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How valid are the opinions of "Western born and raised" Pashtuns on this forum?

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  • How valid are the opinions of "Western born and raised" Pashtuns on this forum?

    Anyone who has at least some common sense will know that the majority of users on this forum, whether they are of Pashtun descent or not, are currently living outside of the traditional Pashtun homeland of AfPak.

    There are hardly any users here who post from Afghanistan or Pakistan.

    Generally, only such people who live in Pashtun land can comment on the ground realites, current situation, etc. but here we have a whole array of self-proclaimed teenage Pashtun experts who don't know anything about Pashtun langauge, customs, tribes, culture, etc. let alone having actually visited a Pashtun land. How can such people possibly think they know about Pashtuns when the only encounter with Pashtuns they have ever had was in the West?

    There are indeed a few members who used to live in Afghanistan or Pakistan, but now are in Western countries. The opinions of these people can be taken into consideration as they have previously lived in Pashtun lands, but there are even more users of PF who have never been to both Afghanistan and Pakistan.

    Everyone know that this forum does not represent the views of the average illiterate, poor Pashtun living in AfPak, but the views expressed on this forum are mostly those of the Pashtun diaspora, whom I think should be considered a separate community just like how the Japanese and the Japanese-Americans, for example, are both different in terms of culture, language, dress, etc. So this forum is mainly used by the Pashtun diaspora, such as Pashtun-Americans, British Pashtuns, Canadian Pashtuns, Dutch Pashtuns, etc.

    How can we take seriously the views of such individuals when they have no knowledge, experience or contact with actual Pashtun residents of Afghanistan or Pakistan?

    I am not a Pashtun but I have lived amongst them.
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  • #2
    I am sure most of the outspoken Pashtuns can't even speak formal Pashto, neither can they have a conversation without excessively relying on English and other foreign languages such as Urdu or Farsi.

    Yet they are online talking about what is means to be a Pashtun and what not.

    I'll tell you something, imagine yourself seeing people from this forum in a rural village in the Pashtun heart land. Most of them would have to hide from the common men and women and hide their own beliefs and ideas out of fear.

    Yet they claim to know what being Pashtun is all about.

    I have lived most of my life outside Afghanistan. It was only after I have spent some time in the village that I have realized how foolish we are here in the West. our entire image of Pashtuns is based on fairytales.
    Originally posted by Firdousi
    Never talk with Afghans about politics. All their political knowledge is limited to conspiracy theories, political demonization and contradictions. No logic, no reason.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Shamlawar Khurasani View Post
      I am sure most of the outspoken Pashtuns can't even speak formal Pashto, neither can they have a conversation without excessively relying on English and other foreign languages such as Urdu or Farsi.

      Yet they are online talking about what is means to be a Pashtun and what not.

      I'll tell you something, imagine yourself seeing people from this forum in a rural village in the Pashtun heart land. Most of them would have to hide from the common men and women and hide their own beliefs and ideas out of fear.

      Yet they claim to know what being Pashtun is all about.

      I have lived most of my life outside Afghanistan. It was only after I have spent some time in the village that I have realized how foolish we are here in the West. our entire image of Pashtuns is based on fairytales.
      I appreciate your honesty and sincerity. What you have written here is 100% true.

      The only info these guys have on Pashtuns is either in the form of stories passed down by relatives who came from these Pashtun lands or from the internet, which is not credible at all since anyone can say anything on the internet.

      From my experience, most Pashtuns I met, both the so-called "Pakistani Pashtuns" and the "Afghan Pashtuns" (I met both groups in Pakistan) care first and foremost about Islam, praying 5 times a day, observing "rozha" in Ramadan, etc. and gaining access to Jannah in the afterlife.

      They have little to no interest in secular culture or world politics (of course they care about their heritage and will go to great lengths to maintain their culture, language, etc. but they care about being proper Muslims above anything else), so the Westernized ethnic nationalists and agnostics, athiests, secularists present on this forum are a joke. So are the ones supporting groups which they have never even seen in person such as the Taliban. There is even a Pashtun communist here!!! LOOOOOOOL

      None of these individuals have a chance of being respected by real Pashtuns who will judge you firstly on how good a Muslim you are and secondly, if you are a "klak Pashtun" or not.

