The third russian-chechen war.

[randolph85]

Александр Емельяненко VS Магомед Маликов / M-1 Challenge XXVIII - YouTube!

[Tjanaparh]

Dear Randolph, why do not You go and inform Yourself?

I get angry when national conflicts are used to make propaganda!

First of all, Mohamed Malikov is Daghestani.
Second of All Yemelyanenko seems to be from Ukranian origin due to his family name.
Third of all both are Russian citizens.
This fight was done in the town whereI was born, in Astrakhan.
Where now is the Russian -Chechen war?
It is a fight of a Daghestani with a Ukranian - and?
It is a sports competiton!
If you have problems with Russia start please hating people like malikov, because most of fighting arts masters Russia has are from Daghestan or Ossetia.
And please - to get a real idea on the conflicts inside Russia, and on the peoples who live there - visit Daghestan and Chechnya and other regions and talk to the people and stop listening American, Russian or Kavkazcenter news. Learn a bit more about our Caucasian culture , about Russian culture and other peoples of Russia culture and than talk about conflicts, about peoples whose culture You now perhaps even do not know!
Russia has its problems and its cruel and negative sides in history, but there is no reason to use a simple fight for propaganda.
Stay on the trouth not on doubtfull interpretations please.
It is not different from what US media show about Pashtuns.
did You like it? Why You use the same level?
If You like our region inform Yourself .
if you simply need our region to liberate of your hat, than leave us in peace.
We are strong and mature enough to resolve our problemsa with Russia, Turkey, Iran and America and even between ourselves without that everytime somebody has to invest to hate eachother.

[Tjanaparh]

wow nigga did you just wrote all of that just for a boxing match ?

PS : isn't ukrainian the same ethnicity as russian and slavic kazakhs ?

how do you recognize (physically) an ukrainian from a russian except by his name ending in enko ?

Im not Nigga dear Al Hanif, hopefully we can conitune our discussion on the level we established. Physically you can sometimes even not distinguish much more distant nation, there are Afghans who could be physically russians, there are Arabs who could be physically Armenians. Russians and Ukranians are close ethicities, but are still different, but does it matter, would he even be Rusian. Dear Al Hanif - I was not the person who used boxing matches for political reasons. And I d'like to avoid that. It is from ignorance that hate and conflicts happen, ignorance shouldn't be ignored.


One other thing, who are slavic Kazakhs? Did You mean Kazak perhaps?
Because Kazakhs are Turkic people.

[Al Hanif]

Im not Nigga dear Al Hanif, hopefully we can conitune our discussion on the level we established. Physically you can sometimes even not distinguish much more distant nation, there are Afghans who could be physically russians, there are Arabs who could be physically Armenians. Russians and Ukranians are close ethicities, but are still different, but does it matter, would he even be Rusian. Dear Al Hanif - I was not the person who used boxing matches for political reasons. And I d'like to avoid that. It is from ignorance that hate and conflicts happen, ignorance shouldn't be ignored.


One other thing, who are slavic Kazakhs? Did You mean Kazak perhaps?
Because Kazakhs are Turkic people.

So it's impossible to tell if you are a russian or an ukrainian just by looking at them ?

Afghans who look like russians and Arabs who look like armenians are really few.

On the other hand, russians and ukrainians do look like each others. That's why i'm asking.

About kazakhs : I mean the ones who are slavic and live in Kazakhstan : for example Alexander Vinokourov.

Is he from the same ethnicity as Medvedev and Putin or is it another ethnicity ?

[Tjanaparh]

Ok. In Kazakhstan among Slavic people mostly live Russians. But there are also some Ukranians.
Do not think that all is such easy dear Al Hanif. But what has the way how people look like to do with that. Lezgins and Armenians look mostly same for example. It does not mean we are same people. Avars and Chechens speak on the other hand 2 completely different languages, Kumyk again other, Lezgin other and so on......

[randolph85]

Dear Randolph, why do not You go and inform Yourself?

I get angry when national conflicts are used to make propaganda!

