Ur response?

[Millatpal Noorzai]

It is interesting how in order to prevent such disrespect only a change in the behavior of us women is suggested. You don't see brothers preaching to men about how they should refrain from doing whatever it is they're doing - no. "Women, stop wearing make up, stop wearing clothes that fit you, hide yourselves in curtains, move away into a place where there is no men." While "men just will be men".

And I agree, many women are very seductive in the way they dress etc - but I have seen this happen to the most pious and covered girls. It is not a one way street.. the girl can't go running and hiding when there is nothing done on the men's side. In that case, no matter how much he runs and hides and under how many curtains she hides herself - she will still be found and disrespected.

Women should dress properly and men should lower their gaze,i do so coz i can't look straight at women.

[Mayana]

But it does not happen as often to the covered ones as it does to the uncovered ones.

Of course.. but just the fact the it happens to the covered ones implies that it is not a one way street and that covering alone doesn't do the job.
If a man if low enough to disrespect a woman in such a way, he will have little forbearance for how covered she is. Because if he were pious for GOD's sake he wouldn't approach a woman in such a way anyways because he fears God.. but if he is pious for a Hijab's sake, he will look past that Hijab if the girl is attractive enough.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

^Well, you will always have people who will go beyond all bounds.

A woman should do her part, physically, verbally and mentally, and leave the rest in the hands of Allah. That is all Allah can expect from you.

[Mayana]

Women should dress properly and men should lower their gaze,i do so coz i can't look straight at women.

Kor di Wadaan, Millatpala.. Beshaka, dera lazima Khabara di wakrala. I agree with ever word!

[Roshina]

Hold on a second ... are we being practical here? MOVE if you're living in an area where you can't live a life of dignity? Goodness gracious, how realistic is that? What if someone cannot afford to move? What if one is living a life of compulsion where one is living?

So, Momin, you cannot compare today's circumstances, today's situations, today's lifestyle, today's dealings to 7th century's -- especially when it comes to the lifestyle of 21st-century west and 7th-century Arabia. You cannot compare today's Muslim woman to the Prophet's wives. It is unfair to assume that things would be great if we ourselves were just great. Reality is not as beautiful as that; it's not as easy as you make it seem, either. Why, you might ask? Well, because we're not the only ones involved in the reality: Everyone around us is. So I may even cover myself from head to toe, I may lower my gaze, I may be everything the typical Muslim believes I must be in order to keep myself safe, but that is NOT going to help me stay safe at all, since my being safe depends on my surroundings, including other people.

And authority? Again, which authority are you talking about? Where's this authority? Hell, a raped female cannot even report her rapist in most Muslim countries because she knows how life works against her there! In the reality that we live in, there's no such thing as authority that keeps women protected and safe. In the west, where many PF members live, it might be available, but even then, it's not all that easy -- if only you knew what all is involved in someone's reporting criminals to the authorities!

So please, folks, don't make assumptions. This sort of mentality reinforces the claim that women who get raped CALL to be raped, or women who are constantly harassed by men are seeking the attention of men. As you can see from the responses of the females here, NO one wants the attention of men; no one wants to be harassed. We want to live in a society where we will be ABLE to walk to the nearest market if we want without having to go through hell to keep ourselves safe.

Besides ... why are men telling us what to do when, how to behave, how to respond, etc., when they have never been in the situation that the women here are describing, when they never WILL be in these situations because they're not women?

I dress in a way that makes me feel very comfortable, and while some might not like it, I love it. And guess what? The only men who stare at me are Pakistanis and Indian "doctors" or future doctors studying at the school I go to -- mind you, they happen to be Muslims, too, because I sometimes see them coming out of the prayer-area on campus. Non-Muslims and non-Desis don't even seem to think I exist, and if I had to ever choose befriending any males, it would certainly have to be non-Muslims because they know how to respect me more, they know how to talk to me, they know how to approach me.

Of course, I do not speak on behalf of all females; I speak only for myself because this is my experience with male strangers.

How men will approach you depends on how you carry yourself and what sort of attitude you have. Like I said earlier, if you ignore them, they'll shut up. If you look back, if you smile, if you say ANYTHING in return to them, they might be excited. Some men even love it when women respond by yelling at them, getting angry, cursing at them, etc. So I advise everyone to just SIMPLY ignore.