      I recommend all of you to take a trip to AfPak at least once in your lifetimes.
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      • #4
        Probably not terribly valid, but not entirely invalid either. I try not to get into discussions about culture and what not because I won't pretend to know about stuff that I have little grasp of. By virtue of being Pashtun whether foreign born or not, we all have some legitimate insight that non Pashtuns don't have, some more than others. Hell, many Pashtuns in Afg and Pak are not as "Pashtun" as we think they would or should be.
        There are people today who think that admitting God’s absolute greatness decreases the value and importance of humans in the creation, as if God and mankind are rivals competing in greatness and power. Meanwhile I feel that whenever our perception of God’s greatness increases, with it we become greater, because we are the creation of a great God.

        Sayyid Qutb

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        • #5
          Originally posted by randolph85 View Post
          Probably not terribly valid, but not entirely invalid either. I try not to get into discussions about culture and what not because I won't pretend to know about stuff that I have little grasp of. By virtue of being Pashtun whether foreign born or not, we all have some legitimate insight that non Pashtuns don't have, some more than others. Hell, many Pashtuns in Afg and Pak are not as "Pashtun" as we think they would or should be.
          Your comment is also very true. You are a smart guy.

          The last line, which I have "bolded" is also a reality, but those are mainly the elites who abandon Pashtun culture in favor of Urdu, Farsi and other foreign ideas/languages/cultures which are perceived as behavioral traits that give them a higher status when compared to the rest of the "backwards tribal Pathans". This is Particularly true in Pakistani cities and among Afghan elites as well.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by El Camello View Post
            Your comment is also very true. You are a smart guy.

            The last line, which I have "bolded" is also a reality, but those are mainly the elites who abandon Pashtun culture in favor of Urdu, Farsi and other foreign ideas/languages/cultures which are perceived as behavioral traits that give them a higher status when compared to the rest of the "backwards tribal Pathans". This is Particularly true in Pakistani cities and among Afghan elites as well.
            Pashtuns are by default, rural people. Urbanized Pashtuns are usually depashtunized.
            Originally posted by Firdousi
            Never talk with Afghans about politics. All their political knowledge is limited to conspiracy theories, political demonization and contradictions. No logic, no reason.

            Comment


            • #7
              Urbanized Pashtuns are not exactly Parisians. Lack of environmental infrastructure doesn't make one anymore Pashtun than someone with running power.
              There are people today who think that admitting God’s absolute greatness decreases the value and importance of humans in the creation, as if God and mankind are rivals competing in greatness and power. Meanwhile I feel that whenever our perception of God’s greatness increases, with it we become greater, because we are the creation of a great God.

              Sayyid Qutb

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by randolph85 View Post
                Urbanized Pashtuns are not exactly Parisians. Lack of environmental infrastructure doesn't make one anymore Pashtun than someone with running power.
                Thats not what I am saying.
                Originally posted by Firdousi
                Never talk with Afghans about politics. All their political knowledge is limited to conspiracy theories, political demonization and contradictions. No logic, no reason.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Shamlawar Khurasani View Post
                  Pashtuns are by default, rural people. Urbanized Pashtuns are usually depashtunized.
                  You are right. I visited a few Pashtun villages; mainly Swat/Dir, Kurram and Kohat.

                  De maa da "driver" po keli ke yaw speengeri sarrai wo, hagha weyayal che:

                  "Mung Pakhtana dalta po khpal keli ke kha yu. Ka Islamabad ya bel kharoono ta wlarrshu no bya de mung da plar nika dastor po damtob bande kharts krri."

                  In all these villages, I was showered with hospitality and food, however when I passed the house of a Pashtun from Mardan in Islamabad, the guy was standing outside and I was walking in the hot sun. This Mardani guy didn't so much as to offer me a glass of water.
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                  • #10
                    opinions are not valued by that scale. you mean to question the credibility of their knowledge regarding the conditions of living or political spectrum of the era that is being discussed. for that, you need to have lived or been born in afghanistan to have an accurate idea of what things were really about.
                    if an afghan was born or raised outside afghanistan and he has a sound idea of what things should be done in order to get things sorted out, his or her opinion is and should be valued for the ligitamacy of it. a good and genuine perspective or idea coming from anyone or anywhere is worth looking in to. just because you were born or raised in afghanistan does not mean that you understand what you are talking about or have the right to having the country blown in to bits and pieces just so you could have your peace of mind.
                    we were born and raised in war. we have been taught and are used to seeing and accepting things a certain way. maybe someone who has been spared the misery sees something that we missed. we don't have to leave it all for one or the other but surely we can learn to look in to matters collectively.

