video: response to khangul, toramana & soldat_amir

[DaMalakandGhar]

As for the general matters that you raise. Well, I totally agree with the opposition to the re-scripting of the language for lazy English-educated Pashtuns. I was, and am totally prepared to listen to a sound argument for the promotion of Pashto for educational purposes but have yet to hear a convincing argument for how a Latin-based alphabet can be used by all Pashtuns to read/write the language without it falling back into dialect. I have repeatedly asked for a written example, and this has not been offered. You actually made that point very eloquently in the thread dedicated to the subject, even before you took the matter to video.

I think that is an EXTREMELY ridiculous argument. From linguistic point of view, Latin alphabet like Perso-Arabic alphabet is just a set of symbols representing the sound inventory underlying Pashto diction. It is not that Perso-Arabic scrip or for that matter Latin script (alphabet) has better representational capacity abridging or suppressing dialectical variation and facilitating the writing of Pashto in standard form. We have the same problem with Perso-Arabic script as we can have with Latin script e.g., there are many symbols in the present Pashto alphabet based on Perso-Arabic script representing sounds that have no equivalent sounds in Pashto it was adopted (few centuries ago) without any deeper knowledge or scientific understanding/investigation of Pashto sound inventory.

Compared to Latin script, orthography based on Pashto-Arabic script is also unwieldy in the sense that letters have to be joined with one another to form words and sentences and in many cases vowels and accentuation/inflection information have to be represented by special symbols usually in the subscript and superscript positions. That makes its machine processing (graphic rendering) very difficult (not to mention very slow as well). Latin script in most cases does't have these weaknesses.

Also, sometimes you cannot escape the Latin script/notation e.g., if you are writing a book of mathematics or any science book, you have to use symbols based on Greek/Latin notation (which has an obvious advantage over notation derived from Perso-Arabic script as for as brevity and clarity is concerned). Just try writing a physics or mathematics book including complex formulas (integrals e.g.) and see how difficult it is to denote complex expressions with Perso-Arabic symbols . Latin alphabet will make translation of technical and scientific material easier. We should also note that more research is done world-wise on the machine-representation/implementation of Latin script compared to the archaic Perso-Arabic script, which gives it an additional edge over PA script.

The argument with regard to dialectic variation is also not valid because you will have this problem no matter what script you chose as I mentioned above. Further, Pashto dialects fall into two broad categories (not hundreds as some try to indicate here) i.e., Northern Pashto spoken in Peshawar-Nangarhar Valley(s) and Southern dialect prevalent in Queta-Chaman region sub-local or sub-dialectical variations notwithstanding. Latin alphabet catering to the needs of both these dialects can be conceived and easily implemented.

Historically as well, Perso-Arabic script has been borrowed and is not something original and integral to Pashto. Before that, Pashto might be written in another script e.g. Kharoshati. Why this misplaced insistence on some unbreakable relationship between Pashto and Pashto-Arabic script?

There may be cultural/ideologica/psychological considerations i.e., link to Islam or Pashtun history and so the emotional attachment to the present script behind opposition to Latin script for Pashto. But is such opposition based on objectivity and utilitarian approach to make lives of people easy and to do what is the right thing to do or is simply emotions. Why try to find Western conspiracy behind the move for Latin script-a pure utilitarian and academic issue? Just over the last century, how much of our cultural symbolism has changed? Is culture something unchanging and petrified in time or does it evolve pragmatically?

Last but not the least, why close room for innovation and experimentation? This is how creativity works and new and more useful tools/things are invented. Even if no useful output comes out of it, just for creativity and curiosity sake, the experiment should be encouraged (not opposed). The dilemma is, even if a secularist or liberal is ready to accept diversity, the closet-minded ideologies and religious-motivated conservatism (reactionary attitude) has no tolerance for diversity and pluralistic approaches to issues except their fixed stagnant thinking/views and solutions. Khan Gul is not calling to replace the present script ---just is trying to propose alternate script for Pashto but the doors are shut for new/ alternate solutions.

