So with all the "shameful" vids being posted...

[khashayar]

[Alchemist]

Alchemist you make some good points but don't generalize about mahsud and wazirs. They are our brother by blood, any insult against them is insult towards all pashtuns. please edit your post. you can criticize individual movements or characters but don't generlize a whole tribes of some 1 million poeple. come on i know you didn't mean that.

Yeah,

heat of the moment. i edited out.

The Mehsuds are actually fighting the government of Pakistan.
And they are pashtuns. Also they are working with Mullah Omar ...supposedly...suicide attackers or not..they are doing what they can against the foreign invaders. They were giving the British a run for their money too.

[Alchemist]

Im pretty sure the Pashtun parties you are referring to are ANP and PKMAP, and both of them speak pashto perfectly fine. I don't see why you felt the need to bring that up. It is also ironic, no? Khaana the concept of the state and nation-state is very new, you can't apply those on Pashtuns, anymore than applying the label of Syrian on a Kurd. Had Pakistan not adopted an extremely counter-productive policy towards Afghans east and west of the durandline, there wouldn't have been an issue with being pakistani (whatever the hell that is). Nevertheless, don't confuse these terminologies. One can have a seperate nation and a separate citizenship. That was and is not the issue, never has been. The issue is, what is the point of this state, and furthermore what is the point of defending it, when it works counter to your people? That is collective suicide and a cruelty against one's people.

Pashtunkhwa was not colonized directly by the British, it was only the settled areas like Peshawar, the other areas had different situations. Those areas were formally under the influence following the treaty of Gandamak and Durand (both of them were barely 100 years under British). Not being Pakistani isn't a quality? I don't see your point, other than spite.

About Toranama...I won't speak for him. However I fail to understand your point. If we are Iranic, then Toranama isn't an oxymoron. How can he be?

Soviet-Afghan war was an entirely different issue, we shouldn't confuse things..especially when Pakistani patriots pride themselves over that point in history. They feel as if they had a hand in it (they are not right, but they did their deeds).

Everyone nowadays has to speak english to move up the social ladder. What is your point?

About Maseeds and Wazirs, highway banditry has been done by other tribes as well..why drag them? Second of all, don't speak of frontlines and insult Wazirs or Maseeds. These Qibaels gave their blood in all the anglo-Afghan wars...more than half of the ghazis in the third Anglo-Afghan war were from Pashtunkhwa, particularly from those areas. You shouldn't spit on their sacrifices. Mistakes were mistakes, and every tribe and side is to be blame. However truth be told, you, Manzareh, Luffy are not helping the scenario. You all jump at each other's throats. It doesn't help anyone, but shows why we are in a mess.

You have confused me.

So now I have more questions.

I have met PAkistanis who speak fluently Urdu. Act Pakistani. Carry the flag of Pakistan around and are wholeheartedly patriotic towards Ali Jinnah's Nation State. Only after much time has passed I have then Learned that these Pakistanis also speak Pashtu. So are they Pashtun or are they Pakistani? There are very few syrian Kurds. And this is the second time someone has tried to draw an analogy between Kurds and Pashtuns. Kurds chose to be under the leadership of Turks and Iraqies so now they have no home land. What they have snatched in Iraq, they can't even contain. They are split on what little they have. So in a way, it is a valid comparison...but it only applies to Pashtuns in Khyber. Not to Pashtuns in Afghanistan. Because they have a home. Khyber belongs to Afghanistan. Why don't you Pakistani Pashtuns abandon your pakistani raised leaders. Sever your ties from the past and start anew? Rather you wish to separate from Afghanistan AND Pakistan and be another kashmir? This is really confusing for me to understand.

How can you be a Pakistani Pashtun? I see that as a contradiction.

Well let me show pakistani pashtun leaders talking about their concerns:

YouTube - mashar mahmood khan achakzai assembly speech 2003 (1)