                    "To burn always with this hard gemlike flame, to maintain this ecstasy, is success in life."





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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DaZahroJaam. View Post
                      opinions are not valued by that scale. you mean to question the credibility of their knowledge regarding the conditions of living or political spectrum of the era that is being discussed. for that, you need to have lived or been born in afghanistan to have an accurate idea of what things were really about.
                      if an afghan was born or raised outside afghanistan and he has a sound idea of what things should be done in order to get things sorted out, his or her opinion is and should be valued for the ligitamacy of it. a good and genuine perspective or idea coming from anyone or anywhere is worth looking in to. just because you were born or raised in afghanistan does not mean that you understand what you are talking about or have the right to having the country blown in to bits and pieces just so you could have your peace of mind.
                      we were born and raised in war. we have been taught and are used to seeing and accepting things a certain way. maybe someone who has been spared the misery sees something that we missed. we don't have to leave it all for one or the other but surely we can learn to look in to matters collectively.
                      Harkala raasha, zuma graana!

                      You were born and raised in Afghanistan so your opinions in matters relating to Pashtuns are more valued than someone who wasn't born and raised in Afghanistan.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by El Camello View Post
                        You are right. I visited a few Pashtun villages; mainly Swat/Dir, Kurram and Kohat.

                        De maa da "driver" po keli ke yaw speengeri sarrai wo, hagha weyayal che:

                        "Mung Pakhtana dalta po khpal keli ke kha yu. Ka Islamabad ya bel kharoono ta wlarrshu no bya de mung da plar nika dastor po damtob bande kharts krri."

                        In all these villages, I was showered with hospitality and food, however when I passed the house of a Pashtun from Mardan in Islamabad, the guy was standing outside and I was walking in the hot sun. This Mardani guy didn't so much as to offer me a glass of water.
                        I have very little experience with Pashtuns in Pakistan. But the ones I know, the urban Pashtuns, the pathan type....well, they are like really annoying. But at least, they are religious to a certain extent.

                        Unlike Urbanized Pashtuns from Afghanistan. Oh no. They are really something else. They mock and ridicule religiosity. They associate piety with being brainwashed by Pakistani ISI.

                        Usually they can barely speak Pashto and they don't know how to count in Pashto. Their usage of excessive Farsi is so funny even Tajiks make fun of them.

                        I have noticed that Tajiks have less respect for a Persianized Pashtun than for a proper villager. The villager sort of intimidates Tajiks. But the " wanna be a tajik " type is seen as someone they can mess with.

                        Often times you see those urbanized Pashtuns who also happen to be nationalists and secularists arguing on behalf of Pashtuns with everybody. But failing to dress like a Pashtun. ( extremely tight pants, dirty-shaven and still claiming to be Pashtun)
                        Originally posted by Firdousi
                        Never talk with Afghans about politics. All their political knowledge is limited to conspiracy theories, political demonization and contradictions. No logic, no reason.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by El Camello View Post
                          Harkala raasha, zuma graana!

                          You were born and raised in Afghanistan so your opinions in matters relating to Pashtuns are more valued than someone who wasn't born and raised in Afghanistan.
                          besides the fact that i ****ing hate you, i would also like to remind you that i am in no need of you bribing me with you approval of my opinion and that when it comes to values or opinions, yours of mine happens to matter less than the gum stuck to the sole of one of my sneakers.

                          "To burn always with this hard gemlike flame, to maintain this ecstasy, is success in life."





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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by randolph85 View Post
                            Urbanized Pashtuns are not exactly Parisians.
                            i'm parisian.

                            Je suis de paktia

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by DaZahroJaam. View Post
                              besides the fact that i ****ing hate you, i would also like to remind you that i am in no need of you bribing me with you approval of my opinion and that when it comes to values or opinions, yours of mine happens to matter less than the gum stuck to the sole of one of my sneakers.
                              I don't hate you, why you hate me so much?

                              I was not trying to "bribe you", what the hell would I get out of that?

                              I wish you a long, productive life.

                              Pa makha de dalai dalai guloona.
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