[Old School Killiwal]

I think that is an EXTREMELY ridiculous argument. From linguistic point of view, Latin alphabet like Perso-Arabic alphabet is just a set of symbols representing the sound inventory underlying Pashto diction. It is not that Perso-Arabic scrip or for that matter Latin script (alphabet) has better representational capacity abridging or suppressing dialectical variation and facilitating writing of Pashto in standard form. We have the same problem with Perso-Arabic script as we can have with Latin script e.g., there are many symbols in the present Pashto alphabet based on Perso-Arabic script representing sounds that have no Pashto equivalent because it was adopted (few centuries ago) without any deeper knowledge or scientific understanding/investigation of Pashto sound inventory.

Compared to Latin script, orthography based on Pashto-Arabic script is also unwieldy in the sense that letters have to be joined with one another to form words and sentences and in many cases vowels and accentuation/inflection style has to be represented by special marks by special symbols in the subscript and superscript positions. That makes its machine processing (graphic rendering) very difficult (also very slow). Latin script in most cases does't have these weaknesses.

Also, sometimes you cannot escape the Latin script/notation e.g., if you are writing a book of mathematics or any science book, you have to use symbols based on Greek/Latin notation (which has an obvious advantage over notation derived from Perso-Arabic script as for as brevity and clarity is concerned). Just try writing a physics or mathematics book including complex formulas (integrals) and see how difficult it is . Latin alphabet will make translation of technical and scientific material easier. We should also note that more research is done world-wise on the machine-representation/implementation of Latin script compared to the archaic Perso-Arabic script.

The argument with regard to dialectic variation is also not valid because you have this problem no matter what script you chose as I mentioned above. Further, Pashto dialects fall into two main categories i.e., Northern spoken in Peshawar-Nangarhar Valley(s) and Southern dialect prevalent in Queta-Chaman region sub-local or sub-dialectical variations notwithstanding. Latin alphabet that represent both these dialects can be invented.

Historically as well, Perso-Arabic script has been borrowed and is not something original and integral to Pashto. Before that, Pashto might be written in another script e.g. Kharoshati. Why this obsession/insistence with/on some unbreakable relationship between Pashto and Pashto-Arabic script?

There may be cultural/ideologica/psychological considerations i.e., link to Islam or Pashtun history and so the emotional attachment to the present script behind opposition to Latin script for Pashto. But is that based on objectivity and utilitarian approach to make lives of people easy and to do what is the right thing to do. Why try to find Western conspiracy behind the move for Latin script?Just over the last century, how much of our cultural symbolism has changed? Is culture something unchanging and petrified in time or does evolve pragmatically?

Last but not the least, why close room for innovation and experimentation. This is how creativity works and new and more useful tools/things are born. If no useful output comes of it, just for creativity and curiosity sake, the experiment should be encouraged. The dilemma is, if a secularist or liberal is ready to accept the closet-minded ideologues and religious-motivated conservatism (reactionary attitude) has no tolerance for diversity and pluralistic approaches except their fixed stagnant thinking. Khan Gul is not calling to replace the present script ---just is trying to propose alternate script for Pashto but the doors are shut for new/ alternate solutions.

You talk alot but can you develop said Latin alphabet that doesn't differentiate between dialects? No.

If you can, I'll shut up, but you can't because I couldn't and I am Irfan (look it up).

So sit down like a nice little boy and stop opposing the current Arabic script just becuase you hate Arabs and Islam.

[Manzareh]

These people want to change the arabic style alphabet to a latin one? these people want to destroy Islam, i dont know about anyone else but i can see wolves in sheep clothing. take a look at Turkey and how Mustafa Kamal changed the Arabic alphabet to latin to erase Islam, next they will be saying do the athaan in pashto instead of Arabic. These are the enemys of Islam be weary of these liars, we cant even trust them online with their multiple ideologies, usernames and accounts let alone in real life.

[Manzareh]

Thank you.

I had to go shot an 8th but the dickhead cancelled earlier. now the clown got his ps and then he hollered back at man and cut the video short so i made him wait. just as well, i dodged the bully van.

