The Indus Valley Civilisation and Dravidian Roots

[Happy Khan]

D

[Karachi]

indus script is very mysterious, it maybe pre dravidian, but nobody is 100% sure what it is. Dravdian language/culture did exist in most of south asia, this is proven by the fact that brahui language exists all the way in Baluchistan. Brahui people were not brought as slaves as some people think, they are the original surviving people of that area. Genetic tests shows that they are very different from the current Dravdian populations of South India. This means that the Brahui could possibly be one of the vary first Dravidian people, because Dravdian themselves probably came from Iran or west asia at some point. They expanded in to India later and mixed with the original Andamanese/Aboriginal population of south asia

The migration of different people in to South Asia is a very interesting thing to study. Not long ago, probably around 8000-10000 years ago, most of south asian population looked like this, before so many migrations/invasions from west asia/central asia started and started mixing. I created a thread about the different Adivasi groups

[Pakwatan]

indus script is very mysterious, it maybe pre dravidian, but nobody is 100% sure what it is. Dravdian language/culture did exist in most of south asia, this is proven by the fact that brahui language exists all the way in Baluchistan. Brahui people were not brought as slaves as some people think, they are the original surviving people of that area. Genetic tests shows that they are very different from the current Dravdian populations of South India. This means that the Brahui could possibly be one of the vary first Dravidian people, because Dravdian themselves probably came from Iran or west asia at some point. They expanded in to India later and mixed with the original Andamanese/Aboriginal population of south asia

The migration of different people in to South Asia is a very interesting thing to study. Not long ago, probably around 8000-10000 years ago, most of south asian population looked like this, before so many migrations/invasions from west asia/central asia started and started mixing. I created a thread about the different Adivasi groups

If you are trying to be analytical, why not tell the Pashtuns on this forum that their ancestors also looked like this?

lol

You seem to be one that appreciates science and human migrations. I just don't want to be having to read a double standard from you.

So let's read the truth.

Comment on this.

[Kushan Prince]

indus script is very mysterious, it maybe pre dravidian, but nobody is 100% sure what it is. Dravdian language/culture did exist in most of south asia, this is proven by the fact that brahui language exists all the way in Baluchistan. Brahui people were not brought as slaves as some people think, they are the original surviving people of that area. Genetic tests shows that they are very different from the current Dravdian populations of South India. This means that the Brahui could possibly be one of the vary first Dravidian people, because Dravdian themselves probably came from Iran or west asia at some point. They expanded in to India later and mixed with the original Andamanese/Aboriginal population of south asia

The migration of different people in to South Asia is a very interesting thing to study. Not long ago, probably around 8000-10000 years ago, most of south asian population looked like this, before so many migrations/invasions from west asia/central asia started and started mixing. I created a thread about the different Adivasi groups

Lol come on Karachi you know this is a pathetic theory. I highly doubt the people of the indus looked like this and 8000 years is still to early. What people tend to forget is that Dravidians are a caucasian people who spoke dravid languages and don't look that different then north indians. Even our tribal south indian does not look like any of these guys.

Also the invasion theories of india are completely blown out of proportion. Sure there was mixing here and there but not to the extent that a new group of people were created in the northern part of the indian sub-continent.

[Karachi]

Lol come on Karachi you know this is a pathetic theory. I highly doubt the people of the indus looked like this and 8000 years is still to early. What people tend to forget is that Dravidians are a caucasian people who spoke dravid languages and don't look that different then north indians. Even our tribal south indian does not look like any of these guys.

Also the invasion theories of india are completely blown out of proportion. Sure there was mixing here and there but not to the extent that a new group of people were created in the northern part of the indian sub-continent.