YouTube - Meray Mutabiq - Asfandyar Wali Khan (5th April 2009) - Part 1 of 2

It is not irony. It is hypocrisy.
For "pakistani pashtuns" to criticize Afghan Pashtuns for being "Iranic" or Farsi Dominated or influenced.This is a clear case of Projection.
I am not splitting pashtuns into two. Pakistani Pashtuns are confused. Not Afghan Pashtuns. Here you have Pakistani Pashtun leaders playing a game between the people that have elected them and the system for which they have to work. That system was set up by the british. Everything about Pakistan was approved by the British. So don't tell me Khyberkhwa was not colonized. Colonized means that the policies and institutions, and lives of the people are dictated by a colonial Power in a such a way that they work in the interest of the Colonizers. You are in denial if you don't admit that ANP and PKMAP HAVE to be pro Pakistan! And Pakistan is Pro Anglo! In front of your people they say "We are for Pashtuns all over the world" ..but when they get on Cameras that broadcast Nationwide...they appease Pakistan and the world. You admit that Pakistan has been and will always be playing hard ball against AFghanistan. And who are Afghans? Pashtuns. So Pashtuns in Pakistan are supporting Pakistan in their efforts for suppressing Pashtuns in AFghanistan? What is wrong with you people?
Isn't this the reason why the Taliban are now gaining power in both AFghanistan and Pakistan?
Arent the Taliban the ones who are actually working towards a real unity of Pashtuns? And they are not racists ...like your political pakistani leaders. And that is what I mean by a "quality" of Pakistani. To me, a Pakistani is a product of British Colonial Policy ...200 years ...100 years ...what is the big difference? You are colonized when you think you HAVE to learn ENGLISH, the language of the ANGLOS, in a non Anglo country, to move up the social ladder! That was my point! And there is no "IF" ...you are Iranic if you are pashtun. This is how you are classed by ethnologists and linguists.

Anyway...you are right...luffy and manzerah and I aren't helping at all.

I am still new to all this. You and others know better.. So share what you know. If i am wrong. I ll admit it. I can change my mind. I have nothing to gain or lose from this debate.

[Michin Khel]

You have confused me.

So now I have more questions.

I have met PAkistanis who speak fluently Urdu. Act Pakistani. Carry the flag of Pakistan around and are wholeheartedly patriotic towards Ali Jinnah's Nation State. Only after much time has passed I have then Learned that these Pakistanis also speak Pashtu. So are they Pashtun or are they Pakistani? There are very few syrian Kurds. And this is the second time someone has tried to draw an analogy between Kurds and Pashtuns. Kurds chose to be under the leadership of Turks and Iraqies so now they have no home land. What they have snatched in Iraq, they can't even contain. They are split on what little they have. So in a way, it is a valid comparison...but it only applies to Pashtuns in Khyber. Not to Pashtuns in Afghanistan. Because they have a home. Khyber belongs to Afghanistan. Why don't you Pakistani Pashtuns abandon your pakistani raised leaders. Sever your ties from the past and start anew? Rather you wish to separate from Afghanistan AND Pakistan and be another kashmir? This is really confusing for me to understand.

How can you be a Pakistani Pashtun? I see that as a contradiction.

Well let me show pakistani pashtun leaders talking about their concerns:

YouTube - mashar mahmood khan achakzai assembly speech 2003 (1)

YouTube - Meray Mutabiq - Asfandyar Wali Khan (5th April 2009) - Part 1 of 2

It is not irony. It is hypocrisy.
For "pakistani pashtuns" to criticize Afghan Pashtuns for being "Iranic" or Farsi Dominated or influenced.This is a clear case of Projection.
I am not splitting pashtuns into two. Pakistani Pashtuns are confused. Not Afghan Pashtuns. Here you have Pakistani Pashtun leaders playing a game between the people that have elected them and the system for which they have to work. That system was set up by the british. Everything about Pakistan was approved by the British. So don't tell me Khyberkhwa was not colonized. Colonized means that the policies and institutions, and lives of the people are dictated by a colonial Power in a such a way that they work in the interest of the Colonizers. You are in denial if you don't admit that ANP and PKMAP HAVE to be pro Pakistan! And Pakistan is Pro Anglo! In front of your people they say "We are for Pashtuns all over the world" ..but when they get on Cameras that broadcast Nationwide...they appease Pakistan and the world. You admit that Pakistan has been and will always be playing hard ball against AFghanistan. And who are Afghans? Pashtuns. So Pashtuns in Pakistan are supporting Pakistan in their efforts for suppressing Pashtuns in AFghanistan? What is wrong with you people?
Isn't this the reason why the Taliban are now gaining power in both AFghanistan and Pakistan?
Arent the Taliban the ones who are actually working towards a real unity of Pashtuns? And they are not racists ...like your political pakistani leaders. And that is what I mean by a "quality" of Pakistani. To me, a Pakistani is a product of British Colonial Policy ...200 years ...100 years ...what is the big difference? You are colonized when you think you HAVE to learn ENGLISH, the language of the ANGLOS, in a non Anglo country, to move up the social ladder! That was my point! And there is no "IF" ...you are Iranic if you are pashtun. This is how you are classed by ethnologists and linguists.