First of all, Mohamed Malikov is Daghestani.
Second of All Yemelyanenko seems to be from Ukranian origin due to his family name.
Third of all both are Russian citizens.
This fight was done in the town whereI was born, in Astrakhan.
Where now is the Russian -Chechen war?
It is a fight of a Daghestani with a Ukranian - and?
It is a sports competiton!
If you have problems with Russia start please hating people like malikov, because most of fighting arts masters Russia has are from Daghestan or Ossetia.
And please - to get a real idea on the conflicts inside Russia, and on the peoples who live there - visit Daghestan and Chechnya and other regions and talk to the people and stop listening American, Russian or Kavkazcenter news. Learn a bit more about our Caucasian culture , about Russian culture and other peoples of Russia culture and than talk about conflicts, about peoples whose culture You now perhaps even do not know!
Russia has its problems and its cruel and negative sides in history, but there is no reason to use a simple fight for propaganda.
Stay on the trouth not on doubtfull interpretations please.
It is not different from what US media show about Pashtuns.
did You like it? Why You use the same level?
If You like our region inform Yourself .
if you simply need our region to liberate of your hat, than leave us in peace.
We are strong and mature enough to resolve our problemsa with Russia, Turkey, Iran and America and even between ourselves without that everytime somebody has to invest to hate eachother.

u got a lot of time on your hands, don't you?

[Soldat_Amir]

Dear Randolph, why do not You go and inform Yourself?

I get angry when national conflicts are used to make propaganda!

First of all, Mohamed Malikov is Daghestani.
Second of All Yemelyanenko seems to be from Ukranian origin due to his family name.
Third of all both are Russian citizens.
This fight was done in the town whereI was born, in Astrakhan.
Where now is the Russian -Chechen war?
It is a fight of a Daghestani with a Ukranian - and?
It is a sports competiton!
If you have problems with Russia start please hating people like malikov, because most of fighting arts masters Russia has are from Daghestan or Ossetia.
And please - to get a real idea on the conflicts inside Russia, and on the peoples who live there - visit Daghestan and Chechnya and other regions and talk to the people and stop listening American, Russian or Kavkazcenter news. Learn a bit more about our Caucasian culture , about Russian culture and other peoples of Russia culture and than talk about conflicts, about peoples whose culture You now perhaps even do not know!
Russia has its problems and its cruel and negative sides in history, but there is no reason to use a simple fight for propaganda.
Stay on the trouth not on doubtfull interpretations please.
It is not different from what US media show about Pashtuns.
did You like it? Why You use the same level?
If You like our region inform Yourself .
if you simply need our region to liberate of your hat, than leave us in peace.
We are strong and mature enough to resolve our problemsa with Russia, Turkey, Iran and America and even between ourselves without that everytime somebody has to invest to hate eachother.

My Armenian brother

our friend Randolph is from Yankee-istan aka USA and enjoys watching Wrestling(semi naked Christian men pretending to fight eachother). He probably doesnt even know where Dagestan is, he assumes the people of Muslim parts of Russia are like Afghans or Pakistanis.

Islam in Russia is very soft in its form, and most people consider Militant Islam in Russia and its Muslim parts as Wahabism and nothing to do with their Soft Sufi Islamic Mystical traditions.

He probably has no idea about Muslim history in Russia, and how many Muslims fought alongside even the most nationalistic Cossack units throughout Russia's history, he probably doesnt even know about how Muslim women would work extra hours to supply food for Russian soldiers on the frontline against German SS units. Does he even know, the amount of Muslim Tartar Generals/Officers who are in the Russian army, does he even know that a Muslim played a role in placing Putin into power.

Russia has always been great to its Muslim populations, even recently Russia has built one of the biggest mosques in Europe for its Chechen citizens. There are 100,000's of Muslims who live in Moscow alone and they feel proud to wave the Russian flag.

Islam in Russia is very progressive, and quite impressive, they have integrated in Russia very well, and you can find many Islamic Clerics in Russia who respect and will give their lives for the betterment of Russia.

Look at what Wahabis did to Russia and especially Chechnya, they brought a dangerous culture from Arabia, where they introduced Chechens to suicide bombing and public beheadings of even women folk.

Thats why most of the Chechen rebels during the first Russ-Chechen war switched sides to Russia, and realised the big mistake they made, when they saw their land occupied by foreigner elements such as Saudis and Turks.

Rondolph, I see no point in your Russophobic attitude just because your countrymen couldnt even keep Russia as a friend, but sided with Criminals(interim Govt(Peshawar Seven) who the minute Soviet Union withdrew, started launching rockets on their own people.

