Partition of India - biggest mistake in our history?

[زده کوونکی]

I never claimed Pashtuns don't beg, but it's very uncommon and mostly spreading as a result of cultural influence from Desis.

Desis are even spreading their begging culture to Afghanistan despite it being a separate country:

Pakistani Beggars Carrying Out Intelligence Activities: MoI | TOLOnews

Growing beggars in Kabul city concerning – National Radio Television of Afghanistan

If you want to preserve your culture, we want to do the same. Nothing wrong with that.

Begging was not invented by Indians. Although there are probably more in India than anywhere else. It's a disease. Even in London there are beggars, mostly Romanian gypsies (they are related culturally and historically to the gypsy beggars of Pakistan you mentioned). White people beg as well. So do Black. However, I have never ever seen an Asian beggar (or generally any homeless Asians) in the UK.

My (mother's) culture has more or less died out anyway.

[Sarbani]

This isn't true. Not in Afghanistan at least. Only self-hating Pashtuns in Afghanistan are the fake nationalist wannabe Persian elite, and they're a dying breed.

And all the Pakistani Pashtuns I've met have been proud Pashtuns too. Granted, I don't know many of them. But just this weekend I attended a talk of a Pakistani Pashtun Alim, and he was constantly quoting sayings in Pashto and Farsi, and didn't speak a word of Urdu. Heck, he never even called himself Pakistani, and actually did call himself Afghan multiple times, and this was a person who was a Qadi and politician in Pakistan! We had plenty of Punjabis/Indics in the gathering too, so it's not like he was pandering or anything.

Also, killzai is lying. I work in a company that hires a ton of Indian professionals, and while most of them are from south India, they all know Hindi. As I said before, there's a constant argument between a south Indian and a Gujarati on my team regarding Hindi's status in India.

But you all should know as much anyway. Dude's just a lame troll trying to maintain relevance. I guess he's seen Karachi/Dhul-Fiqar and realized the best way to troll us is to pretend he's an Indian nationalist and make fun of Pashtuns.

His story about beggar Afghans is almost definitely a lie too. I doubt he's ever given money to a female that he wasn't propositioning lol.

I don't know anything about this Killzai person. I've heard his name a few times, but never cared to figure out who this person is. He seemed he could speak Awadhi so maybe he's legit? I don't know.

I guess Pashtuns in Afghanistan aren't very self-hating, but the ones back in KPK are. There are a few exceptions (such as myself and a couple other I've met), but generally speaking that's the case. We aren't that bad since we elected the ANP for a while which was at least a pseudo-Pashtun nationalist party, but Pashtuns are obsessed with using Urdu loanwords when Pashto equivalents exists and many times even relate themselves to India and Bangladesh but will bash Afghanistan and Afghans like typical Paki nationalists. Pashto has a very poor status because of Pak Pashtuns. I recall hearing in a school my cousin went to that they fine you if you speak in Pashto after class begins. They're all literate in Urdu but know almost zero Pashto. Pashto history and other stuff aren't taught because Pashtuns don't care enough to push for it. The sense of Pashtun identity is very weak. There was a poll done in Pakistan before on whether you consider yourself Punjabi/Pashtun/Baloch/Sindhi first. The Sindhis and to a lesser extent Baloches saw themselves as Sindhi and Baloch first and Pakistani second. Over 90% of Pashtuns and Punjabis saw themselves as Pakis first and as Pashtun/Punjabi second. Just so you know the state that we're in.

[Sarbani]

Begging was not invented by Indians. Although there are probably more in India than anywhere else. It's a disease. Even in London there are beggars, mostly Romanian gypsies (they are related culturally and historically to the gypsy beggars of Pakistan you mentioned). White people beg as well. So do Black. However, I have never ever seen an Asian beggar (or generally any homeless Asians) in the UK.

My (mother's) culture has more or less died out anyway.

