The Pashtun non-Pashtun debate

[Toramana]

An interesting discussion has taken place in the thread "Pashun non-Pashtun" that I started although my aim was just fun and not to provoke any serious response or begin any academic discussion. Some unfortunate exchanges on the forum, however, transformed the fun-intended thread into a place for a heated debate on the issue as "who is a Pashtun and who a hamsaya".

Lol- we saw the venting of some intense feelings in the thread and the laying out of the criteria and definitions of "being a Pashtun" in pretty stark terms. The conclusions are plain "black and white" for me at least, i. e., exclusion or acceptance of my status as "hamsaya".

But when I ask myself the question do I really need to be a Pashtun to have a sense of dignity and self-respect or to be able to do what I want to do in life-or to have a sense of fulfilment and emotional satisfaction that partly comes from the kinship in a group, the answer is "No". From my thinking about this issue I have reached the conclusion that tribe is nothing but merely a political tool. The concept was possibly developed in pre-history and in some societies where there emerged a higher moral and political order or appeared the sinews of a stronger economy, the tribal groupings transformed into less rigid and more inclusive structures. But in places where folks had rudimentary economy and had to fight for pastures, grazing grounds, water resources, and other means of subsistence, most of the times violently, retention of the alignment was necessary for there weren't sufficient economic means to have a more efficient political order such as a state (who will feed a permanent army).

The tribal thinking thus isn't something of an accomplishment that one can consider a matter or source of pride and strength but rather the sign of a severe limitation. It most of the time doesn't help one realize one's aspiration and aims in life at least in the case of a majority of people. It is rather the main source of inhibition or hurdle (e.g., for hamsayas). Moreover, it is also a source of divisions and instability. Many societies in the world where there is anarchy or violence, there are some tribal characteristics.

I thus will not like to be associated with any society that will try to organize itself on tribal lines or have an implicit or explicit caste system-or will work for a cause that reinforces and promotes such thinking, attitudes, and practices or strengthen those that hold such backward views.

Working for such a cause will be an immoral act on the contrary.

A more moral, noble, and just cause rather would be supporting those that are the victims of such a system, i.e., the hamsayas-Lol (who are in majority). For years I have been a Pashtun nationalist ; now I realize it is a dangerous ideology. I think one should fight for the cause of the victims instead.

[tilla_jogian]

Welcome to real world hamsaya. Now that we have opened your eyes, you shall become Pakistani again.

[Toramana]

Vow, in this 21st Century and in this age of democracy and globalization, there are individuals who think the major section of the population the so-called hamsayas can be integrated into the caste system where they will be contented happily accepting their status.

Imagine a guy using his own resources and through share hard work attains a status and there are others coming to him telling him because you don't have this and that blood therefore you are inferior even if you have better and more sophisticated idea, have more refined thought, have more moral upbringing, and contribute more to the society than the parasite who is claiming status, honour, and privileges on heridatory and dynastic ground.

Vow, this is tribal wisdom, sense of justice, and view of social life.

Folk as long as we are able to get our share in society according to our size, ability, and contribution, who cares whether you call us hamsaya or Pashtun. You may gloat in your tribal pride, use it for self-gratification, prop up your sometimes injured ego with it but it doesn't translate for us in anything concrete and valuable.

We are a self-contained community in every respect economically, socially, and politically and don't need any title or additional qualification to feel good about ourselves.

[Toramana]

Welcome to real world hamsaya. Now that we have opened your eyes, you shall become Pakistani again.

Thank you for the warm welcome tilla_jogian. Lol

[tilla_jogian]

Vow, in this 21st Century and in this age of democracy and globalization, there are individuals who think the major section of the population the so-called hamsayas can be integrated into the caste system where they will be contented happily accepting their status.

Imagine a guy using his own resources and through share hard work attains a status and there are others coming to him telling him because you don't have this and that blood therefore you are inferior even if you have better and more sophisticated idea, have more refined thought, have more moral upbringing, and contribute more to the society than the parasite who is claiming status, honour, and privileges on heridatory and dynastic ground.

Vow, this is tribal wisdom, sense of justice, and view of social life.

Folk as long as we are able to get our share in society according to our size, ability, and contribution, who cares whether you call us hamsaya or Pashtun. You may gloat in your tribal pride, use it for self-gratification, prop up your sometimes injured ego with it but it doesn't translate for us in anything concrete and valuable.

We are a self-contained community in every respect economically, socially, and politically and don't need any title or additional qualification to feel good about ourselves.