This is the most recent genetic paper on Indian/South Asia dna: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0808123833.htm

Majority of Indian dna was mixed between 1900 to 4200 years ago. This is where major changes occurred

Indian/South Asian dna is a mix of two very different types of population (ANI) and (ASI). Nobody is saying that North and South Indians are completely different. The only difference between the two is the level of ANI and ASI. North South Asians have more ANI then South Indians this is why they look different. Pure ASI is definatly Andmanese in relation. Andmanese population have ASI lineage, they dont have ANI


Andamanese Dna:

Nuclear DNA

Bulbeck (2013) likewise noted that the Andamanese's nuclear DNA clusters with that of other South Asians.[12]

A genome-wide study by Reich et al. (2009) found evidence for two genetically divergent, ancient populations that are ancestral to most persons inhabiting the Indian subcontinent today: Ancestral North Indians (ANI), who are genetically close to Middle Eastern, Central Asian and European populations, and Ancestral South Indians (ASI), who are genetically distinct from both ANI and East Asians. The Onge Andamanese were observed to be related to the Ancestral South Indians, and were unique in that they were the only South Asian population in the study that lacked any Ancestral North Indian admixture. The authors thus suggest that the Onge populated the Andamanese Islands prior to the intermixture that took place between the Ancestral South Indians and Ancestral North Indians on the Indian mainland.[13]

Y DNA

Andamanese males were found to carry five different binary D haplotypes, all of which had previously been observed on the Indian subontinent, in Southeast Asia and Melanesia.[17]
Unlike the Onge and the Jarawa, male Great Andamanese have an assortment of other paternal haplogroups besides D-M174. These clades include O, L, K and P-M45, which places them between mainland Indian and Asian populations.[17]

Mitochondrial DNA

Analysis of mtDNA, which is inherited exclusively by maternal descent, confirms the above results. All Andamanese belong to the subgroup M[11] which is distributed in the Indian subcontinent, where it represents 60% of all maternal lineages, but also in Africa and other areas west of India.[17][18][19] Given the insularity of the Andamanese, this has led geneticists to believe that this haplogroup originated with the earliest settlers of India during the coastal migration that brought the ancestors of the Andamanese to the Indian mainland, the Andaman Islands and further afield to Southeast Asia.[20]
Furthermore, on the Andamans, M4 occurs as a subtype also seen on the Indian mainland, whereas M2 occurs in two subgroups (M2 haplotypes 16344T and 16357C) that have not been observed on the mainland and are presumed unique to the Andamanese.[11]

[Karachi]

Also where did I say Indus valley folks looked like Andmanese? at least read the posts properly before commenting. Indus valley folks were most likely west asian in origin. The original Dravidian people also probably came from West Asia. This is what I said. Everybody who has come to South Asia, has mixed with the original (Andamanese) type population at some point, including Dravdians, who were probably one of the earliest (Caucasian) type people to arrive in South asia. This is why every south asian of today is a mix of ANI and ASI.

South asians are defiantly not a fully Caucasian people, even though the appearance maybe so. The (ANI) part of south asians is the only Caucasian part. The tribal Indians with the highest ASI defiantly do not look Caucasian

Does she look caucasian to you? she is a south indian tribal

[Karachi]

If you are trying to be analytical, why not tell the Pashtuns on this forum that their ancestors also looked like this?

lol

You seem to be one that appreciates science and human migrations. I just don't want to be having to read a double standard from you.

So let's read the truth.

Comment on this.

Pashtuns have 10-15% ASI according to genetic tests, so yes they do have at least some of this very ancient old dna of south asia, but majority of pashtun dna is still caucasian (85-90%) This is why they look different from South Asians and much more Caucasian. South Asians have much more ASI. Your Punjabis are at least 30-35% ASI, but still even Punjabis and North Indians are more (ANI) Caucasian, then they are ASI. This why the general appearance of Pakistanis, North Indians is much more Caucasian.

