals and send some lab beakers and russian doctors and bam, infrastructure with no strings attached.

Making deals without understanding the principle of what is being compromised should be ardently criticized especially when its unrepresentative expats like Karzai signing on the dotted line.

It is precisely because we are raised in an autonomous nation and have seen the idiocy of many expats that pointing out their errors is a first and foremost duty to ensure their destructive pattern of behavior doesnt further endanger America or Afghanistan.

I know in Kandahar City alone, many private Hospitals have been built, in the post-Taliban era, so while they might not be MassGens, or while funds are being misappropriated, it is better than nothing for a war-torn country.

Unless it relegates their autonomy to nonexistent. Its the same principle on which Pakistan's founders and tribal chief comprimisers built their nation. We can all see how that worked out.

The same goes for universities, Kabul is now flooded with Polytechniques, some which actually offer decent Computer Science curriculums, per me analyzing them. We can tell by the newly formed Afghan Cyber Army, that there has been some progress there as well. The only way Afghanistan will have sustainable, non-corrupted development, is if Afghans own the process and drop their corrupt mindsets.Knowing how uneducated, and illiterate Afghans are, aside from being stuck in a God knows what century, this aforementioned process might take a century or so.

Its not the illiterate rural Afghan corrupting the process. Mahmud Karzai for instance, is not an illiterate Afghan. He believes himself a fine connoisseur of cuisine and an educated literate man. Yet his thievery in Kabul is legendary.

Even in the Taliban era, corruption existed, even in the superpower USA, corruption exists.

I cant comment on the Taliban era, but the Americans never traded true independence (i.e. allowing the Chinese or Russians to build bases on their soil - or the brits for that matter) for goodies that are short term gains.

They wouldnt even allow an Arab Kingdom to man their ports in the late 90s for shipping purposes.

Now that is a commendable autonomous nation that has put in sweat, blood, and tears and committed 400 years to develop their hewad. And usually that is how great nations develop and lead.

[Admin Khan]

That is the issue though. Why should any expectation exist at all from a non Afghan? How did that expectation end up for native americans and other nations that expected others to build up infrastructure for them. The assumption emigre expats make is that the tradeoff is simply bases and thats it. I would counter that the loss of autonomy is the actual tradeoff. If the Afghan people decide a punishment or way of governance that suits them or decide to have relations with nations that suit their purposes - they have ceded autonomy in order to have military industry complex theives build some micky mouse buildings that were built with funds stolen from the American people in order to hoist governance on the Afghan people.
Fact of the matter is common sense, and predicate logic. NATO has already invaded the country, they have already decided that they are leaving, knowing that they are leaving, any developments, prior to them leaving, for the least, should be embraced knowing how unjust the invasion of a country is. I said this once, and I'll say it again, once another nation has military bases in your country, say Bye-Bye to sovereignty. For the very same reason, using the aforementioned logical principle, I don't consider Germany, Pakistan, Korea to be sovereign. I still present my question to you, which is still unanswered, in a detailed fashion, what can Afghanistan as a nation do right now to be on track for development. We can criticize all we want, but not having a solution makes our points moot.

As per above, Daud and predecessors had the same thought processes. Invite the Soviets in have them build some hospitals and send some lab beakers and russian doctors and bam, infrastructure with no strings attached.
Like I told Maulik, no nation builds you infrastructure without strings attached. You need to be in a position of power to have development, and unfortunately Afghanistan has no bargaining power what so ever. We have corrupt officials running the country, however, recognize that with these corrupt officials, Afghanistan has made some slight progress in various factors. Whether or not the Taliban would have been able to make the same progress is debatable(considering the Taliban had sanctions, and a plethora of other variables as well), but for the most part the country has made progress since 2001. Facts are facts, and Afghanistan simply has no choice in this hungry region.

Making deals without understanding the principle of what is being compromised should be ardently criticized especially when its unrepresentative expats like Karzai signing on the dotted line.
As corrupt as the officials are, I think they do understand what they are signing, and lets not paint all folks with the same brush. There exists competent folks in these Jirgas that truly want development, and work hard daily[Think Ramzan Bashardost], however, the point of frustration is knowing the fact that the USA installed war-lords to begin with, now that's a point of matter which bugs me till this day. How can you expect significant progress when you, yourself, installed war-lords, and have the people busy removing the very warlords you installed? That's not to say those hard-working folks haven't made progress in the past decade.