[Admin Khan]

Meemwawmeemnoon,

Would you agree that asking someone to move because a few beghairat people are bothering her is a bit too extreme? Wouldn't something like traveling to her house on a different street etc be more applicable as opposed to moving everytime someone says, "Hi, You are pretty?"

Just a thought.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

I am with reality.

Those sisters who have bunch of make up and who wear tight clothing have always be harassed. They don't follow proper Islamic injunctions.

That may be so and I won't argue against the daleel of Islam. However a luchak is a luchak is a luchak. Agha pakhto kae che waee zanae khalk sthargae na sharmeegee. So I don't think this can be applied to all cases.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Hold on a second ... are we being practical here? MOVE if you're living in an area where you can't live a life of dignity? Goodness gracious, how realistic is that? What if someone cannot afford to move? What if one is living a life of compulsion where one is living?

What is practical? To be abused or to move?

So, Momin, you cannot compare today's circumstances, today's situations, today's lifestyle, today's dealings to 7th century's -- especially when it comes to the lifestyle of 21st-century west and 7th-century Arabia. You cannot compare today's Muslim woman to the Prophet's wives. It is unfair to assume that things would be great if we ourselves were just great. Reality is not as beautiful as that; it's not as easy as you make it seem, either. Why, you might ask? Well, because we're not the only ones involved in the reality: Everyone around us is. So I may even cover myself from head to toe, I may lower my gaze, I may be everything the typical Muslim believes I must be in order to keep myself safe, but that is NOT going to help me stay safe at all, since my being safe depends on my surroundings, including other people.

It is easier to move today than it was 1430 years ago.

And authority? Again, which authority are you talking about? Where's this authority? Hell, a raped female cannot even report her rapist in most Muslim countries because she knows how life works against her there! In the reality that we live in, there's no such thing as authority that keeps women protected and safe. In the west, where many PF members live, it might be available, but even then, it's not all that easy -- if only you knew what all is involved in someone's reporting criminals to the authorities!

We are not talking about rape. What do you want girls to start beating up men?

So please, folks, don't make assumptions. This sort of mentality reinforces the claim that women who get raped CALL to be raped, or women who are constantly harassed by men are seeking the attention of men. As you can see from the responses of the females here, NO one wants the attention of men; no one wants to be harassed. We want to live in a society where we will be ABLE to walk to the nearest market if we want without having to go through hell to keep ourselves safe.

Allah has given guidelines as how to avoid it.

Besides ... why are men telling us what to do when, how to behave, how to respond, etc., when they have never been in the situation that the women here are describing, when they never WILL be in these situations because they're not women?

Allah knows better than us all. I was ALWAYS referring to what he was saying.

I dress in a way that makes me feel very comfortable, and while some might not like it, I love it. And guess what? The only men who stare at me are Pakistanis and Indian "doctors" or future doctors studying at the school I go to[FONT=verdana,geneva,lucida,'lucida grande',arial,helvetica,sans-serif] -- mind you, they happen to be Muslims, too, because I sometimes see them coming out of the prayer-area on campus.[/FONT] Non-Muslims and non-Desis don't even seem to think I exist, and if I had to ever choose befriending any males, it would certainly have to be non-Muslims because they know how to respect me more, they know how to talk to me, they know how to approach me.

What does this have to do with someone following the commandments of their Lord?

Of course, I do not speak on behalf of all females; I speak only for myself because this is my experience with male strangers.

Has it worked?

How men will approach you depends on how you carry yourself and what sort of attitude you have. Like I said earlier, if you ignore them, they'll shut up. If you look back, if you smile, if you say ANYTHING in return to them, they might be excited. Some men even love it when women respond by yelling at them, getting angry, cursing at them, etc. So I advise everyone to just SIMPLY ignore.

What have I been saying that is different than what you just said?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

That may be so and I won't argue against the daleel of Islam. However a luchak is a luchak is a luchak. Agha pakhto kae che waee zanae khalk sthargae na sharmeegee. So I don't think this can be applied to all cases.