The tribal south indian woman I posted above, her tribe is at least 70% ASI, this why her appearance looks much more original south asian (Andmanese) type

[Kushan Prince]

This is the most recent genetic paper on Indian/South Asia dna: http://www.cell.com/ajhg/abstract/S0...24-8?cc=y?cc=y

Majority of Indian dna was mixed between 1900 to 4200 years ago. This is where major changes occurred

Indian/South Asian dna is a mix of two very different types of population (ANI) and (ASI). Nobody is saying that North and South Indians are completely different. The only difference between the two is the level of ANI and ASI. North South Asians have more ANI then South Indians this is why they look different. Pure ASI is definatly Andmanese in relation. Andmanese population have ASI lineage, they dont have ANI


Andamanese Dna:

Nuclear DNA

Bulbeck (2013) likewise noted that the Andamanese's nuclear DNA clusters with that of other South Asians.[12]

A genome-wide study by Reich et al. (2009) found evidence for two genetically divergent, ancient populations that are ancestral to most persons inhabiting the Indian subcontinent today: Ancestral North Indians (ANI), who are genetically close to Middle Eastern, Central Asian and European populations, and Ancestral South Indians (ASI), who are genetically distinct from both ANI and East Asians. The Onge Andamanese were observed to be related to the Ancestral South Indians, and were unique in that they were the only South Asian population in the study that lacked any Ancestral North Indian admixture. The authors thus suggest that the Onge populated the Andamanese Islands prior to the intermixture that took place between the Ancestral South Indians and Ancestral North Indians on the Indian mainland.[13]

Y DNA

Andamanese males were found to carry five different binary D haplotypes, all of which had previously been observed on the Indian subontinent, in Southeast Asia and Melanesia.[17]
Unlike the Onge and the Jarawa, male Great Andamanese have an assortment of other paternal haplogroups besides D-M174. These clades include O, L, K and P-M45, which places them between mainland Indian and Asian populations.[17]

Mitochondrial DNA

Analysis of mtDNA, which is inherited exclusively by maternal descent, confirms the above results. All Andamanese belong to the subgroup M[11] which is distributed in the Indian subcontinent, where it represents 60% of all maternal lineages, but also in Africa and other areas west of India.[17][18][19] Given the insularity of the Andamanese, this has led geneticists to believe that this haplogroup originated with the earliest settlers of India during the coastal migration that brought the ancestors of the Andamanese to the Indian mainland, the Andaman Islands and further afield to Southeast Asia.[20]
Furthermore, on the Andamans, M4 occurs as a subtype also seen on the Indian mainland, whereas M2 occurs in two subgroups (M2 haplotypes 16344T and 16357C) that have not been observed on the mainland and are presumed unique to the Andamanese.[11]

I agree with parts of this study, but lets not get carried away here. ANI apparently peeks the most in north west indian states like gujrat and rajhastan and countries like pakistan. Its precentage drops when you go deeper into north india. But most north indians carry native indian haplogroups like L, D, R2 and H and the lack of central and west asian haplogroups are not present in the majority of the population. A harvard study showed that both of them stem from the same origin descending from the same ancestors, and i can post it for you if you like. I'm not denying that there is no outside mixture in north india but it is mostly very little. The indo greek kingdom ruled india for more then a decade yet Greek halpogroups like J2 are non-existing there.

Anyways looks are more important anyways. Lets be honest, how different do these 2 really look from each other?

[HalloIsBack]

a new thread about skin colour

my forearms became darker in the last week
so to which race do i belong?

[Karachi]

@Hallo

Watch the video, its historical facts that disaprove how Pakistan links itself to Indus Valley Civilisation [apart from Bruihi People]

are you indian?

Pakistanis are linked with Indus civilization, their ancestors were from the Indus, so are people of North india. Just because Pakistanis speak (indo aryan) languages today, doesn't mean there is no linkage. In fact I would say that the rural people of Punjab and Sindh are the most connected with Indus. The ancestors of present day pakistanis probably spoke dravdian or proto dravdian languages before the arrival of indo aryan languages

[Karachi]

a new thread about skin colour

my forearms became darker in the last week
so to which race do i belong?