Seem like you have lived most of your life in west. To me this is nothing surprising because I know from personal expericence (listining to elders of our family) how racist zamindar people in punjab can get when it comes to kammi people and even non-kammi people of other tribes. I was surprised initially to find how similar caste system is in punjab and kpk.

And there is just no way any kammi can have status of zamindar tribe no matter how rich he gets in modern times. They will never accept you as one of their own even if culturarly, linguistically there is no difference. As you can see even relatively tolerant pashtuns on this site have said hamsayas are not pashtuns.

Parents of half kammi kids have hard time getting rishtas in to their own biraderi, so they have to change villages and lie. Some times men from zamindar tribe marry kammi girl (or even non kammi but from other ethnic group), either they are completly shunned or they have to move out to different place. Kammiz in cities will never tell you their right caste and adopt zamindar tribe/caste and even surnames. If they want to get rid of that kammi tag even in cities, you can imagine what they go through in rural areas. The main difference is since punjabi is linguistic identity, so everyone is punjabi no matter which tribe.

You are paracha which seem to be trading caste type, now imagine yourself in shoes of menial castes like mussalis, nais, machis etc

This why Pakistan is great place for kammi people, there is equality for people like you. Parachas are doing good and better then most no doubt, they don't need anyother identity. PPP ex-mna Rehman Malik belong to nai caste. Jahangir of PPP also belong to some kammi caste. Raheel Sharif is half kammi but I bet he doesnt know this fact.

[Toramana]

Seem like you have lived most of your life in west. To me this is nothing surprising because I know from personal expericence (listining to elders of our family) how racist zamindar people in punjab can get when it comes to kammi people and even non-kammi people of other tribes. I was surprised initially to find how similar caste system is in punjab and kpk.

I don't have any experience of a long stay or deeper observation of the social life in Punjab. Therefore, that is an interesting information for me. I wish to see the rural Punjab where the traditional Punjabi culture seems to be still alive.

As for the distinction of Kammis and Zamindars, there are economic reasons at the basis of this division. The landed gentry needs to make sure that its secure and privileged status continues and that it is able to pass the ownership of the land and other means of wealth/power on to the progeny in a dynastic manner.

Therefore, it invents the instrument of the clan and tribe which can be seen as a kind of alliance or unity between individuals (and families, extended families, etc.) with a common interests in perpetuating the existing order. Many a times, ethnically or racially unrelated tribes are also co-opted/integrated into the alliance and the tribes grows into a super tribe or confederacy of tribes. To cement the political alliance between the tribes, a myth of common ancestry is invented. This is necessary to ward off more powerful groups and the threat to control over land. But just unity between gentry is not sufficient because in most of the cases the serfs, or hamsayas, or whatever you call it are in majority and should they get organized and develop military skill and organization, and political unity, there is a risk of their rebellion and overthrow of the control of the class of gentry.

For this reason, they (i.e., the gentry) need a psychological tool to keep the "hamsaya/kammis" in a submissive/subservient state of mind and to acquire that tool, the gentry invents the myth of the nobility of the landed class and its natural right to rule and that of the ig-nobility of the "hamsaya/kammis" and its duty to obey.

You might have noticed that usually good attributes, e.g., valour, courage, generosity, etc. are attributed to the nobility whereas negative qualities (e.g., cowardice, etc.) with the class of surfs, hamsayas, and kammis. These views are also transmitted to younger generations by emphasizing to them that they are superior and, therefore, masters and the kammis are inferior and , therefore, slaves or subjects. Same "facts" are reminded to the young generations of the kammi class.

With passage of time this attitude becomes a permanent part of the psyche both in Zamindars and Kamis. Thus the Zamindars develop extreme narcissistic thinking and attitude whereas the kammis a severe lack of self-confidence (and self-esteem).

You might also have noticed that the kammis are usually bared from military service and not allowed to keep arms. These are various safeguards by the gentry to eliminate any chance in the serf class of a revolutionary type uprising against the gentry. In most cases religion is also used to legitimize the status of gentry and the fate of kammis as a permanently doomed lot. The status of "sajjad nasheens" and "peers" in Punjab is an example of the use of religion for acquiring power and gain legitimacy for social privileges.

Not giving women into marriages to kammis also is part of above process. Initially, the motives/purpose of this practice is purely economic because the social/race segregation means the kammis are excluded from loop (of power and economy). If the daughters of Zamindars will marry into kammi families sooner or later there will be social equality, which is against the interest of the Zamindar class (land will be more evenly distributed). Later the issue also becomes psychological. I believe the shame associated with marrying the daughter into the kammi family is invented and propagated on purpose by the gentry to restrain its members from sharing power and wealth through marriage relations with the kammi class.