It is precisely because we are raised in an autonomous nation and have seen the idiocy of many expats that pointing out their errors is a first and foremost duty to ensure their destructive pattern of behavior doesnt further endanger America or Afghanistan.

If a hospital is being built, at least it is being built on Afghan soil, and even when NATO leaves, that hospital will remain for the future generation of Afghans. The damage is already done, the nation is already invaded, if before they leave they want to build you a $5billion University, its the least they should do for all the innocent folks they killed. Recognize that you can not expect anything sincerely from a foreigner, and overall this is just a huge mess without any plausible solution. Unfortunately knowing how the nation is a century behind others in nearly every major sector, illiterate and uneducated as it comes, I don't understand how you expect to develop the country without international assistance, which in turn comes with 'hidden benefits'. If you have an alternative way, please share your thoughts/comments.


Its not the illiterate rural Afghan corrupting the process. Mahmud Karzai for instance, is not an illiterate Afghan. He believes himself a fine connoisseur of cuisine and an educated literate man. Yet his thievery in Kabul is legendary.

If he is a thief, then he is not educated in my eyes. Putting his clan aside, the overwhelming majority of Afghanistan nation is both illiterate and uneducated, if you think that doesn't make a difference in the current Afghan political situation, then I don't know what to tell you. The nation is ran by folks who can't even write their name in English, so what more do you expect? Any positive developments for Afghans, living in Afghanistan, should be embraced. Expecting better, or criticizing thousands of miles away, and expecting educated acts from uneducated folks is illogical unfortunately. Afghanistan had a chance to avoid scenarios like today, but chose not too; not it will have to pay the price like other nations across the world. Romanticizing the future, bringing forward fantasy solutions, is easy to do, and you and I can do it all day, but we must come up with a proposal that matches the ground realities, and takes into consideration the various variables and strategic interests of global powers. If you come up with a solution that does not make the USA happy, you need to explain what you will do in retaliation. Saying kick out every American is easy, but giving a cohesive solution is no easy task. Think about what I said carefully, and deeply, and don't mind my devils advocate; I do it with folks to see if they can come up with a proposal I haven't thought of, which I could perhaps then scrutinize. I have yet to see your proposal, but I have seen some baseless criticisms.

I cant comment on the Taliban era, but the Americans never traded true independence (i.e. allowing the Chinese or Russians to build bases on their soil - or the brits for that matter) for goodies that are short term gains.
These are two separate eras, and comparing them is impossible, you can never compare two separate nations, that have entirely different dynamics. The USA is unique in every sense, and today we see why it is unique when it has 700 military bases all over the world, including some in the European superpower -- Germany. Put it short, it even has Europe's superpower by the nuts.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

That is the issue though. Why should any expectation exist at all from a non Afghan? How did that expectation end up for native americans and other nations that expected others to build up infrastructure for them. The assumption emigre expats make is that the tradeoff is simply bases and thats it. I would counter that the loss of autonomy is the actual tradeoff. If the Afghan people decide a punishment or way of governance that suits them or decide to have relations with nations that suit their purposes - they have ceded autonomy in order to have military industry complex theives build some micky mouse buildings that were built with funds stolen from the American people in order to hoist governance on the Afghan people.
Fact of the matter is common sense, and predicate logic. NATO has already invaded the country, they have already decided that they are leaving, knowing that they are leaving, any developments, prior to them leaving, for the least, should be embraced knowing how unjust the invasion of a country is.

I dont think thats truly the case though. Karzai and those elites have made a deal with the detached elites of NATO to host multiple sovereignty denying bases. Thats not leaving - thats staying.

I said this once, and I'll say it again, once another nation has military bases in your country, say Bye-Bye to sovereignty. For the very same reason, using the aforementioned logical principle, I don't consider Germany, Pakistan, Korea to be sovereign. I still present my question to you, which is still unanswered, in a detailed fashion, what can Afghanistan as a nation do right now to be on track for development.

I have stated a plan forward in my discussions with Comrade and under my discussion for a federated central asia in that democracy thread. I have also detailed many cross border initiatives. But the key thing to get the nation on track has nothing to do with building hospitals or shoe stores. Asking for that is like a 36 month pregnant lady asking for how to send her fetus to harvard. First give birth lady, then understand the rest takes time and hard effort.

We can criticize all we want, but not having a solution makes our points moot.

But there is a solution and it involves the expatriots either obeying the will of the people or leaving empty handed and Afghanistan being granted complete autonomy with a government that truly represents it after it deals with its own civil internal conflict. Every great nation, including the US was born in such turmoil.