I didn't say it was invented by them. It is just mainly done by Indics in large numbers and they are the ones that spread it. Just because there exist ethnic Romanian and Hungarian beggars doesn't mean that begging isn't a primarily Roma/Gypsy thing. Most (or at least a huge percentage of) Desis in KPK are beggars and they are spreading it. Also, many Desis in KPK are hijras as well.

[زده کوونکی]

I don't know anything about this Killzai person. I've heard his name a few times, but never cared to figure out who this person is. He seemed he could speak Awadhi so maybe he's legit? I don't know.

I guess Pashtuns in Afghanistan aren't very self-hating, but the ones back in KPK are. There are a few exceptions (such as myself and a couple other I've met), but generally speaking that's the case. We aren't that bad since we elected the ANP for a while which was at least a pseudo-Pashtun nationalist party, but Pashtuns are obsessed with using Urdu loanwords when Pashto equivalents exists and many times even relate themselves to India and Bangladesh but will bash Afghanistan and Afghans like typical Paki nationalists. Pashto has a very poor status because of Pak Pashtuns. I recall hearing in a school my cousin went to that they fine you if you speak in Pashto after class begins. They're all literate in Urdu but know almost zero Pashto. Pashto history and other stuff aren't taught because Pashtuns don't care enough to push for it. The sense of Pashtun identity is very weak. There was a poll done in Pakistan before on whether you consider yourself Punjabi/Pashtun/Baloch/Sindhi first. The Sindhis and to a lesser extent Baloches saw themselves as Sindhi and Baloch first and Pakistani second. Over 90% of Pashtuns and Punjabis saw themselves as Pakis first and as Pashtun/Punjabi second. Just so you know the state that we're in.

"Legitimacy" is subjective.

I fully agree with the bulk of your post.

I have mentioned that I have relatives from KPK, specifically from the Yusafzai tribe of Lower Dir. They are all proud Pakistanis and they dislike and distance themselves from, and also look down upon, the "Kabulis"

At the same time, they hate the Punjabis (especially Christian Punjabis of Islamabad) just as much if not more.

So they hate Punjabis and Afghans but they love being Pakistani - however after the Pak Army came to Swat, they hate the army as well.

The last time I visited Islamabad, my uncle from Dir came there to meet me. While driving around, we passed an army vehicle and soldiers some soldiers, their vehicle had broken down on the road. My uncle was happy with this and said he hated the army (and police of course - but he likes one thing about them - "the police are bastrards but they keep the Christians and Kabulis in line. If they were more lenient, the Christians would destroy Pakistan".) He said the army came to his village and in gatherings with the villagers, they would tell them not to speak Pashto and he quoted one officer as saying "Pashto mat bolo. Hamay Pashto se nafrat hai" I felt something in my heart when my uncle told me that, and the way he said it.

Yet, he's still a proud Pakistani. When I was Skyping with one of my friends from London and my friend said something was stupid, my uncle, only having heard the word "stupid" was like "is nay hamaray Pakistan ko stupid kaha?" - like he would have punched him if face-to-face. Btw my uncle is literate in Urdu only, he can't speak English but native language is Pakhto.

[زده کوونکی]

I didn't say it was invented by them. It is just mainly done by Indics in large numbers and they are the ones that spread it. Just because there exist ethnic Romanian and Hungarian beggars doesn't mean that begging isn't a primarily Roma/Gypsy thing. Most (or at least a huge percentage of) Desis in KPK are beggars and they are spreading it. Also, many Desis in KPK are hijras as well.

The beggars are not ethnic Romanians largely you can tell. Romanians look like any other Eastern Europeans (I have been to Romania) but most Roma are a dead give away.

There are plenty of Pakhtun "narkhazi" in Pekhawar.

[Sarbani]

The beggars are not ethnic Romanians largely you can tell. Romanians look like any other Eastern Europeans (I have been to Romania) but most Roma are a dead give away.