Anyway...you are right...luffy and manzerah and I aren't helping at all.

I am still new to all this. You and others know better.. So share what you know. If i am wrong. I ll admit it. I can change my mind. I have nothing to gain or lose from this debate.

You have raised some interesting and valid points, i have to admit it.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

You have confused me.

So now I have more questions.

I have met PAkistanis who speak fluently Urdu. Act Pakistani. Carry the flag of Pakistan around and are wholeheartedly patriotic towards Ali Jinnah's Nation State. Only after much time has passed I have then Learned that these Pakistanis also speak Pashtu. So are they Pashtun or are they Pakistani? There are very few syrian Kurds. And this is the second time someone has tried to draw an analogy between Kurds and Pashtuns. Kurds chose to be under the leadership of Turks and Iraqies so now they have no home land. What they have snatched in Iraq, they can't even contain. They are split on what little they have. So in a way, it is a valid comparison...but it only applies to Pashtuns in Khyber. Not to Pashtuns in Afghanistan. Because they have a home. Khyber belongs to Afghanistan. Why don't you Pakistani Pashtuns abandon your pakistani raised leaders. Sever your ties from the past and start anew? Rather you wish to separate from Afghanistan AND Pakistan and be another kashmir? This is really confusing for me to understand.

How can you be a Pakistani Pashtun? I see that as a contradiction.

Well let me show pakistani pashtun leaders talking about their concerns:

YouTube - mashar mahmood khan achakzai assembly speech 2003 (1)

YouTube - Meray Mutabiq - Asfandyar Wali Khan (5th April 2009) - Part 1 of 2

It is not irony. It is hypocrisy.
For "pakistani pashtuns" to criticize Afghan Pashtuns for being "Iranic" or Farsi Dominated or influenced.This is a clear case of Projection.
I am not splitting pashtuns into two. Pakistani Pashtuns are confused. Not Afghan Pashtuns. Here you have Pakistani Pashtun leaders playing a game between the people that have elected them and the system for which they have to work. That system was set up by the british. Everything about Pakistan was approved by the British. So don't tell me Khyberkhwa was not colonized. Colonized means that the policies and institutions, and lives of the people are dictated by a colonial Power in a such a way that they work in the interest of the Colonizers. You are in denial if you don't admit that ANP and PKMAP HAVE to be pro Pakistan! And Pakistan is Pro Anglo! In front of your people they say "We are for Pashtuns all over the world" ..but when they get on Cameras that broadcast Nationwide...they appease Pakistan and the world. You admit that Pakistan has been and will always be playing hard ball against AFghanistan. And who are Afghans? Pashtuns. So Pashtuns in Pakistan are supporting Pakistan in their efforts for suppressing Pashtuns in AFghanistan? What is wrong with you people?
Isn't this the reason why the Taliban are now gaining power in both AFghanistan and Pakistan?
Arent the Taliban the ones who are actually working towards a real unity of Pashtuns? And they are not racists ...like your political pakistani leaders. And that is what I mean by a "quality" of Pakistani. To me, a Pakistani is a product of British Colonial Policy ...200 years ...100 years ...what is the big difference? You are colonized when you think you HAVE to learn ENGLISH, the language of the ANGLOS, in a non Anglo country, to move up the social ladder! That was my point! And there is no "IF" ...you are Iranic if you are pashtun. This is how you are classed by ethnologists and linguists.

Anyway...you are right...luffy and manzerah and I aren't helping at all.

I am still new to all this. You and others know better.. So share what you know. If i am wrong. I ll admit it. I can change my mind. I have nothing to gain or lose from this debate.

Kurds didn't choose to be part of any of these states, they were promised their own, but the Sykes-picout agreement rendered their lands divided. Again the contradiction has to do with the actions and policies of the state, not the state itself. You have to be clear about that.

Those videos were taken during a parliamentary speech that had to do with criticizing the state, particularly the murder of Bugti, the baloch nationalist leader. BTW both of these leaders, despite my issues with certain things they say, consider themselves Afghan and have popularized the terms like "Lar au bar Yaw Afghan". BTW How would you know what they are saying anyways, can you understand it?