As per above, Daud and predecessors had the same thought processes. Invite the Soviets in have them build some hospitals and send some lab beakers and russian doctors and bam, infrastructure with no strings attached.
Like I told Maulik, no nation builds you infrastructure without strings attached. You need to be in a position of power to have development, and unfortunately Afghanistan has no bargaining power what so ever.

It doesnt need bargaining power. It needs independence and it has and can secure this. As should all of the istan states and then they should pool resources and not be set off against one another.

We have corrupt officials running the country, however, recognize that with these corrupt officials, Afghanistan has made some slight progress in various factors.

I would say these officials acting as prostitutes is hardly progress. Even a hollywood harlot can rake in a 1000 bucks if she meets Hugh Grant - but that doesnt mean shes truly better off. Thats what these guys do day in and day out to their own nation.

Whether or not the Taliban would have been able to make the same progress is debatable(considering the Taliban had sanctions, and a plethora of other variables as well),

Thats the whole point. The plan you are proposing gaurantees perpetual slavery and yoke. It means that one forever committs all the region (even beyond Afghanistan) toward playing by IMF rules and being divided as Brzenziski and his cohorts planned. No autonomous government should ever worry about the threat of sanctions. Rather, if these regions pull together and understand that their cultural and religious mores supercede minor differences they can be a powerful federation. If they are told that they are sanctioned they can laugh it off and say "you arent going to send us batteries and some goodies etc etc, well guess what we have the ability to make our own."

but for the most part the country has made progress since 2001. Facts are facts, and Afghanistan simply has no choice in this hungry region.

Because fools like Zahir and daud and Bhutto and others decided what their people never did: to be ardent enemies. I would rather agree with Mr. Sopko - a few schools and hospitals are not progress, they are the semblance of progress and the true measurables break down to high attrition and even higher corruption.

Making deals without understanding the principle of what is being compromised should be ardently criticized especially when its unrepresentative expats like Karzai signing on the dotted line.
As corrupt as the officials are, I think they do understand what they are signing, and lets not paint all folks with the same brush.

How can one not when even the "less corrupt" are willing to call that horrible individual "Mr. President." Truly principled folks would call him what he is, which is a rented donkey.

There exists competent folks in these Jirgas that truly want development, and work hard daily[Think Ramzan Bashardost], however, the point of frustration is knowing the fact that the USA installed war-lords to begin with, now that's a point of matter which bugs me till this day. How can you expect significant progress when you, yourself, installed war-lords, and have the people busy removing the very warlords you installed? That's not to say those hard-working folks haven't made progress in the past decade.

It is precisely because we are raised in an autonomous nation and have seen the idiocy of many expats that pointing out their errors is a first and foremost duty to ensure their destructive pattern of behavior doesnt further endanger America or Afghanistan.

If a hospital is being built, at least it is being built on Afghan soil, and even when NATO leaves, that hospital will remain for the future generation of Afghans.

That still doesnt justify the trade off these men are making on behalf of the people.

The damage is already done, the nation is already invaded, if before they leave they want to build you a $5billion University, its the least they should do for all the innocent folks they killed.

I really cannot blame them for innocent folks being killed at all. Rather the blame falls squarely on Hamida who cannot even enforce her writ beyond Kabul's gates but wants us all to assume so much. Has he flown across the world and as passionately dealt with these atrocities and drawn lines in the sand to the degree that he does for these hollow buildings? Once he does that and once he is able to make sure Zak Kandahari is in custody by Afghans and that Sargeant Bales is prosecuted by Afghans - thats when I wil say a 5 billion doller building is worth it.

Recognize that you can not expect anything sincerely from a foreigner, and overall this is just a huge mess without any plausible solution. Unfortunately knowing how the nation is a century behind others in nearly every major sector, illiterate and uneducated as it comes, I don't understand how you expect to develop the country without international assistance, which in turn comes with 'hidden benefits'.

Because far sighted people should never expect that. Rather they should look at this as the beginning of a nearly 400 to 500 year long endeavor to rebuild on their own and in a federated union that would prosper as opposed to the current istan design that gaurantees perpetual neighbor driven warfare and turmoil with outsiders supplying both sides of the conflict. The outsider sits back and laughs and calls these sides barbarians as they massacre eachother.

