TED: There are no scraps of men

[pir_Rokhan]

Listen carefully. What the muslim brothers from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia did to Afghans and what is an infidel from Italy doing for Afghans.

You decide it yourself.

http://www.ted.com/talks/alberto_cai...ps_of_men.html

[faye]

that is very beautiful pir_ rokhan. i remember seeing photos from afghansitan before this recent war, of many afghans with one leg. it is very sad to see this, knowing that these people are then so incapacitated to work for their and their families survival.
now there will be many more of these injuries, unfortunately.

[randolph85]

good man.

if more aid workers were actually like him, and not opportunistic thieves, there would be real progress there.

[Ghundal]

And how do you know his faith? Whatever made you assume he is not a Muslim? Or are you hoping he is not?

[Ghundal]

Pir,

I have read many times about this man, and he has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the Western intervention. In fact he was working in Afghanistan during Taliban rule too. He had been LIVING in Afgjanistan for a LONG time

He ALSO is AGAINST THE US WAR

So if you are in any shape or form trying to justify your support for the US intervention/war,

yOu failed majorly and that's pathetic

Next time, when a PRO WAR person such as yourself POSTS AWAY, do some research LMAO



There are in fact a few well known Muslim doctors who are also involved in helping Afghan people. Does Dr. Miraki ring a bell? The problem for you is he is ANTI-WAR. This is another problem for you in regards to this Italian man. He too is ANTI WAR

[faye]

ghundal, i was just talking to someone about dr miraki. how is he getting along with contributions for his clinic?

[pir_Rokhan]

@Ghundal

I am also anti war but the only difference is that I consider Pakistan as the major offender who imposed war over Afghans.

Infact I do not consider indigenous Afghan Taliban as responsible for the war in Afghanistan as their shura had decided to get rid of OBL who was the main excuse for US war against Taliban/Al-Qaida/Afghanistan but ISI intervened and convinced Taliban to retain OBL.

ISI want to keep Afghans in the state of war hence keeping Afghanistan dependent upon Pakistan while keeping pakistan away from US agony and war by presenting the Taliban and Al-Qaida factor as a threat to peace. There is no doubt that ISI-backed Taliban [if not Al-Qaida] was ISI's brainchild nurtured to keep afghanistan in the state of war for ever.

All other muslim organisation who are doing relief work in Afghanistan without imposing or indoctrinating their ideology are doing good job.

[Khostai]

I hoope that this can show some peopel that it doesn't matter what kind of religion a person have, you can be good person even if you are secular or atheist or christen or jew.
Becuase I am so tired that every singel problem is blamed on secularists and theists by peopel in this forum -_-.

[Ghundal]

@Ghundal

I am also anti war but the only difference is that I consider Pakistan as the major offender who imposed war over Afghans.

Infact I do not consider indigenous Afghan Taliban as responsible for the war in Afghanistan as their shura had decided to get rid of OBL who was the main excuse for US war against Taliban/Al-Qaida/Afghanistan but ISI intervened and convinced Taliban to retain OBL.

ISI want to keep Afghans in the state of war hence keeping Afghanistan dependent upon Pakistan while keeping pakistan away from US agony and war by presenting the Taliban and Al-Qaida factor as a threat to peace. There is no doubt that ISI-backed Taliban [if not Al-Qaida] was ISI's brainchild nurtured to keep afghanistan in the state of war for ever.

All other muslim organisation who are doing relief work in Afghanistan without imposing or indoctrinating their ideology are doing good job.

You can't be ANTI WAR if you support the US /PAK war. Pakistan supports the US war.


And you go against the historical record .

The people responsible for these wars are the militant Afghan Commumists/secularists who assassinated Daud Khan and had their communist revolution . After murdering Daud Khans family, they then tried to impose a foreign ideology upon Afghans. This resulted in a backlash especially after these secular militants supported the Soviet war.

as the Soviets were defeated, civil war arose. Disorder and chaos gave rise to a reactionary response by Mullahs- the Taliban.

Hence, all these wars are due to militant secularist/ fake nationalist intereference .

US has been meddling in the Eastern world (including Afghanistan) before 9/11

9/11 is not the reference point. The reference point is the 1953 US backed coup of Mossadeq.

Foreign and primarily Western intervention and meddling is sole barrier to global peace

Recently, the assassination of a Iranian professor is further proof of this meddling

You simply are a ahistorical for your own ideas


militant communist/secularist terrorists (murderers of Daud Khan) started all this

[pir_Rokhan]

I was not talking about 1978 war though I also consider that war as a war imposed by Pakistan over Afghans. Chowdry Ziaulhaq played the same role in the war using religion as Musharraf did using his so called enlightened moderation in 2001 onwards.

General Zia wanted to legitimize his autocratic regime by becoming a tool for the US against USSR using Afghans. He accumulated wealth for himself as well as the generals of his army and used both Afghans in Afghanistan and Pashtuns in Pakistan for his purpose. ISI recruited ,facilitated and trained Jihadis in Peshawar and sent them to Afghanistan while CIA funded the war.

In case of Musharraf he used exactly the same technique in a symmetrical form. He also legitimized his dictatorial regime. He also accumulated wealth. He also ruined Pakhtunland in Pakistan and Afghanistan using his army men in Afghan dress and the local Afghans too to safeguard Pakistan's interests of installing a puppet regime in the name of religion. He used Mullah Omar exactly as Zia used Gulbadin and others Jihadis of his times.

In summary, yes despite their sincerity, the communists made the mistake of introducing reforms abruptly for the transition of Afghan society to modernism ignoring the principles of evolution. But as I said the major harm to Afghans was done by Army and ISI under Zia in 80's and Musharraf in 20's.