[tilla_jogian]

I
Therefore, it invents the instrument of the clan and tribe which can be seen as a kind of alliance or unity between individuals (and families, extended families, etc.) with a common interests in perpetuating the existing order. But just unity between gentry is not sufficient because in most of the cases the serfs, or hamsayas, or whatever you call it are in majority and should they get organized and develop military skill and organization, and political unity, there is a risk of their rebellion and overthrow of the control of the class of gentry.

Many a times, ethnically or racially unrelated tribes also co-opted/integrated into the alliance and the tribes grows into a super tribe or confederacy of tribes. To cement the political alliance between the tribes, a myth of common ancestry is invented. This is necessary to ward off more powerful groups and the threat to control over land.

For this reason, they (i.e., the gentry) need a psychological tool to keep the "hamsaya/kammis" in a submissive/subservient state of mind and to acquire that tool, the gentry invents the myth of the nobility of the landed class and its natural right to rule and that of the ig-nobility of the "hamsaya/kammis" and its duty to obey.

You might have noticed that usually good attributes, e.g., valour, courage, generosity, etc. are attributed to the nobility whereas negative qualities (e.g., cowardice, etc.) with the class of surfs, hamsayas, and kammis. These views are also transmitted to younger generations by emphasizing to them that they are superior and, therefore, masters and the kammis are inferior, therefore, slaves or subjects. Same facts are reminded to the young generations of the kammi class.

With passage of time this attitude becomes a permanent part of the psyche both in Zamindars and Kamis. Thus the Zamindars develop extreme narcissistic thinking and attitude whereas the kammis a severe lack of self-confidence (and self-esteem).

You might also have noticed that the kammis are usually bared from military service and not allowed to keep arms. These are various safeguards by the gentry to eliminate any chance in the serf class of a revolutionary type uprising against the gentry. In most cases religion is also used to legitimize the status of gentry and the fate of kammis as a permanently doomed lot. The status of "sajjad nasheens" and "peers" in Punjab is an example of the use of religion for acquiring power and legitimacy for social privileges.

Not giving women into marriages to kammis also is part of above process. Initially, the motives/purpose of this practice is purely economic because the social/race segregation means the kammis are excluded from loop (of power and economy). If the daughters of Zamindars will marry into kammi families sooner or later there will be social equality, which is against the interest of the Zamindar class (land will be more evenly distributed). Later the issue also becomes psychological. I believe the shame associated with marrying the daughter into the kammi family is invented and propagated on purpose by the gentry to restrain its members from sharing power and wealth.

Dude you have hit the nail on head. Yep this is how it works. Also as you notice so called pashtunized tribes are always landowners and not kammi. Why kammi couldn't be pashtunized? When these tribes were pashtunized they were still land owners of certain area and had different mindset from kammis even if defeated/conquered.

So kammi remained kammi while landowners adopted new identity and became part of bigger powerful tribe. Only tribe/clan name remained original most likely.

[Toramana]

And there is just no way any kammi can have status of zamindar tribe no matter how rich he gets in modern times. They will never accept you as one of their own even if culturarly, linguistically there is no difference.

tilla_jogian, that is due to the psychological barriers that centuries of social programming and tabu construction puts to free mingling between groups, casts, and biradaris. Part of this is natural as well as humans are by their very essence power-seeking and resource-amassing creatures. The underlying motive may have explanation in evolutionary biology, e.g., survival instincts and strategies.

As you can see even relatively tolerant pashtuns on this site have said hamsayas are not pashtuns.

That is unfortunate. But practically, the problem is not that severe and on ground, the attitude varies from place to place. One reason for this is that Pashtun society is relatively an egalitarian society and land-holdings are small and over the years have even gotten smaller. As the class-oriented attitude is mainly linked to the feudal mindset, consequently with more even distribution of land, the problem also has mitigated in the Pashtun society.

In KP, the vast majority in Peshawar Valley and Malakand division except for small pockets in Charssada, upper Swat, and may be Sawabi, doesn't practice this rule or applies it with less severity. Directly offending someone or the use of force to influence someone's decision (e.g., as whom to vote for) is very rare in the above areas (I personally never experienced such thing). Social relations between people in my opinion are friendly and based on equality. The youngster generation even when they know who they are not conscious about it.

In few southern districts of KP though tribal distinctions may be sharp and equivalently also the cast distinctions but I am not very sure.