If you have an alternative way, please share your thoughts/comments

As per above and as per the multiple threads with detailed notions of how to integrate the istan states into a regional power.

.

x

[Admin Khan]

I dont think thats truly the case though. Karzai and those elites have made a deal with the detached elites of NATO to host multiple sovereignty denying bases. Thats not leaving - thats staying.
These are speculations, that the U.S denied, so at this point -- only time will tell.


I have stated a plan forward in my discussions with Comrade and under my discussion for a federated central asia in that democracy thread. I have also detailed many cross border initiatives. But the key thing to get the nation on track has nothing to do with building hospitals or shoe stores. Asking for that is like a 36 month pregnant lady asking for how to send her fetus to harvard. First give birth lady, then understand the rest takes time and hard effort.
I honestly can't go over your 4,000 posts hoping to put the dots together in your proposal, so unfortunately we are not making progress here; Especially if you expect me to refer to previous threads and somehow make them relate to our current theme using my own imagination. Saying that XYZ will happen, without explaining how you will do XYZ knowing ABC is right over your shoulder is counter-productive; to say the least. So wrestle harder mashra.

But there is a solution and it involves the expatriots either obeying the will of the people or leaving empty handed and Afghanistan being granted complete autonomy with a government that truly represents it after it deals with its own civil internal conflict. Every great nation, including the US was born in such turmoil.
This sounds great, you and I can both dance to this statement all day and night, and romanticize it for years to come, but my question to you, which remains is: How?
Clearly we are on the same boat here, but our opinion is moot if we can't give a solution. Claiming to use a Hashtable for an algorithmic problem, without explaining how the Hashtable will help the algorithm, renders your approach to the algorithm useless, for all we know a Tree or a Graph was the proper data structure.


Thats the whole point. The plan you are proposing gaurantees perpetual slavery and yoke. It means that one forever committs all the region (even beyond Afghanistan) toward playing by IMF rules and being divided as Brzenziski and his cohorts planned. No autonomous government should ever worry about the threat of sanctions. Rather, if these regions pull together and understand that their cultural and religious mores supercede minor differences they can be a powerful federation. If they are told that they are sanctioned they can laugh it off and say "you arent going to send us batteries and some goodies etc etc, well guess what we have the ability to make our own."
I don't understand which plan you are referring to. Let it be clear, I have proposed *no plan*. I am asking you to propose a plan.


How can one not when even the "less corrupt" are willing to call that horrible individual "Mr. President." Truly principled folks would call him what he is, which is a rented donkey.
Calling him a rented donkey, implies you have an alternative path and solution to this problem as a whole, perhaps Ramzan Bashardost can NOT fathom a plan, knowing the variables at stake, and does it out of spite? Better yet, hopes to democratically replace the man and conduct some changes. Fact of the matter is, there has yet to be a proper alternative set-out, which will assure some sort of development without Afghanistan's sovereignty being compromised.


Because far sighted people should never expect that. Rather they should look at this as the beginning of a nearly 400 to 500 year long endeavor to rebuild on their own and in a federated union that would prosper as opposed to the current istan design that gaurantees perpetual neighbor driven warfare and turmoil with outsiders supplying both sides of the conflict. The outsider sits back and laughs and calls these sides barbarians as they massacre eachother.
Where do you begin? What do you begin with? Perhaps we are sleepy here, but recognize the obvious -- I am asking you for solution. I can write you an essay criticizing Shujayee, and Zak Kandahari as well; that's not helping. I can also write you a book criticizing Karzai, let's focus on the future and bring forward a proposal, neatly in a thread that can serve as an action plan, archived for millions to see, including Afghans back home. So let's try this again.


As per above and as per the multiple threads with detailed notions of how to integrate the istan states into a regional power.

I repeat again. With respect to ground realities, and no fantasies, How?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

That is the issue though. Why should any expectation exist at all from a non Afghan? How did that expectation end up for native americans and other nations that expected others to build up infrastructure for them. The assumption emigre expats make is that the tradeoff is simply bases and thats it. I would counter that the loss of autonomy is the actual tradeoff. If the Afghan people decide a punishment or way of governance that suits them or decide to have relations with nations that suit their purposes - they have ceded autonomy in order to have military industry complex theives build some micky mouse buildings that were built with funds stolen from the American people in order to hoist governance on the Afghan people.
Fact of the matter is common sense, and predicate logic. NATO has already invaded the country, they have already decided that they are leaving, knowing that they are leaving, any developments, prior to them leaving, for the least, should be embraced knowing how unjust the invasion of a country is. I said this once, and I'll say it again, once another nation has military bases in your country, say Bye-Bye to sovereignty. For the very same reason, using the aforementioned logical principle, I don't consider Germany, Pakistan, Korea to be sovereign. I still present my question to you, which is still unanswered, in a detailed fashion, what can Afghanistan as a nation do right now to be on track for development. We can criticize all we want, but not having a solution makes our points moot.