So how you gunna shot from a landline? go buy a mobile phone G lol

[tor_khan]

I think that is an EXTREMELY ridiculous argument. From linguistic point of view, Latin alphabet like Perso-Arabic alphabet is just a set of symbols representing the sound inventory underlying Pashto diction. It is not that Perso-Arabic scrip or for that matter Latin script (alphabet) has better representational capacity abridging or suppressing dialectical variation and facilitating the writing of Pashto in standard form. We have the same problem with Perso-Arabic script as we can have with Latin script e.g., there are many symbols in the present Pashto alphabet based on Perso-Arabic script representing sounds that have no equivalent sounds in Pashto it was adopted (few centuries ago) without any deeper knowledge or scientific understanding/investigation of Pashto sound inventory.

Compared to Latin script, orthography based on Pashto-Arabic script is also unwieldy in the sense that letters have to be joined with one another to form words and sentences and in many cases vowels and accentuation/inflection information has to be represented by special symbols usually in the subscript and superscript positions. That makes its machine processing (graphic rendering) very difficult (not to mention very slow as well). Latin script in most cases does't have these weaknesses.

Also, sometimes you cannot escape the Latin script/notation e.g., if you are writing a book of mathematics or any science book, you have to use symbols based on Greek/Latin notation (which has an obvious advantage over notation derived from Perso-Arabic script as for as brevity and clarity is concerned). Just try writing a physics or mathematics book including complex formulas (integrals e.g.) and see how difficult it is to denote complex expressions with Perso-Arabic symbols . Latin alphabet will make translation of technical and scientific material easier. We should also note that more research is done world-wise on the machine-representation/implementation of Latin script compared to the archaic Perso-Arabic script, which gives it an additional edge over PA script.

The argument with regard to dialectic variation is also not valid because you will have this problem no matter what script you chose as I mentioned above. Further, Pashto dialects fall into two broad categories (not hundreds as some try to indicate here) i.e., Northern Pashto spoken in Peshawar-Nangarhar Valley(s) and Southern dialect prevalent in Queta-Chaman region sub-local or sub-dialectical variations notwithstanding. Latin alphabet catering to the needs of both these dialects can be conceived and easily implemented.

Historically as well, Perso-Arabic script has been borrowed and is not something original and integral to Pashto. Before that, Pashto might be written in another script e.g. Kharoshati. Why this misplaced insistence on some unbreakable relationship between Pashto and Pashto-Arabic script?

There may be cultural/ideologica/psychological considerations i.e., link to Islam or Pashtun history and so the emotional attachment to the present script behind opposition to Latin script for Pashto. But is such opposition based on objectivity and utilitarian approach to make lives of people easy and to do what is the right thing to do or is simply emotions. Why try to find Western conspiracy behind the move for Latin script-a pure utilitarian and academic issue? Just over the last century, how much of our cultural symbolism has changed? Is culture something unchanging and petrified in time or does it evolve pragmatically?

Last but not the least, why close room for innovation and experimentation? This is how creativity works and new and more useful tools/things are invented. Even if no useful output comes out of it, just for creativity and curiosity sake, the experiment should be encouraged (not opposed). The dilemma is, even if a secularist or liberal is ready to accept diversity, the closet-minded ideologies and religious-motivated conservatism (reactionary attitude) has no tolerance for diversity and pluralistic approaches to issues except their fixed stagnant thinking/views and solutions. Khan Gul is not calling to replace the present script ---just is trying to propose alternate script for Pashto but the doors are shut for new/ alternate solutions.

You wasted an entire essay on me to tell me that innovation is important. I didn't actually dispute that in fact. I said that I had yet to see an example piece of text written in a Latin-based Pashto script that worked uniformly across the range of dialects.

Read your last line again and read the part of my posting that you quoted. I'm willing to 'listen' to a sound argument for script reform. I just need to see a working example. You guys pour so much energy into making the argument, without giving examples in your new script. It's kind of pointless, so perhaps I wasn't wrong to use the word 'lazy'.

[badmash_khel]

I don't know why we have to accommodate all the dialects. Just choose the most pure form of pashto according to research which will mostly likely be southern one and implement it. The KPK and Paktia and Waziristan people should forget about their dialect being the standard one. Yousufzai dialect is basically evolution of pashto and yousufzais themselves are from Kandahar originally so they should have no problem with it. Even though I don't speak Kandahari dialect I wouldn't mind it becoming the standard. Another solution would be to include equal number of words from each dialect and make it the standard form.