There are plenty of Pakhtun "narkhazi" in Pekhawar.

Well it can't be denied that most Pashtuns in Punjab are workers whereas most Punjabis in KPK are beggars. If we were part of India, they would have been 10x more common since begging is a core part of low caste South Asian culture.

[Sarbani]

"Legitimacy" is subjective.

I fully agree with the bulk of your post.

I have mentioned that I have relatives from KPK, specifically from the Yusafzai tribe of Lower Dir. They are all proud Pakistanis and they dislike and distance themselves from, and also look down upon, the "Kabulis"

At the same time, they hate the Punjabis (especially Christian Punjabis of Islamabad) just as much if not more.

So they hate Punjabis and Afghans but they love being Pakistani - however after the Pak Army came to Swat, they hate the army as well.

The last time I visited Islamabad, my uncle from Dir came there to meet me. While driving around, we passed an army vehicle and soldiers some soldiers, their vehicle had broken down on the road. My uncle was happy with this and said he hated the army (and police of course - but he likes one thing about them - "the police are bastrards but they keep the Christians and Kabulis in line. If they were more lenient, the Christians would destroy Pakistan".) He said the army came to his village and in gatherings with the villagers, they would tell them not to speak Pashto and he quoted one officer as saying "Pashto mat bolo. Hamay Pashto se nafrat hai" I felt something in my heart when my uncle told me that, and the way he said it.

Yet, he's still a proud Pakistani. When I was Skyping with one of my friends from London and my friend said something was stupid, my uncle, only having heard the word "stupid" was like "is nay hamaray Pakistan ko stupid kaha?" - like he would have punched him if face-to-face. Btw my uncle is literate in Urdu only, he can't speak English but native language is Pakhto.

I haven't heard them bad mouthing Christians in particular before. Either way, I am aware folk like those exist, but most seem to be Paki nationalists and anti-Pashtun. If Pashtuns of PK were so proud of being Pashtun, then over 90% wouldn't consider themselves Paki first and we wouldn't be in our current condition.

[زده کوونکی]

Well it can't be denied that most Pashtuns in Punjab are workers whereas most Punjabis in KPK are beggars. If we were part of India, they would have been 10x more common since begging is a core part of low caste South Asian culture.

Yes, most Pashtuns in Punjab are workers but again, I do not know about the Punjabis in KPK, so I'll just take your word for it. FYI it's not "low" caste that begs as an occupation, they are are outcastes (underclass).

BTW the uncle I mentioned in the other post - he loves his Pakhto but it just is not anywhere near as important to him as "Pakistaniyat" seems to be.

[Traveller]

This isn't true. Not in Afghanistan at least. Only self-hating Pashtuns in Afghanistan are the fake nationalist wannabe Persian elite, and they're a dying breed.

And all the Pakistani Pashtuns I've met have been proud Pashtuns too. Granted, I don't know many of them. But just this weekend I attended a talk of a Pakistani Pashtun Alim, and he was constantly quoting sayings in Pashto and Farsi, and didn't speak a word of Urdu. Heck, he never even called himself Pakistani, and actually did call himself Afghan multiple times, and this was a person who was a Qadi and politician in Pakistan! We had plenty of Punjabis/Indics in the gathering too, so it's not like he was pandering or anything.

Also, killzai is lying. I work in a company that hires a ton of Indian professionals, and while most of them are from south India, they all know Hindi. As I said before, there's a constant argument between a south Indian and a Gujarati on my team regarding Hindi's status in India.

But you all should know as much anyway. Dude's just a lame troll trying to maintain relevance. I guess he's seen Karachi/Dhul-Fiqar and realized the best way to troll us is to pretend he's an Indian nationalist and make fun of Pashtuns.

His story about beggar Afghans is almost definitely a lie too. I doubt he's ever given money to a female that he wasn't propositioning lol.

Are you talking about Qazi Fazlullah? He's very famous in KPK as well.