As per above, Daud and predecessors had the same thought processes. Invite the Soviets in have them build some hospitals and send some lab beakers and russian doctors and bam, infrastructure with no strings attached.
Like I told Maulik, no nation builds you infrastructure without strings attached. You need to be in a position of power to have development, and unfortunately Afghanistan has no bargaining power what so ever. We have corrupt officials running the country, however, recognize that with these corrupt officials, Afghanistan has made some slight progress in various factors. Whether or not the Taliban would have been able to make the same progress is debatable(considering the Taliban had sanctions, and a plethora of other variables as well), but for the most part the country has made progress since 2001. Facts are facts, and Afghanistan simply has no choice in this hungry region.

Making deals without understanding the principle of what is being compromised should be ardently criticized especially when its unrepresentative expats like Karzai signing on the dotted line.
As corrupt as the officials are, I think they do understand what they are signing, and lets not paint all folks with the same brush. There exists competent folks in these Jirgas that truly want development, and work hard daily[Think Ramzan Bashardost], however, the point of frustration is knowing the fact that the USA installed war-lords to begin with, now that's a point of matter which bugs me till this day. How can you expect significant progress when you, yourself, installed war-lords, and have the people busy removing the very warlords you installed? That's not to say those hard-working folks haven't made progress in the past decade.

It is precisely because we are raised in an autonomous nation and have seen the idiocy of many expats that pointing out their errors is a first and foremost duty to ensure their destructive pattern of behavior doesnt further endanger America or Afghanistan.

If a hospital is being built, at least it is being built on Afghan soil, and even when NATO leaves, that hospital will remain for the future generation of Afghans. The damage is already done, the nation is already invaded, if before they leave they want to build you a $5billion University, its the least they should do for all the innocent folks they killed. Recognize that you can not expect anything sincerely from a foreigner, and overall this is just a huge mess without any plausible solution. Unfortunately knowing how the nation is a century behind others in nearly every major sector, illiterate and uneducated as it comes, I don't understand how you expect to develop the country without international assistance, which in turn comes with 'hidden benefits'. If you have an alternative way, please share your thoughts/comments.


Its not the illiterate rural Afghan corrupting the process. Mahmud Karzai for instance, is not an illiterate Afghan. He believes himself a fine connoisseur of cuisine and an educated literate man. Yet his thievery in Kabul is legendary.

If he is a thief, then he is not educated in my eyes. Putting his clan aside, the overwhelming majority of Afghanistan nation is both illiterate and uneducated, if you think that doesn't make a difference in the current Afghan political situation, then I don't know what to tell you. The nation is ran by folks who can't even write their name in English, so what more do you expect? Any positive developments for Afghans, living in Afghanistan, should be embraced. Expecting better, or criticizing thousands of miles away, and expecting educated acts from uneducated folks is illogical unfortunately. Afghanistan had a chance to avoid scenarios like today, but chose not too; not it will have to pay the price like other nations across the world. Romanticizing the future, bringing forward fantasy solutions, is easy to do, and you and I can do it all day, but we must come up with a proposal that matches the ground realities, and takes into consideration the various variables and strategic interests of global powers. If you come up with a solution that does not make the USA happy, you need to explain what you will do in retaliation. Saying kick out every American is easy, but giving a cohesive solution is no easy task. Think about what I said carefully, and deeply, and don't mind my devils advocate; I do it with folks to see if they can come up with a proposal I haven't thought of, which I could perhaps then scrutinize. I have yet to see your proposal, but I have seen some baseless criticisms.

I cant comment on the Taliban era, but the Americans never traded true independence (i.e. allowing the Chinese or Russians to build bases on their soil - or the brits for that matter) for goodies that are short term gains.
These are two separate eras, and comparing them is impossible, you can never compare two separate nations, that have entirely different dynamics. The USA is unique in every sense, and today we see why it is unique when it has 700 military bases all over the world, including some in the European superpower -- Germany. Put it short, it even has Europe's superpower by the nuts.