Those who criticize Afghanistan Pashtuns are not always wrong about a few examples, like some Afghansitan Pashtuns are not always wrong when they criticize some Pashtuns from Peshawar. The fact of the matter is, the urbanized Pashtuns in cities like Peshawar and Kabul have been heavily influenced by these other groups. However, what you and Manzareh or Luffy do are entirely counter-productive.

Who says they support the suppression of pashtuns in Afghanistan?

[Alchemist]

^ Yes I understand urdu...after all urdu is hindi and the soft power of bollywood has taught me so. But most of Urdu is borrowed from Farsi so it aint that hard to learn...


In any case. The Kurds did not accept the Treaty of Sevre. This is a historical fact.

Still I get the message. "Don't listen to Alchemist, he is not a pashtun". Fine. Don't listen to me. But don't listen to Pakistanies either...and I mean any type of hyphenated Pakistani.

[Laila]

I'll share it anyway, these always crack me up, especially the second part:

YouTube - Tarjuman part1

YouTube - Tarjuman part2

Ha ha ha too funny.....great share.

[Toramana]

About Toranama...I won't speak for him. However I fail to understand your point. If we are Iranic, then Toranama isn't an oxymoron. How can he be?

I don't know why has this proud Arab of noble Hashamite descent yet outwardly an (Persian-speaking) "Afghan" singled me out (rather targeted me to use the more appropriate word) here...? I can't think any other reason for this except my Pashtun nationalism...Anyhow, I will see him tommorrow when I have the time...

[fzpz]

This is all very hilarious. Alchemist, but the brave pashtuns like the tpp and taliban that are going to be jannah destined are all Paki proxies A very confused lot here.

[Alchemist]

This is all very hilarious. Alchemist, but the brave pashtuns like the tpp and taliban that are going to be jannah destined are all Paki proxies A very confused lot here.

I think you are confused here.

Because you are saying that the PAkistanies are aiding the Taliban in the destruction of Pakistan...

basically...pakistan is helping taliban to give america an excuse to bomb pakistan...

I guess when you have a low estimate of a people you can easily say that the pakistanies are actually that dumb to do that.

toromana ...pashtun nationalism?
What does that even mean?
What is pashtun about you?
You hate the culture, you abandoned the religion. Instead you adore the west, the anglos and wish pashtuns to emulate them.
No, you are just racist.


That is all.

[fzpz]

More confusion, the brave pashtuns/afghans are all playing into the hands of the pakjabis and nato and russians and serving their interests. you afghans delude yourselves into thinking you're being all brave and independent, but you're used and confused by all sides. all the orphans and refugees and purity and graveyards of empires will all be for naught This is fun. You're confused AND getting emotional. I was assured it was just you letting off steam, tajiki afghan.

[Alchemist]

For the record, I am not tajik. Just Afghan.

Anyway, I am glad that out of all of us brave pashtun/afghans, you are not deluded.

I guess it is in the interest of nato to have the taliban kill them and fight them. As it was in the interest of Russia to get their tanks and helicoptors blown up ...and retreat back to where they came from. You are right. They probably planned that too. Just like how Nato is planning it's exit too. And the british too...yeah I guess us brave afghans are just "playful" like that .. life for us is just for play...what the heck..better spend it fighting and adventuring around the world then sit cozy in a little bubble behind a computer for the rest of our lives ...playing video games of war and watching movies of war ...and talking about politics ...but never participating in it ... we envy you fzpz. Really.

[fzpz]

Now i just feel sorry for you. It was sarcasm nitwit, given your blabbering.

Btw, afghan means pashtun!

[BLS_1919v2.0]

^ Yes I understand urdu...after all urdu is hindi and the soft power of bollywood has taught me so. But most of Urdu is borrowed from Farsi so it aint that hard to learn...


In any case. The Kurds did not accept the Treaty of Sevre. This is a historical fact.

Still I get the message. "Don't listen to Alchemist, he is not a pashtun". Fine. Don't listen to me. But don't listen to Pakistanies either...and I mean any type of hyphenated Pakistani.

I don't believe I said that or mentioned your identity here. If you consider yourself anything I will take your word for it and that is that. I am concerned with the arguments you presented. Nothing personal.

[AnGaaR]

Azadiiiiiiiiiiiiii shwa







Now men,women and audience will dance together.
Democracy da pa Pakistan kai