[randolph85]

My Armenian brother

our friend Randolph is from Yankee-istan aka USA and enjoys watching Wrestling(semi naked Christian men pretending to fight eachother). He probably doesnt even know where Dagestan is, he assumes the people of Muslim parts of Russia are like Afghans or Pakistanis.

Islam in Russia is very soft in its form, and most people consider Militant Islam in Russia and its Muslim parts as Wahabism and nothing to do with their Soft Sufi Islamic Mystical traditions.

He probably has no idea about Muslim history in Russia, and how many Muslims fought alongside even the most nationalistic Cossack units throughout Russia's history, he probably doesnt even know about how Muslim women would work extra hours to supply food for Russian soldiers on the frontline against German SS units. Does he even know, the amount of Muslim Tartar Generals/Officers who are in the Russian army, does he even know that a Muslim played a role in placing Putin into power.

Russia has always been great to its Muslim populations, even recently Russia has built one of the biggest mosques in Europe for its Chechen citizens. There are 100,000's of Muslims who live in Moscow alone and they feel proud to wave the Russian flag.

Islam in Russia is very progressive, and quite impressive, they have integrated in Russia very well, and you can find many Islamic Clerics in Russia who respect and will give their lives for the betterment of Russia.

Look at what Wahabis did to Russia and especially Chechnya, they brought a dangerous culture from Arabia, where they introduced Chechens to suicide bombing and public beheadings of even women folk.

Thats why most of the Chechen rebels during the first Russ-Chechen war switched sides to Russia, and realised the big mistake they made, when they saw their land occupied by foreigner elements such as Saudis and Turks.

Rondolph, I see no point in your Russophobic attitude just because your countrymen couldnt even keep Russia as a friend, but sided with Criminals(interim Govt(Peshawar Seven) who the minute Soviet Union withdrew, started launching rockets on their own people.

goodness,

i think u verbally just had sex with this guy.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

My Armenian brother

our friend Randolph is from Yankee-istan aka USA and enjoys watching Wrestling(semi naked Christian men pretending to fight eachother). He probably doesnt even know where Dagestan is, he assumes the people of Muslim parts of Russia are like Afghans or Pakistanis.

Islam in Russia is very soft in its form, and most people consider Militant Islam in Russia and its Muslim parts as Wahabism and nothing to do with their Soft Sufi Islamic Mystical traditions.

He probably has no idea about Muslim history in Russia, and how many Muslims fought alongside even the most nationalistic Cossack units throughout Russia's history, he probably doesnt even know about how Muslim women would work extra hours to supply food for Russian soldiers on the frontline against German SS units. Does he even know, the amount of Muslim Tartar Generals/Officers who are in the Russian army, does he even know that a Muslim played a role in placing Putin into power.

Russia has always been great to its Muslim populations, even recently Russia has built one of the biggest mosques in Europe for its Chechen citizens. There are 100,000's of Muslims who live in Moscow alone and they feel proud to wave the Russian flag.

Islam in Russia is very progressive, and quite impressive, they have integrated in Russia very well, and you can find many Islamic Clerics in Russia who respect and will give their lives for the betterment of Russia.

Look at what Wahabis did to Russia and especially Chechnya, they brought a dangerous culture from Arabia, where they introduced Chechens to suicide bombing and public beheadings of even women folk.

Thats why most of the Chechen rebels during the first Russ-Chechen war switched sides to Russia, and realised the big mistake they made, when they saw their land occupied by foreigner elements such as Saudis and Turks.

Rondolph, I see no point in your Russophobic attitude just because your countrymen couldnt even keep Russia as a friend, but sided with Criminals(interim Govt(Peshawar Seven) who the minute Soviet Union withdrew, started launching rockets on their own people.

Explain further. I will hear you out. Explain how a communist entity would tolerate a religious ideology? We see clearly that they did not in Uzbekistan to the extent that Russian soldiers scrawled on the walls of masjids: There is No God and Lenin is the Prophet.

So I want to be enlightened by you. I have read Karl Marx's Manifesto that he wrote with Engels and that repulsive piece of garbage tract did not comment on religion. Marx himself went on to comment, for the first time, on the opiate of the masses, but his full quote leaves some room for ambiguity.