Basically Admin once I see one of those expats taking the life of a man as seriously as they do trade deals.. and making the same sacrifices to secure the life of even a single Afghan as if it were more precious than the most precious commodity or a mountain of gold, then I will say we have an autonomous government.

These men consider themselves our new founding fathers. Fathers never tell their kids that their kids are tradable or less precious if the father can get a better job by dumping one of them off or not caring about them.

Because once they consider an Afghan life more valuable than an inanimate object - they will act for their people as they would their own son or daughter.

This man:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/02/wo...stan.html?_r=0

Should not depend on the NY Times to bring him justice or to make his cause known to the world. This man deserves an autonomous government and President that values its peoples safety and sanctity more than a billion dollar polytechnic institute.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

That is the issue though. Why should any expectation exist at all from a non Afghan? How did that expectation end up for native americans and other nations that expected others to build up infrastructure for them. The assumption emigre expats make is that the tradeoff is simply bases and thats it. I would counter that the loss of autonomy is the actual tradeoff. If the Afghan people decide a punishment or way of governance that suits them or decide to have relations with nations that suit their purposes - they have ceded autonomy in order to have military industry complex theives build some micky mouse buildings that were built with funds stolen from the American people in order to hoist governance on the Afghan people.
Fact of the matter is common sense, and predicate logic. NATO has already invaded the country, they have already decided that they are leaving, knowing that they are leaving, any developments, prior to them leaving, for the least, should be embraced knowing how unjust the invasion of a country is. I said this once, and I'll say it again, once another nation has military bases in your country, say Bye-Bye to sovereignty. For the very same reason, using the aforementioned logical principle, I don't consider Germany, Pakistan, Korea to be sovereign. I still present my question to you, which is still unanswered, in a detailed fashion, what can Afghanistan as a nation do right now to be on track for development. We can criticize all we want, but not having a solution makes our points moot.

As per above, Daud and predecessors had the same thought processes. Invite the Soviets in have them build some hospitals and send some lab beakers and russian doctors and bam, infrastructure with no strings attached.
Like I told Maulik, no nation builds you infrastructure without strings attached. You need to be in a position of power to have development, and unfortunately Afghanistan has no bargaining power what so ever. We have corrupt officials running the country, however, recognize that with these corrupt officials, Afghanistan has made some slight progress in various factors. Whether or not the Taliban would have been able to make the same progress is debatable(considering the Taliban had sanctions, and a plethora of other variables as well), but for the most part the country has made progress since 2001. Facts are facts, and Afghanistan simply has no choice in this hungry region.

Making deals without understanding the principle of what is being compromised should be ardently criticized especially when its unrepresentative expats like Karzai signing on the dotted line.
As corrupt as the officials are, I think they do understand what they are signing, and lets not paint all folks with the same brush. There exists competent folks in these Jirgas that truly want development, and work hard daily[Think Ramzan Bashardost], however, the point of frustration is knowing the fact that the USA installed war-lords to begin with, now that's a point of matter which bugs me till this day. How can you expect significant progress when you, yourself, installed war-lords, and have the people busy removing the very warlords you installed? That's not to say those hard-working folks haven't made progress in the past decade.

It is precisely because we are raised in an autonomous nation and have seen the idiocy of many expats that pointing out their errors is a first and foremost duty to ensure their destructive pattern of behavior doesnt further endanger America or Afghanistan.

If a hospital is being built, at least it is being built on Afghan soil, and even when NATO leaves, that hospital will remain for the future generation of Afghans. The damage is already done, the nation is already invaded, if before they leave they want to build you a $5billion University, its the least they should do for all the innocent folks they killed. Recognize that you can not expect anything sincerely from a foreigner, and overall this is just a huge mess without any plausible solution. Unfortunately knowing how the nation is a century behind others in nearly every major sector, illiterate and uneducated as it comes, I don't understand how you expect to develop the country without international assistance, which in turn comes with 'hidden benefits'. If you have an alternative way, please share your thoughts/comments.


Its not the illiterate rural Afghan corrupting the process. Mahmud Karzai for instance, is not an illiterate Afghan. He believes himself a fine connoisseur of cuisine and an educated literate man. Yet his thievery in Kabul is legendary.

