Immigration---?

[Toramana]

I am bringing this subject again...want your opinion about this issue.

The more I think the more I get convinced that immigration is not a good option especially for Muslims looking at the present scenario and the things that may come in future. It doesn't bring much to the lives of immigrants especially first generation immigrants whether in terms of happiness and emotional or psychological satisfaction or material gains.

Rather most of the immigrants pass through much pain emotionally and psychologically. Most of the time, they become poorer by the standards of their native societies and loose all the social asset they build up over their entire lives before immigration. Alienation, loneliness, segregation, unemployment, etc. are what most of the times characterize the lives of immigrants. It is also not good for the host or native societies.

Immigration generally is neither good for the immigrants nor for the societies that they come from or they immigrate to.

I strongly feel that before it becomes more perilous for Muslim immigrants, they should return to the their native lands if possible (although, it may be unrealistic in many cases), and start working for change in their societies to build truly democratic, liberal, moderate societies based on knowledge and rationality. They should work for the intellectual and cultural transformation of their societies and the betterment of their economies.

With slight improvement in their native societies, they will be more happy than they are now. This is my conviction. I may be wrong though.

I need your opinion about this.

[faye]

i read, that in one suburb alone, in sydney, there are 130 ethnic groups.
lebanese muslims have been in australia for a long time and i have met some lovely lebanese who are content, living in australia.
i meet muslims very often, as i chat to them deliberately, to offer friendship and talk about their countries that i have been to. they are always friendly and tell me they are happy being in australia, whether studying or living.
people who hate the host country and it's people should find an alternative, for their own health and feeling of pride in themselves and for the good of the country that can't adjust to or disapprove of.
hate is a poison inside of a person, that will be sensed by those they are in contact with.

[Karachi]

it depends on the country, in Canada so far there are no problems for muslims. However other countries in Europe have major issues.

Over all immigration may be good or bad depending on individuals. But one thing is for sure, with time almost every immigrant and their families will loose their cultural identity, very few people can maintain that

[Toramana]

faye, with due respect, I will not agree. Immigrants no matter from whatever region or culture or religion more or less pass through similar experience. For example, I have heard stories of European immigrants (Scotland, Netherlands) very accomplished individuals that yearned for their native lands and didn't feel fully adjusted in this host society.

It is natural. It takes at least three generations to fully assimilate in the host societies, understand its culture, internalize its values, and gain acceptance and recognition in it. Then things also depend on how similar or dissimilar is your native society to/from the host society.

Then other things impact this all e.g., politics, conflict of views and values, international situation and relations, etc. Most of the immigrants that I know and who belong to different religions and native countries are not that happy and confident. Their foreign-ness limit their social mobility and the chances of their success. Age also counts as well as personality traits and characteristics and education.

Frankly speaking, despite the curiosity, I never gathered the courage to enter a pure European restaurant here. Somehow, I have the feelings that my presence would not be liked. I asked my Asian friend and the poor guy had the same fears.

In the charged/hostile environment of today, these feelings are becoming more intense. I and many immigrants esp Muslims even though being liberal feel that the atmosphere is not welcoming and that we are watched and being scrutinized---proving our innocence or harmlessness puts great stress on us---It feels as if it is an embarrassment...

Although, I accept it may be our own short-coming/limitation.

[Toramana]

I think with increasing globalization and better communication, we today have access to more or less the same quality of educational resources. Moreover, better and better universities and educational opportunities are now emerging near our own vicinity. For example, I found many Asian universities in the top world-ranking of universities lately.

If we could transform our societies on the path of political and economic reform, that would bring more opportunities.

[faye]

i am not sure what i said that you are disagreeing with toramana, but aren't you contradicting yourself in your fist rebuttal to me, from what you said about immigration NOT being a good option for muslims?

i am suprised at your saying you don't go into a cafe. i went all through muslim, turkey, iran, afghanistan and pakistan, on my own. do you think i didn't have to put up with some hostilities, predjudice and a million stares, during that journey?

[tor_khan]

i am not sure what i said that you are disagreeing with toramana, but aren't you contradicting yourself in your fist rebuttal to me, from what you said about immigration NOT being a good option for muslims?

i am suprised at your saying you don't go into a cafe. i went all through muslim, turkey, iran, afghanistan and pakistan, on my own. do you think i didn't have to put up with some hostilities, predjudice and a million stares, during that journey?

There's a difference Faye, I believe in being a traveller than an immigrant.

I think Toramana flags up a set of feelings, that I can understand to a point. Whether Muslims should stay in 'Muslim countries' is debatable, however, I think there is a case for saying that some aspects of the brain drain need to be managed so that home countries do not lose all their intelligentsia.

First generation migrants don't always fit in as comfortably as generation three. Generation 2 (my set) is the generation caught in the balance. You've got to be fairly balanced and self-aware to find your fit. I do self reflect and ask questions about identity. We look for different things in other people, so I consider myself flexible. Race has little to do with whom I choose as friends/associates, but I do look for people with similar experiences.

I am blessed to have had the opportunities that I have had, but I do think about the next generation melting into society and becoming rather 'bland'. Over the years I have found that I find I fit in best with people who have a sense of self awareness/culture about them. Like I say, I am very aware of how Generation 3 perceives itself and in general it is much easier when people are raised/eduated in their home patch to have some of the finer cultural qualities I identify with.

[faye]

i am not against immigration. i was only talking about those who cannot adjust themselves to a society they don't appove of or hate, would be better off, to find an alternative, if they can.
where i live, we have a swiss/australian man next door, an argentinian/australian woman with swiss/argentian/australian children, german/turkish/australian postman, eretrean/australian and his family, asian and german traders and coffee shop owners, african chef and more. aboriginals are the town controllers and there are no problems between us all.

[Toramana]

[Talal]

immigrate to yukon or northwest territories in cananda, no problems there

[khushal]

i am not against immigration. i was only talking about those who cannot adjust themselves to a society they don't appove of or hate, would be better off, to find an alternative, if they can.
where i live, we have a swiss/australian man next door, an argentinian/australian woman with swiss/argentian/australian children, german/turkish/australian postman, eretrean/australian and his family, asian and german traders and coffee shop owners, african chef and more. aboriginals are the town controllers and there are no problems between us all.

you should talk. your idiotic ancestors immigrated to a place where they didnt approve and hated so they killed the host society. And when I say idiotic, I am neither defending them nor excusing them, I am saying they were barbarians.

[JAMALUDEEN]

In Australia... even brits with their white skin.. do not feel part of the country.. with all the discrimination.. against them..

of course this is through.. speaking to many brits...who have felt discriminated against.. but not all Australians are like that.. most are very welcoming.. and they wouldn't say..racist bs..such as... if you can't fit in..then find an alternative...

Faye..why don't you find an alternative..if you can't fit in..

Australia was built by immigrants for.. immigrants... whether you like it or not..its a multicultural country...

IMMIGRATION IS THE REASON..WHY Australia is.. the way it is right now..

suck it up..

[faye]

you should talk. your idiotic ancestors immigrated to a place where they didnt approve and hated so they killed the host society. And when I say idiotic, I am neither defending them nor excusing them, I am saying they were barbarians.

well, since time is simultaneous, i will work on changing the past, you coloniser of america, you.
i'll see if i can get all the foreigners back to their homelands. then none of them will want to come here and live in humpies in the bush, chasing kangaroos and living with the natives. ok, sweetpie?

[faye]

Faye..why don't you find an alternative..if you can't fit in...

suck it up..

ok, wogboy.

[JAMALUDEEN]

bogan..

Afghans are not wogs.