The virulent Lenin variant of communism (if we were to borrow a term from you, we might call it the wahabist communism) on the other hand, condemned it.

In fact, Mullah Lenin passed a fatwa AGAINST religion in the soviet empire.

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/anti.html

Here is a well referenced discussion on wiki about soviet attitudes toward religion in general with each of the sources well documented:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio..._towards_Islam

As an example here is one of the references from a sociological journal:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/128810

Here is the Soviet policy towards Islam which wahabbite communist Stalin implemented

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_Soviet_Union

Here is one of the references:

"among the peoples of the former Russian Empire, where 10 percent of the population—some 16 million people—were Muslims. This brief article is a contribution to filling this gap. I shall try to show that Bolshevik policy from 1917 to the mid-1920s was radically different from the witchhunt that Stalin launched against Islam from 1927"

http://www.isj.org.uk/index.php4?id=181&issue=110

And you are generally wrong regarding the Muslim support for Russkey Stalin:

"Stalin also forcibly moved several small nationalities residing primarily in southwestern Russia (Chechens, Ingushs, Crimean Tatars, Balkars, Karachais, Meshketian Turks, Kalmyks, Germans and others) from their homelands during World War II, lest they rise up against him in favour of Nazi Germany.[8]
During Stalin's reign, Crimean Tatar Muslims were victims of mass deportation. The deportation had begun on 17 May 1944 in all Crimean inhabited localities. More than 32,000 NKVD troops participated in this action. 193,865 Crimean Tatars were deported, 151,136 of them to Uzbek SSR, 8,597 to Mari ASSR, 4,286 to Kazakh SSR, the rest 29,846 to the various oblasts of RSFSR.
From May to November 10,105 Crimean Tatars died of starvation in Uzbekistan (7% of deported to Uzbek SSR). Nearly 30,000 (20%) died in exile during the year and a half by the NKVD data and nearly 46% by the data of the Crimean Tatar activists. According to Soviet dissident information, many Crimean Tatars were made to work in the large-scale projects conducted by the Soviet GULAG system.[9]


So now, I am all ears, Randolph is riding the arc of history. As Afghans we have strong memories of the atrocities the Russian troops committed. What they set into play would pave the way for the subsequent muj atrocities when Sherzai and co came to power.

Had the Soviets entered your FATA and set up shop in Miran Shah would you be singing a different tune?

If Islamists have an ideology that you loathe and think is antithetical to Afghan's natural environs, how do you justify a sorely separated ideology such as communism hoisted by a people that were known for their oppression?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Also reference please regarding "most" commanders switching sides. In our past discussions and references there was no evidence basis for that statement. Rather the Chechen insurgency gained ground amongst the people and the commanders joined the resistance en masse

[Zmarak]

I'm generally avoiding this topic for personal reasons but I will say this. Soldat is accurate when he speaks of a "soft" form of Islam in the Caucasus. I knew many people there and believe that I gained realistic general idea of what the people are. The people I associated with were genuine Muslims whose entire life was dedicated to the message of the Prophet (SAW) and Islam but they were VERY different from the average Muslim in the Caucasus and I come to realize, they did not represent the general population. To be completely fair they seemed to be almost an extreme minority. Average "Muslim" in the Caucasus is world away from average Muslim in Afghanistan. Many of them are not immediately familiar with proper Salah and cannot even recite Al Fatihah. For me this was surreal and almost unbelievable as these are elementary things that I do all day throughout every day of my life and I assumed ALL Muslims did. I know a number of devout Chechens left Chechnya and Russia for various places abroad after admitting defeat and becoming disillusioned and depressed with situation of Chechnya. These types SHOULD be accepted as refugees in any Islamic land. Still, many remain there today and dream of establishing the Caucasus Emirate and gaining independence from Russia. The problem with that, in all honesty, is that they have almost no support from the general population of the territory they fight for, who mostly seem very apathetic and secular in mentality and lifestyle. They are the type of people who check the box "Muslim" on a survey but you would never be able to distinguish them from the kuffar in daily life. Chechnya is better in this regard than the other regions but still VERY different from Afghanistan.
A point that I personally believe Soldat distorted and is false is Chechens great love for Russia. Despite everything about common interpretation of Islam in Chechnya, MOST Chechens I encountered did not have a good view of Russia and Russians. They may not know a lot of things, but they seemed to know that they wanted nothing to do with Russia, feelings seemed to range from moderate dislike to passionate hatred and some seem apathetic but a tiny minority seem to have any good feelings towards Russian rule. Perhaps I didn't encounter the Pro-Russian Chechens that he speaks of. I was once on popular Russian language social networking site VKontakte.ru and even there NEVER saw the profiles of any Pro-Russian Chechen. The concept seems odd to me, especially when I remember the stories of Chechens forcing all ethnic Russians out of many of their towns and villages with violence. And these were not acts of the Caucasus Emirate or any mujahideen, this was done by common Chechens.
Edited to add - I still believe from my own observations that Chechnya itself has a much better chance at establishing independent Islamic state than any other region in the Caucasus and that could be the major failure of them focussing on an entire "Caucasus Emirate".