If he is a thief, then he is not educated in my eyes. Putting his clan aside, the overwhelming majority of Afghanistan nation is both illiterate and uneducated, if you think that doesn't make a difference in the current Afghan political situation, then I don't know what to tell you. The nation is ran by folks who can't even write their name in English, so what more do you expect? Any positive developments for Afghans, living in Afghanistan, should be embraced. Expecting better, or criticizing thousands of miles away, and expecting educated acts from uneducated folks is illogical unfortunately. Afghanistan had a chance to avoid scenarios like today, but chose not too; not it will have to pay the price like other nations across the world. Romanticizing the future, bringing forward fantasy solutions, is easy to do, and you and I can do it all day, but we must come up with a proposal that matches the ground realities, and takes into consideration the various variables and strategic interests of global powers. If you come up with a solution that does not make the USA happy, you need to explain what you will do in retaliation. Saying kick out every American is easy, but giving a cohesive solution is no easy task. Think about what I said carefully, and deeply, and don't mind my devils advocate; I do it with folks to see if they can come up with a proposal I haven't thought of, which I could perhaps then scrutinize. I have yet to see your proposal, but I have seen some baseless criticisms.

I cant comment on the Taliban era, but the Americans never traded true independence (i.e. allowing the Chinese or Russians to build bases on their soil - or the brits for that matter) for goodies that are short term gains.
These are two separate eras, and comparing them is impossible, you can never compare two separate nations, that have entirely different dynamics. The USA is unique in every sense, and today we see why it is unique when it has 700 military bases all over the world, including some in the European superpower -- Germany. Put it short, it even has Europe's superpower by the nuts.

Basically Admin once I see one of those expats taking the life of a man as seriously as they do trade deals.. and making the same sacrifices to secure the life of even a single Afghan as if it were more precious than the most precious commodity or a mountain of gold, then I will say we have an autonomous government.

These men consider themselves our new founding fathers. Fathers never tell their kids that their kids are tradable or less precious if the father can get a better job by dumping one of them off or not caring about them.

Because once they consider an Afghan life more valuable than an inanimate object - they will act for their people as they would their own son or daughter.

This man:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/02/wo...stan.html?_r=0

Should not depend on the NY Times to bring him justice or to make his cause known to the world. This man deserves an autonomous government and President that values its peoples safety and sanctity more than a billion dollar polytechnic institute.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

That is the issue though. Why should any expectation exist at all from a non Afghan? How did that expectation end up for native americans and other nations that expected others to build up infrastructure for them. The assumption emigre expats make is that the tradeoff is simply bases and thats it. I would counter that the loss of autonomy is the actual tradeoff. If the Afghan people decide a punishment or way of governance that suits them or decide to have relations with nations that suit their purposes - they have ceded autonomy in order to have military industry complex theives build some micky mouse buildings that were built with funds stolen from the American people in order to hoist governance on the Afghan people.
Fact of the matter is common sense, and predicate logic. NATO has already invaded the country, they have already decided that they are leaving, knowing that they are leaving, any developments, prior to them leaving, for the least, should be embraced knowing how unjust the invasion of a country is. I said this once, and I'll say it again, once another nation has military bases in your country, say Bye-Bye to sovereignty. For the very same reason, using the aforementioned logical principle, I don't consider Germany, Pakistan, Korea to be sovereign. I still present my question to you, which is still unanswered, in a detailed fashion, what can Afghanistan as a nation do right now to be on track for development. We can criticize all we want, but not having a solution makes our points moot.

As per above, Daud and predecessors had the same thought processes. Invite the Soviets in have them build some hospitals and send some lab beakers and russian doctors and bam, infrastructure with no strings attached.
Like I told Maulik, no nation builds you infrastructure without strings attached. You need to be in a position of power to have development, and unfortunately Afghanistan has no bargaining power what so ever. We have corrupt officials running the country, however, recognize that with these corrupt officials, Afghanistan has made some slight progress in various factors. Whether or not the Taliban would have been able to make the same progress is debatable(considering the Taliban had sanctions, and a plethora of other variables as well), but for the most part the country has made progress since 2001. Facts are facts, and Afghanistan simply has no choice in this hungry region.

Making deals without understanding the principle of what is being compromised should be ardently criticized especially when its unrepresentative expats like Karzai signing on the dotted line.
As corrupt as the officials are, I think they do understand what they are signing, and lets not paint all folks with the same brush. There exists competent folks in these Jirgas that truly want development, and work hard daily[Think Ramzan Bashardost], however, the point of frustration is knowing the fact that the USA installed war-lords to begin with, now that's a point of matter which bugs me till this day. How can you expect significant progress when you, yourself, installed war-lords, and have the people busy removing the very warlords you installed? That's not to say those hard-working folks haven't made progress in the past decade.