Beloved and dearest brother,

A luchak is a luchak!

The least the girl can is to follow Islamic injunctions and not respond back. That is all that I am saying.

Leave the rest in the hands of Allah.

This topic is encouraging discussion on what to say. I totally disagree with a woman degrading herself to respond to a pervert.

Women are dignified. They have been created as such. Don't let a loser take that away from you by responding to him.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Meemwawmeemnoon,

Would you agree that asking someone to move because a few beghairat people are bothering her is a bit too extreme? Wouldn't something like traveling to her house on a different street etc be more applicable as opposed to moving everytime someone says, "Hi, You are pretty?"

Just a thought.

Dearest brother, I was referring to extreme cases.

If a woman carries herself in a dignified manner it won't happen the second time by the same man.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Beloved and dearest brother,

A luchak is a luchak!

The least the girl can is to follow Islamic injunctions and not respond back. That is all that I am saying.

Leave the rest in the hands of Allah.

This topic is encouraging discussion on what to say. I totally disagree with a woman degrading herself to respond to a pervert.

Women are dignified. They have been created as such. Don't let a loser take that away from you by responding to him.

Yes but as guys we don't go through it, so it is hard for us to comprehend it. Ye they (and guys as well) should follow what Islam says, but again easier said then done, since for us guys it is a compliment if a girl 'checks us out; (general scenario), but girls I assume it is different. Allah u aalim.

[PFgulalai]

It's more how you carry yourself and you body language. If you exude confidence and boldness, guys would think twice before getting in trouble with you. On the other hand, if you appear timid, fearful, and weak, then you definitely incur the wrath of the "such" males.
While considering the wildness of some males, they could be potential danger to any woman--bold or timid; covered or naked; tall or short, etc. The best thing is to protect yourself as much as you can.My reaction to a particular situation is spontaneous (depending upon the severity of the situation). Self-defense classes have helped me in boosting my self-confidence in such situations. Certain comments/gestures can be ignored; certain winks can be ignored; but when it comes to unbearable ones I would not tolerate since simply ignoring would just put me in a more miserable condition. I can ignore comment like "what is your number?", but offensive sexual advances, comments, or acts would stimulate my basic defensive (natural) instincts quite reasonably and hence I will deal with the situation accordingly.

[Roshina]

^ Self-defense classes are rrrrreally worth taking! If they don't help in making you keep yourself safe physically, they at least make you more confident in yourself. And I think many women -- programmed to grow into timid, shy, insecure women -- would benefit from them greatly.

Gulalai, you should share some tips in the thread we have created for self-defense for women. Here --> http://www.pashtunforums.com/pashtun...ips-women-121/

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Yes but as guys we don't go through it, so it is hard for us to comprehend it. Ye they (and guys as well) should follow what Islam says, but again easier said then done, since for us guys it is a compliment if a girl 'checks us out; (general scenario), but girls I assume it is different. Allah u aalim.

It is not a compliment. You might think it is a compliment.

Your looks are not yours. You did not work for it. You can only take care of yourself to stay healthy, but end of the day it is your looks that matter. And that is not your own work. It has been bestowed upon you by Allah.

As for your akhlaaq, that is what you should work on. And even then you should hate it when people compliment your akhlaaq. A believer, only seeks the respect of his Creator. Allah Ta'ala respects people by bestowing favour upon believers when He gives them respect.

One of those forms of respect is Martyrdom.

If a handsome man rather fight for his deen and stay pure rather to stoop low because he could have all girls then Allah will bestow Martyrdom on him instead because he walked in a dignified mannner, instead of having all the girls he could have had.

Physical beauty is limited to those who care for flattery. Internal beauty is only limited to the eyes of Allah and those dignified people.

Flattery is Satan's tool.

[PFgulalai]

Dearest brother, I was referring to extreme cases.

If a woman carries herself in a dignified manner it won't happen the second time by the same man.

MWMN, I have seen burqa-clad (dignified) women being sexually harassed by random guys in the crowded places of Saddar Bazaar in Peshawar as much as the just-saloo (undignified) wearing girls.
Would you tell them not to go to Saddar Bazaar? What a nonsense of profoundest degree!!