Afghans need to understand this one point.
ISI and Army are not in favor of a stable and sovereign Afghanistan and they want to use it against India while the civilian govt of Pakistan don’t agree with military over their strategic depth policy but the civilian govt can’t do much as the real power in Pakistan is army.

War has harmed Afghans across the Durand line and even Pakistan. The policy of Pakistan towards Afghanistan has badly affected Pakistan too and even her survival is in doldrums.

If religious guys have a better solution for the progress and prosperity of Afghanistan then they should come into power via popular mandate and prove it. In my opinion, however, Afghan religious leadership has nothing to offer to better governance and I am sure even their perception of religion is also primitive and tribalistic which does not conform with the modern pre requisites of running a state. That is why Pakistan does not want Taliban for their own country they only recommend them for Afghanistan.

[Ghundal]

So according to you, Militant Communists (who supported the Soviets) made "mistakes" when murdering over a million Afghans? bUT the Afghan masses who resisted and crushed these communist terrorists were "Pakistani agents?"
Discarding your failed attempt at trying to discredit Afghan resistance to Soviets, you seem to be A OK with Russian agents, as if Afghans accepted these traitors?


So Afghans are supposed to accept forced secularism to be imposed on th through bloodshed?

The problem starts with militant secularist / communist activity and terrorism which resulted in the murder of Daud khan because he was not secular enough for these donkeys.

[Ghundal]

after causing all this mess with their murder of Daud khan and their revolution so many years ago, they have nothing to show for except the same old "Pakistan, Pakistan, Pakistan."

Is Pakistan also behind the Arab Spring, occupy wall street, the protests in Russia?

Pakistan is a state that serves Western interests. It has no legit leadership. There are many diplomatic jokes about Pakistan servitude to the West.

But in your delusional mind Pakistan seems to be king of the world?

Do you think Pakistan us behind occupy wall street too?

Is Anna Hazare of India also a Pakistani agent?

[khushal]

I was not talking about 1978 war though I also consider that war as a war imposed by Pakistan over Afghans. Chowdry Ziaulhaq played the same role in the war using religion as Musharraf did using his so called enlightened moderation in 2001 onwards.
.

Those things would have stayed domestic if the soviets had not invaded Afghanistan. Once the soviets invaded the whole scenerio changed and Afghanistan was doomed because it becamse an international event and it was a blassing to the pakis and other opportunists including the arabs jihadists that were losing sanctuaries in the arab world.
Dont blame the opportunists, blame the soviets for giving them the opportunity. Direct foreign intervention with troops has always been a disaster for the foreign army and more so for the afghan society.

[pir_Rokhan]

@ Ghundal

As said I am not okay with communist strategy which dealt with either Russians or the resistance forces of ISI-CIA backed mujahedeen. In my opinion it was cold war era and a bipolar world so the communist regime in Kabul was supposed to seek help on non military, diplomatic and technological fronts from Russia. Invitation to Russian troops was not wise. Ofcourse in war there will be casualties. Paki forces killed 3 million Bengalis just because they wanted to get freedom from Punjabi establishment. Anyway I do not support killing or massacres in any case.

Afghans should not accept any forced ideologies whether it was communism of PDPA or the Taliban version of Islam. However it seems you would vote for Taliban version to be imposed as you want to live in medieval ages and ignore the progress made since then by humanity at large.

I don’t know why you guys are so against secularism. First of all democracy and secularism are the products of an Industrial society and hence third world countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan need to do a lot of homework to qualify for these systems. Pakistan is agrarian and Afghanistan is tribal society. A lot has to be done before these countries deploy secularism and democracy. You seem to ignoring the fact that in secularism, state is segregated from clergy. You can be a shia or sunni or wahabi or hindu or whatever. It lets you practice your religion freely. Don’t stigmatize concepts without knowing their practical utility in statecraft.

Your advocacy for Pakistan is understandable. I say it consciously knowing the problems of Pakistan foreign policy towards Afghanistan. It is not just due to any prejudice or hatred. Quite some credible analysts here in Pakistan are of the same opinion.

I know Pakistan is not the sole factor and it has been serving western purposes but you should not under estimate your enemy. Pakistan has a lot of HR potential which has been wrongly used by the exploiters of the military elite for their purposes. Whether Pakistan is strong or not it is stronger than Afghanistan in many aspects and this is the bitter pill you need to swallow in case you want to progress without falling prey to any inferiority complex.

[pir_Rokhan]

@ Khushaal
Your post has a lot of wisdom hidden in it. I agree that in case of states it is always the national interest which rules not any ideology or delusion. You see this was ultimately realized by Stalin when he presented a national version of socialism to USSR. A state should always have an intrinsic strength to stand upon her feet and should not look onto others for her survival, functioning or working.

Applying this concept on today’s world, it will be foolish for any muslim country to think that other muslim countries are there to run the state for them or to help them. The ineffective status of OIC and the delusional concept of Ummat Muslima are useless in political sense.

A simple example is that Saudi wants to use your land [Afghanistan] for their ideological indoctrination and also want to fight their wars against Shias or others calling you brother but when you go there for Hajj you need visa and all other pre requisites which any foreigner non Muslim would need. In that case they forget that you are Muslim brother and neither needs visa or any other restriction to get into an Islamic country. Infact some western countries like US and UK don’t need visa and they can just walk in while you have to go through a lot of humiliation of the typical rude Bedouin mentality in case you want to perform an Islamic obligation like pilgrimage.