My reflections on NGOs and not only

[Alchemist]

so who are the liberal hippies alchemist? did the muslims not also have slaves?

A muslim can have a slave....because a muslim is himself a slave.
You wouldn't understand.


Serfdom in the west had never ended.
It merely had a change of face...a bit modernized.

You are the liberal hippy because your sense of morality is based on mythical axioms that are no more real than unicorns and pixies.
Like "having a slave is evil"...yet working for a company is nothing short of slavery. What is the big difference? You have a boss to whom you allot some time of your life. All the while, you do his bidding.

In the olden days...of Vikings and the like a slave would work on a landowners farm, uprooting trees and tilling the land until he had sown enough to pay for his "freedom". Now you have people slaving at companies to pay off their mortgage and saving up for their "retirement". What is the big difference?

[faye]

your working very hard here, alchemist. yes there will always be exceptions. apparently, that is human nature, according to some.
don't forget also, that the government of bangladesh also wanted control of the grameen bank, which they eventually did get.
so you can never underestemate propaganda for a cause.

[Alchemist]

I am working very hard because I am arguing against a dim wit...

yes... even Yunus wanted to run for politics but then recanted.

You are claiming a scholarly article published in a peer reviewed journal is "propaganda"...but the autobiography of Yunus is "unbiased" and "faithful to the facts".


Get lost!

you damn troll!

you can't even spell estimate properly wtf

[faye]

A muslim can have a slave....because a muslim is himself a slave.
You wouldn't understand.

Serfdom in the west had never ended.
It merely had a change of face...a bit modernized.

You are the liberal hippy because your sense of morality is based on mythical axioms that are no more real than unicorns and pixies.
Like "having a slave is evil"...yet working for a company is nothing short of slavery. What is the big difference? You have a boss to whom you allot some time of your life. All the while, you do his bidding.

In the olden days...of Vikings and the like a slave would work on a landowners farm, uprooting trees and tilling the land until he had sown enough to pay for his "freedom". Now you have people slaving at companies to pay off their mortgage and saving up for their "retirement". What is the big difference?

hahaha.. a muslim can have a slave because a muslim is himself a slave....but aren't you saying that all those in the west are also slaves? so we can all have slaves then?
alchemist, you might have a big head but your brain is the size of a walnut, if, after seeing my views against wars, depleted uranium, mistreatment of people, on pf for over a year and can still announce with such rigid conviction, that i am a pixie head.
get that stupid chip off your shoulder

[faye]

I am working very hard because I am arguing against a dim wit...
yes... even Yunus wanted to run for politics but then recanted.
You are claiming a scholarly article published in a peer reviewed journal is "propaganda"...but the autobiography of Yunus is "unbiased" and "faithful to the facts".
Get lost!
you damn troll!

you can't even spell estimate properly wtf

well, have you read yunus's book? i have read the article you have put there now you go read his book. maybe there is some conflicting data.
of course, why would i believe a muslim, they are all liars aren't they. but 'peers', they always tell the truth, right. they never have an agenda, right?
stepping low now, alchemist, spelling mistake and troll calling

[Alchemist]

We are slaves to Allah...

you are slaves to corporations - Corpus - corpse - dead body ...purposeless.

Big difference...


That is your problem faye.

You don't have a chip on your shoulder. You have a whole bag of pototoes.

You think I am stupid?

Everyone is a slave in one way or the other...but a slave to what? or who?

It is you - the pixie head - who made an issue of slavery...."oh liberal hippies eh? Why muslims have slave?" Have I made any moral claims in all of this forum?

"depleted uranium...mistreatment...war..." who gives a crap? You didn't even know about that until you came to PF! So yeah ...you are a pixie head.

(Some offence.)

Without derailing the thread much further with your troll tactics - the whole point to be made was that the western world uses NGO's as a tool intervention and modern day colonialism. It projects its own shadow of ignorance and stupidity and falsely believes that the muslim world must be going through the same "pangs of birth" that the christain world did and so it must "catalyze" the process by containing "religious fervour"...all these words..."infidels, holy war, puritanical, fundamentalists" were used during their own "sectarianism"...we hardly have it as bad as they did ...we hardly have it even a quarter bad as they did..."Oh look at them they are stoning their criminals"?
Stoning? In europe they would tie the criminal's limbs to four horses to have it yanked in four directions, then the limbless body would be beheaded with an axe....women burned to the stake for being hysterical...and all those dungeons for which they kept their mentally sick have still restless ghosts haunting it. The English (western) world is sick it is self... they should cure themselves first.