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I'm generally avoiding this topic for personal reasons but I will say this. Soldat is accurate when he speaks of a "soft" form of Islam in the Caucasus. I knew many people there and believe that I gained realistic general idea of what the people are. The people I associated with were genuine Muslims whose entire life was dedicated to the message of the Prophet (SAW) and Islam but they were VERY different from the average Muslim in the Caucasus and I come to realize, they did not represent the general population. To be completely fair they seemed to be almost an extreme minority. Average "Muslim" in the Caucasus is world away from average Muslim in Afghanistan. Many of them are not immediately familiar with proper Salah and cannot even recite Al Fatihah. For me this was surreal and almost unbelievable as these are elementary things that I do all day throughout every day of my life and I assumed ALL Muslims did. I know a number of devout Chechens left Chechnya and Russia for various places abroad after admitting defeat and becoming disillusioned and depressed with situation of Chechnya. These types SHOULD be accepted as refugees in any Islamic land. Still, many remain there today and dream of establishing the Caucasus Emirate and gaining independence from Russia. The problem with that, in all honesty, is that they have almost no support from the general population of the territory they fight for, who mostly seem very apathetic and secular in mentality and lifestyle. They are the type of people who check the box "Muslim" on a survey but you would never be able to distinguish them from the kuffar in daily life. Chechnya is better in this regard than the other regions but still VERY different from Afghanistan.
A point that I personally believe Soldat distorted and is false is Chechens great love for Russia. Despite everything about common interpretation of Islam in Chechnya, MOST Chechens I encountered did not have a good view of Russia and Russians. They may not know a lot of things, but they seemed to know that they wanted nothing to do with Russia, feelings seemed to range from moderate dislike to passionate hatred and some seem apathetic but a tiny minority seem to have any good feelings towards Russian rule. Perhaps I didn't encounter the Pro-Russian Chechens that he speaks of. I was once on popular Russian language social networking site VKontakte.ru and even there NEVER saw the profiles of any Pro-Russian Chechen. The concept seems odd to me, especially when I remember the stories of Chechens forcing all ethnic Russians out of many of their towns and villages with violence. And these were not acts of the Caucasus Emirate or any mujahideen, this was done by common Chechens.
Edited to add - I still believe from my own observations that Chechnya itself has a much better chance at establishing independent Islamic state than any other region in the Caucasus and that could be the major failure of them focussing on an entire "Caucasus Emirate".

Oh I agree whole heartedly. Most of the dependable literature shows that the Chechan people didnt even begin separatist aspirations until Russia was stupid enough to send troops into the country.

Its a very similar situation to Bosnia Herzogovinia. Many of the struggles are ethnic based and have more to do with the actions between local and state actors.

And I also agree with you regarding the religiosity aspect of things.

Its merely that Soldat exacerbates radicalism, and as Michael Scheuer points out, makes things worse for defeating radicalism when he allows various groups of people the right to a separate identity, but denies that right of self determination wherein an Islamic fiber of some sort exists.

This was exactly the qualm that these folks had with the narrative.

So in Soldat's worldview:

1) Washington is allowed to back China's oppression of Uighars.... Washington should back Russia in smacking down Chechen and Dagestani separatism... Washington should be backed in smacking down pakistan's hand and Kashmiri separatist hands in the Pakistan-India_Kashmir conflict
Washington is right on when it came to the arms embargo on the Bosnians... the Serbians were right all along. Gaddafi was a great man that deserved to be backed.