It is precisely because we are raised in an autonomous nation and have seen the idiocy of many expats that pointing out their errors is a first and foremost duty to ensure their destructive pattern of behavior doesnt further endanger America or Afghanistan.

If a hospital is being built, at least it is being built on Afghan soil, and even when NATO leaves, that hospital will remain for the future generation of Afghans. The damage is already done, the nation is already invaded, if before they leave they want to build you a $5billion University, its the least they should do for all the innocent folks they killed. Recognize that you can not expect anything sincerely from a foreigner, and overall this is just a huge mess without any plausible solution. Unfortunately knowing how the nation is a century behind others in nearly every major sector, illiterate and uneducated as it comes, I don't understand how you expect to develop the country without international assistance, which in turn comes with 'hidden benefits'. If you have an alternative way, please share your thoughts/comments.


Its not the illiterate rural Afghan corrupting the process. Mahmud Karzai for instance, is not an illiterate Afghan. He believes himself a fine connoisseur of cuisine and an educated literate man. Yet his thievery in Kabul is legendary.

If he is a thief, then he is not educated in my eyes. Putting his clan aside, the overwhelming majority of Afghanistan nation is both illiterate and uneducated, if you think that doesn't make a difference in the current Afghan political situation, then I don't know what to tell you. The nation is ran by folks who can't even write their name in English, so what more do you expect? Any positive developments for Afghans, living in Afghanistan, should be embraced. Expecting better, or criticizing thousands of miles away, and expecting educated acts from uneducated folks is illogical unfortunately. Afghanistan had a chance to avoid scenarios like today, but chose not too; not it will have to pay the price like other nations across the world. Romanticizing the future, bringing forward fantasy solutions, is easy to do, and you and I can do it all day, but we must come up with a proposal that matches the ground realities, and takes into consideration the various variables and strategic interests of global powers. If you come up with a solution that does not make the USA happy, you need to explain what you will do in retaliation. Saying kick out every American is easy, but giving a cohesive solution is no easy task. Think about what I said carefully, and deeply, and don't mind my devils advocate; I do it with folks to see if they can come up with a proposal I haven't thought of, which I could perhaps then scrutinize. I have yet to see your proposal, but I have seen some baseless criticisms.

I cant comment on the Taliban era, but the Americans never traded true independence (i.e. allowing the Chinese or Russians to build bases on their soil - or the brits for that matter) for goodies that are short term gains.
These are two separate eras, and comparing them is impossible, you can never compare two separate nations, that have entirely different dynamics. The USA is unique in every sense, and today we see why it is unique when it has 700 military bases all over the world, including some in the European superpower -- Germany. Put it short, it even has Europe's superpower by the nuts.

Basically Admin once I see one of those expats taking the life of a man as seriously as they do trade deals.. and making the same sacrifices to secure the life of even a single Afghan as if it were more precious than the most precious commodity or a mountain of gold, then I will say we have an autonomous government.

These men consider themselves our new founding fathers. Fathers never tell their kids that their kids are tradable or less precious if the father can get a better job by dumping one of them off or not caring about them.

Because once they consider an Afghan life more valuable than an inanimate object - they will act for their people as they would their own son or daughter.

This man:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/02/wo...stan.html?_r=0

Should not depend on the NY Times to bring him justice or to make his cause known to the world. This man deserves an autonomous government and President that values its peoples safety and sanctity more than a billion dollar polytechnic institute.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

sorry for repetition, it wouldnt submit for some reason.

[Admin Khan]

Should not depend on the NY Times to bring him justice or to make his cause known to the world. This man deserves an autonomous government and President that values its peoples safety and sanctity more than a billion dollar polytechnic institute.
No question in that, and as you know[hopefully], I would never contest that claim, however, to deserve an autonomous government, we need a solution to the problems that can pave the way for your ideas, the trillion dollar question; How?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Should not depend on the NY Times to bring him justice or to make his cause known to the world. This man deserves an autonomous government and President that values its peoples safety and sanctity more than a billion dollar polytechnic institute.
No question in that, and as you know[hopefully], I would never contest that claim, however, to deserve an autonomous government, we need a solution to the problems that can pave the way for your ideas, the trillion dollar question; How?

Ill collect the thread for you in the am. The old ones instead of rehashing. Time to sleep. Shab pa khair my friend.