Parents of half kammi kids have hard time getting rishtas in to their own biraderi, so they have to change villages and lie. Some times men from zamindar tribe marry kammi girl (or even non kammi but from other ethnic group), either they are completly shunned or they have to move out to different place. Kammiz in cities will never tell you their right caste and adopt zamindar tribe/caste and even surnames. If they want to get rid of that kammi tag even in cities, you can imagine what they go through in rural areas. The main difference is since punjabi is linguistic identity, so everyone is punjabi no matter which tribe.

I am not aware of this because was never affected by it. May be some families with big lands have this attitude but most people (I mean original Pashtuns) only have small pieces of land and may care much who the person at the other end is. Social respect is very much in place in mutual interaction and rather has increased with the passage of time due to new changes (education, urbanization, etc.) though inhibition to marriage into each other biradari may still be there (psychological factor).

You are paracha which seem to be trading caste type, now imagine yourself in shoes of menial castes like mussalis, nais, machis etc.

Haha-what if I were not a paracha? I think that is inhuman. Every body deserves respect. Assume, I am not a paracha and am rather a blue-blooded Pashtun, I will still be standing with the down-trodden. Tribalism is a great evil and an anachronism that must go away as soon as possible. Society should be run by men of ideas, wisdom, and higher moral principles than evil narcissistic people with retrogressive tendencies and backward ways and thinking.

This why Pakistan is great place for kammi people, there is equality for people like you. Parachas are doing good and better then most no doubt, they don't need anyother identity. PPP ex-mna Rehman Malik belong to nai caste. Jahangir of PPP also belong to some kammi caste. Raheel Sharif is half kammi but I bet he doesnt know this fact.

That is interesting. What is by the way being a half-Kammi?

[tilla_jogian]

tilla_jogian, that is due to the psychological barriers that centuries of social programming and tabu construction puts to free mingling between groups, casts, and biradaris. Part of this is natural as well as humans are by their very essence power-seeking and resource-amassing agents. The underlying motive may have explanation in evolutionary biology, e.g., survival instincts and strategies.



That is unfortunate. But practically, the problem is not that severe and on ground, the attitude varies from place to place. One reason for this situation is that Pashtun society is relatively an egalitarian society and land-holdings are small and over the years have even having gotten smaller. As this attitude is mainly linked to feudal mindset, consequently with more even distribution of land, the problem also has mitigated in Pashtun society.

In KP, the vast majority in Peshawar Valley and Malakand division except for small pockets in Charssada, upper Swat, and may be Sawabi, doesn't practice this or applies it with less severity. Directly offending someone or the use of force to influence someone's decision (e.g., as whom to vote for) is very rare (I personally never experienced such thing).

Social relations between people in my opinion are friendly and based on equality. The youngster generation even when they know who they are not conscious about it.

In few southern districts of KP though tribal distinctions may be sharp and equivalently also the cast distinctions.



I am not aware of this because was never affected by it. May be some families with big lands have this this attitude but most people (I mean original Pashtuns) only have small pieces of land and may don't care much who the person at the other end is. Social respect is very much there and rather has increased with the passage of time has increased with the passage of time due to new changes (education, urbanization, etc.) though inhibition into each other biradari may still be there (psychological factor).



Haha-what if I were not a paracha? I think that is inhuman. Every body deserves respect. Assume, I am not a paracha and am rather a blue-blooded Pashtun, I will still be standing with the down-trodden.

Tribalism is a great evil and an anachronism that must go away as soon as possible. Society should be run by men of ideas, wisdom, and higher moral principles than evil narcissistic people with retrogressive tendency.



That is interesting. What is by the way being a half-Kammi?

Don't get me wrong, its not like kammi people are persecuted but they are not equal in rural areas. As one step in cities things completly change but still kammi people will try to get rid of tag. The discussion was on ethnic identity and obviously in that case how rich or poor one is doesn't matter.

Only urbanization can get rid of tribalism and in 50 years you will see these things will matter less and less in Pakistan.

[Badlun]

Being Pashtun is good or bad is not the question. There are many other people who are better than Pashtuns in this world but if you are born as Pashtun, you are helpless to do away with this identity. You can change your religion but not your ethnic identity.

If you are Pashtun, you cannot change it. If you are not Pashtun, you cannot become a Pashtun.

Who is Pashtun then? The one born from Pashtun parents, especially Pashtun father. And this goes on till forefathers and previous generations.

Tribes are just classes of Pashtun society in geographical and ethnic sense. As family of one son of one father is one tribe but his uncle family is another tribe. Tribe is just an extended family. Tribes are flowers of the Pashtun tree.