2) Yet Pashtun separatism is legitimate and everyone should die despite UN mandated lines that exist in all these situations. And, the catch 22 is that the separatism must only be in an irreligious, marxist form, or secular capitalistic form, but in now way reflect the indigenous conservatism of the Pashtun people. Yet he offers no comment on Washington's East Timor stances... yet Sudan's southern separatism is applauded as a victory of human ethics against Arabism... And Christian causes in Muslim countries are high lited.

Michael Scheuer: Osama bin Laden and Sudan - YouTube

Look at Central Intelligence's own stance and evidence on this. Pay special attention to about 1 minute 59 seconds in.

So in effect, what Soldat is saying is that Islam and Islamism is the enemy and that a watered down version that has little if any basis in Quranic literature is the only acceptable form he will come to terms with.

Correct me if I am wrong Soldat.

This is problematic because one has to be consistent in stances. Either we are noninterventionist and we let the chips fall where they may (i.e. we advocate that Washington stay out of all affairs of people so that if Israelis want to massacre Palestinians and deal with Iran we offer no comment... if Sudanese want to massacre the southerners and keept he oil fields, we offer no comment.. and if Chechens and Russians kill eachother to their heart's content we offer no comment).

But Soldat, despite being a generally nice fellow in other regards, does not possesses this world view. Rather if you take every even reasonable Islamist demand, e.g. the Islamist position on American Arab state interactions... the Islamist stance on XYZ, he decides that whatever they say must be automatically be ignored and ipso factor condemned. That is not a winning strategy. That is a strategy doomed to create more and more radicalism world round. In fact, as you see what Dr. Scheuer is saying is that it is the greatest windfall for the movements.

[Karachi]

I have never met a chechen or anyone from that region in my whole life, we dont have many of them here in canada, atleast where I live. I have met tons of Bosnian and other european muslims

[Zmarak]

I have never met a chechen or anyone from that region in my whole life, we dont have many of them here in canada, atleast where I live. I have met tons of Bosnian and other european muslims

In general, I think you must travel to Chechnya to interact with Chechens. That's what I did years ago. Very few ever migrated to the West. Most went to Turkiye and Jordan, there's a small community in northern Iraq. Some went to Waziristan but that's an entirely different story haha.

[Tjanaparh]

I have to answer short, unfortunately I couldnt read all your postings.
Dear Khushal, I think You should in this case distinguish. Chechens are quiet different one from the other. And te most related people in the Caucasus to me seem to be Avar. Chechens have a lot of their Pagan culture, that is quiet a cruel but in the same way deffensive culture.
However it is true that untill a few centuries ago, Islam was only a superficial cover in the Caucasus.
In fact Imam Shamil, Gazimohammed and Gamzatbek were fighting initially against that.
Many Chechens used Islam even only as a cover, as a uniting idea. People like Basaev for example were brave communists before they became inndependence fighters.

Well, about the rest.
Stalin first of all shouldn|t be taken as an example . He isnt Russian and did bad to almost every soviet nation, even to his own.

Generally in the Caucasus there are difficult relations. There are Chechens that like to be part of Russia there are others who do not like. However You shouldnt see everything as Russia/ Caucasians conflict!
There are enough conflicts between ourselves that are not better. We are a very different region with very different cultures.
Even there are enough mixed russian/Chechen families, what is not so easy for other nations for example.
History in the caucasus is quiet complicated to simplity it like western media do.
For this I would like to avoid propaganda issues on our region.
Fortunately we have here Amir and KHushal / who at least have a good idea on a part of our region. We have also Zelimkhan and me, who are from our region. If there is interest we can discuss our history.

However, If You may know my opinion. Even if russia did a lot of Bad things in our region, Russia and Iran are the only two countries that at least would be interested that to leave us live in peace with our culture.
A small Armenia, Chechnya or Adygea at the moment wont survive. We are all good fighters. But our region isnt stable to be independent, we need a lot of work and education on ourselves history to become a more stable region.
To know more about Caucasus really the best is simply to come and make a travel starting from north to south.
OUr people are mostly were hospital, so you can visit freely many places.

For the moment I finish my posting.
Best greetings to everyone