[Alchemist]

It is forbidden for a muslim to charge interest on the money he lends.

You are not one to teach me about morals faye.

So don't even try to.

[faye]

hahaha, was i trying?
you see, you actually delude yourself that i was enlightened by pf. sweet thing, i have known about these things for years. dear dear, we are getting desperate.
anyway chips are ok if cooked in olive oil, so i am off to cook up a sack'o'poatoes,
want some, lol?
i call them 'freedom fries'
,

[یاسمینه]

It looks like The Grameen Bank became the main topic... Ok
Here you have the link to the Tom Heinemann, author of the documentary about the bank: http://tomheinemann.dk/the-micro-debt/

and here the film in 5 parts. Ir' really worth watching.
Caught in Micro-Debt part 1 - YouTube
Caught in Micro-Debt part 2 - YouTube
Caught in Micro-Debt part 3 - YouTube
Caught in Micro-Debt part 4 - YouTube
Caught in Micro-Debt part 5 - YouTube

[یاسمینه]

Yasmeenah - it is fairly widely acknowledged that there is 'wastage' in terms of money spent on NGOs. In some respects it's a Catch 22 situation where without aid workers on the ground (with their layers of protection), aid money would be swallowed by corrupt local officials and never even reach the intended targets.

Since 2001 US invasion, the sudden rise of Afghans with beach front properties in Dubai has occasionally picked up some media attention, though mostly it is accepted, and whilst it is true that NGOs sometimes behave questionably, they often have to work through governments and officials on who themselves lack accountability.

I know some " wastage" is necessary, but somehow I have impression that proportions are imablanced. For example there is 10 USD for help. I think 7-8 USD of will be spent for salaries, accomodation, security etc and only 2-3 USD of the original amout will go to the final beneficiaries.
Maybe I am wrong, but I don't know any data.

[faye]

i saw a documentary about that some years back and they mentioned the charities that have the minmalist costs for the red tape dept. i will see if i can find them.
there is information on wikipedia, saying that yunus was cleared of wrongdoing re, the money he reinvested from norway. also, there were or are politics involved between the government and yunus and there were between 5-9 million loans. depending where you read about it.
for now i will continue to believe that mohammad yunus did what he thought was best and had it working well, for quite some time.

[یاسمینه]

It's not only about Grammen bank. Grameen Bank has the lowest interest rate on micro loans, as I remember 25-31% (which is high anyway comparing to "normal" loans). Other banks modeled on Grameen and specialized in micro loans have much highter interest rates, sometimes more that 100%. And this is something I don't understand. Maybe original idea was good but now they looks (including Grameen Bank) like institutions made to enrich their founders.

I also don't understand one of key isues - that people have to start to pay off after one week. What business brings revenue after one week. Another thing - borrowers are illiterate people and they only know how to sign. They need trusted social workers who explain the details of the contract in very understandable way. Social workers should also represent them in disputes with bank and at the same time check if borrowers meet the obligations. Simply, they need some independent assistance.

[tor_khan]

Tor_Khan,
It seems like corruption runs in the blood of these Masoods. Seriously, how can the brother of the so-called "national hero of Afghanistan"[Ahmad Shah Masood] rob the nation for $52million?

As far as NGOs go, there are some terrific organizations that have done work which is amazing. Most however, are behind the very corruption that we all speak bad of. The problem is sub-contractors. A project gets destroyed in terms of quality when you have a handful of subcontractors.

I have never did get over Mr Masood's audacity. Walking into an airport with $52 Million. That really takes the biscuit. Who does he think he is? Brother of a 'national hero'. My foot.

[Afghanistan2010]

Many NGOs are used as spy cells/networks in afghanistan by the american terrorists and their allies.

[Ghundal]

well let see in 2014, all these corrupticians assets in Dubai will probably be frozen.

I mean it happened to Hosni Mubarak, Gaddafi, Ben Ali