[Old School Killiwal]

I don't know why we have to accommodate all the dialects. Just choose the most pure form of pashto according to research which will mostly likely be southern one and implement it. The KPK and Paktia and Waziristan people should forget about their dialect being the standard one. Yousufzai dialect is basically evolution of pashto and yousufzais themselves are from Kandahar originally so they should have no problem with it. Even though I don't speak Kandahari dialect I wouldn't mind it becoming the standard. Another solution would be to include equal number of words from each dialect and make it the standard form.

There is no standard, so how do we know which ones to accomodate?

If the most "pure" means with the least loanwords, then it must be Waziri or Paktiawal BUT these dialects (Karlani) contain a large number of words alien to other Pashtuns, though not those from Paktika.
eg, "drumam" = "dzam" / i go.
"waksa" = "wo-gura" / look.
"ttkala / marai" = "dodai" / bread.

[badmash_khel]

There is no standard, so how do we know which ones to accomodate?

If the most "pure" means with the least loanwords, then it must be Waziri or Paktiawal BUT these dialects (Karlani) contain a large number of words alien to other Pashtuns, though not those from Paktika.
eg, "drumam" = "dzam" / i go.
"waksa" = "wo-gura" / look.
"ttkala / marai" = "dodai" / bread.

As I said, gather all pashtun language scholars and come up with standard Pashto. Try to retain the purest and oldest form. Ataturk purified Turkish from Ottoman Turkish which had large number of Arabic and farsi loan words.

People will still be able to use their own dialects but all literature and media should be in standard pashto. In informal conversation people can use their local dialect but when speaking to a diverse crowd of pashtuns only standard should be used.

[Old School Killiwal]

As I said, gather all pashtun language scholars and come up with standard Pashto. Try to retain the purest and oldest form. Ataturk purified Turkish from Ottoman Turkish which had large number of Arabic and farsi loan words.

People will still be able to use their own dialects but all literature and media should be in standard pashto. In informal conversation people can use their local dialect but when speaking to a diverse crowd of pashtuns only standard should be used.

All the more reason to promote Paktika Pashto, it already is a mix of all.

[badmash_khel]

^
I don't have any opposition to it if the scholars agree on it.

[Old School Killiwal]

^
I don't have any opposition to it if the scholars agree on it.

Who are these scholars? Do you have any names?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Personally I am waiting to see evidence of this alleged Pashto writen in Kharoshti. I keep hearing about it but nothing bears fruit and isn;t Kharoshti just a form of Aramaic i.e. semitic writing? So it would be more or less related to Arabic anyways.

[Old School Killiwal]

Personally I am waiting to see evidence of this alleged Pashto writen in Kharoshti. I keep hearing about it but nothing bears fruit and isn;t Kharoshti just a form of Aramaic i.e. semitic writing? So it would be more or less related to Arabic anyways.

This is a load of B.S. created by those Afghans who desperately want to be "Aryan".

[RevolutionThroughReason]

This is a load of B.S. created by those Afghans who desperately want to be "Aryan".

well not sure about being Aryan, but the idea that Kharoshti is the original Pashto script is unsupported by evidence. I mean why haven't we found a single Pashto document existing prior to the 12th century, in ANY format? The excuse of Pashto being an oral language is often used, but being that Pashto exists in a location where several other literate cultures existed, you'd have at least found some evidence from nearby relics which allude to Pashto as a language. Yet so far ......nothing.

[Old School Killiwal]

well not sure about being Aryan, but the idea that Kharoshti is the original Pashto script is unsupported by evidence. I mean why haven't we found a single Pashto document existing prior to the 12th century, in ANY format? The excuse of Pashto being an oral language is often used, but being that Pashto exists in a location where several other literate cultures existed, you'd have at least found some evidence from nearby relics which allude to Pashto as a language. Yet so far ......nothing.

The first time I heard this claim was from Toramana, so you can probably see how reliable it is.