This is not about skin colour, but history and migrations of people to South Asia

[Friends of Baloch]

are you indian?

Pakistanis are linked with Indus civilization, their ancestors were from the Indus, so are people of North india. Just because Pakistanis speak (indo aryan) languages today, doesn't mean there is no linkage. In fact I would say that the rural people of Punjab and Sindh are the most connected with Indus. The ancestors of present day pakistanis probably spoke dravdian or proto dravdian languages before the arrival of indo aryan languages

Punjabi language has a Dravidian substratum and of all the so-called Indo-Aryan languages is the one that has retained most strongest its original Dravidian phonology. This is not surprising as historically there has been a high population density of people living along the Indus river that has been impossible to physically displace by invaders.

There is a very clear close relationship in the phonology of Indo-Aryan and Dravidian languages. Just compare here this Paki Punjabi song and the Tamil one below.

PUNJABI BOLIYA - PTV SONG -PUNJABI FOLK SONG - BY BUSHRA SADIQ & GROUP - YouTube

Aasayila pathikatti Songs by Enga Ooru Kavalkaran tamil video.mp4 By Nataraj Pallathur - YouTube

Now compare them to a similar style of folk song in Persian language (below) which has zero relationship to Dravidian or any Indian language.

You can hear for yourself that Punjabi and Tamil are clearly much more related to each other phonologically. This is because of the underlying Dravidian substratum of modern Indo-Aryan languages, especially Punjabi.

Googoosh - Ahooye Eshgh | گوگوش - آهوی عشق - YouTube

[tor_khan]

[MENTION=17351]Friends of Baloch[/MENTION]

I don't know what the exact point is being made to try to link Panjabi with Tamil. I could argue that by virtue of Urdu I can understand a good proportion of Panjabi. I have dealt with numbers of people over the years who have spoken various dialects of Panjabi in conversations with them where I have used Urdu meaning that the two languages are fairly comprehensible. It is an entirely different matter that Panjabis on the whole are ashamed of their language or that their dominance of Pakistan makes them inconsiderate of others. But to equate Panjabi to Tamil stretches the reality. If a Tamil suddenly launched into conversation with me, there's zero chance of me understanding most of what they say.

On the point of this thread however if there is that distancing between modern Dravidian languages and the site of the original Indus civilisation, then it could be argued that the contemporary residents around the Indus were not there during the Indus Valley Civilisation. The claim that [MENTION=2329]Karachi[/MENTION] is making might be challenged.

[Kushan Prince]

Punjabi language has a Dravidian substratum and of all the so-called Indo-Aryan languages is the one that has retained most strongest its original Dravidian phonology. This is not surprising as historically there has been a high population density of people living along the Indus river that has been impossible to physically displace by invaders.

There is a very clear close relationship in the phonology of Indo-Aryan and Dravidian languages. Just compare here this Paki Punjabi song and the Tamil one below.

PUNJABI BOLIYA - PTV SONG -PUNJABI FOLK SONG - BY BUSHRA SADIQ & GROUP - YouTube

Aasayila pathikatti Songs by Enga Ooru Kavalkaran tamil video.mp4 By Nataraj Pallathur - YouTube

Now compare them to a similar style of folk song in Persian language (below) which has zero relationship to Dravidian or any Indian language.

You can hear for yourself that Punjabi and Tamil are clearly much more related to each other phonologically. This is because of the underlying Dravidian substratum of modern Indo-Aryan languages, especially Punjabi.

Googoosh - Ahooye Eshgh | گوگوش - آهوی عشق - YouTube

This is correct. I've also heard that indo-aryan languages on a whole have very close phonological similarites to Dravidian languages. I believe that it could be left over strains from their old languags that their ancestors spoke until the shift to indo-european languages but still retaining the dialect of their former languages.

[Karachi]

Sanskrit itself has Dravidian substratum. The sounds, the way things are pronounced are (Dravidian) in nature. The other indo aryan languages of the south asia branched out from Sanskrit