[maneatinglizard]

Are you talking about Qazi Fazlullah? He's very famous in KPK as well.

Yes lol.

Have you met him? I have some friends who are big fans of his, but this was the first time I had heard one of his talks.

He was pretty funny too. He mentioned men who expect their wives to work and earn them money and said "in Pashto we call these people 'dala'" lol. Reminded me of Mawlana Bijligar (rahimahu Allah).

[Traveller]

Yes lol.

Have you met him? I have some friends who are big fans of his, but this was the first time I had heard one of his talks.

He was pretty funny too. He mentioned men who expect their wives to work and earn them money and said "in Pashto we call these people 'dala'" lol. Reminded me of Mawlana Bijligar (rahimahu Allah).

No but I've heard of him. I think he's from the same village as my aunt's husband.

Is Mawlana Bijligar well-known in Afghanistan? He's a legend in KPK. Very interesting man. I've never really listened to him but from what I've heard he was funny but his jokes were dirty.

[زده کوونکی]

I think its adorable you guys talk about your favorite Mullagan like they're rockstars and that you and your friends attend their "concerts" lol

Yes, Maulana Bijligar of course, was a legend. May he rest in peace.

One of his Bayans I remember was about watching good things vs bad things on TV.
I just remember cracking up the way he said "pa VCR ke aw kha seezona?? Pa TV ke aw kha seezona?? No da dand qaum ba daman usho" (forgot his exact words)

[salman47]

1. Hindi has no relevance in India outside the Hindi-belt (BIMARU states). Punjabis, Gujaratis, Marathis, Bengalis etc. do not speak Hindi (just because Bollywood is in Mumbai doesn't mean the people there actually all speak Hindi - at least not the creolized Bambaiya pidgin. South India has nothing to do Hindustan, they are their own civilization by and large. There is some exchange between the North and South but identities remain distinct.

Yes, North East India has suffered and has more separatists than Balochistan and Kurdistan combined, but the people there generally do want to be part of India - but just respected in the same way Dravida (South India). They want their recognition of their culture within the wider mainstream, and who can blame them. Its the ignorance of other Indians that they are surprised when they see "Indians" who look different, eg. Sino-Tibetan North Easterners, Black African Sheedis, etc.

I have visited KPK several times, though not in recent years, so if this Indic gypsy beggar phenomenon came up during the last 10 years, I don't know. The only Indics in KPK that I know of are:

1) Native Hindkowans
2) Sikhs and Hindus
3) Pashtunised aboriginals like Kutani, Jatts, Kasabgar, Hajjams, etc. - the castes and "tribes" that provided service to their wider communities.
3) Recent migrants from Punjab etc. - though I don't these number as much as you claim.

Lol you fear your culture being destroyed - is Pashtunwali really that weak?

Not destroyed per say, but more like what is happening in GCC(it is more than 90% Indian/Pakistani)

[زده کوونکی]

Not destroyed per say, but more like what is happening in GCC(it is more than 90% Indian/Pakistani)

That's because those people are too lazy to do any of the work themselves, that's why the majority in places like Dubai are expatriates.

I doubt Pashtuns would hire foreigners for every little thing.

Oman is different tho, yes there are loads of foreigners, but native Omanis actually do work in every single field, including the unskilled.

I will actually be going to UAE/Oman this month, I really don't want to but my job requires it at least once a year - company based there and projects are there.

[salman47]

That's because those people are too lazy to do any of the work themselves, that's why the majority in places like Dubai are expatriates.

I doubt Pashtuns would hire foreigners for every little thing.

Oman is different tho, yes there are loads of foreigners, but native Omanis actually do work in every single field, including the unskilled.

I will actually be going to UAE/Oman this month, I really don't want to but my job requires it at least once a year - company based there and projects are there.

Last time I went to Dubai, it felt like 'India'(I have never been to India, I mean everyone was Indian). Absolutely, no familiar people!