COMPLAINT: Members in Pashtunforums are being silly and pathetic accusing me of stuff

[شمله ور خراساني]

As salaamu aleikoum,

I joined this forum after I received a PM on another forum from a member of this forum. That's how I got to know about Pashtunforums. So I joined this forum.

Ever since I became a member, my views and my comments to other peoples views and statements have been attacked subsequently by a bunch of immature and childish attempts by most active members of this forum.

I've been accused of being a terrorist Salafi JIhadi brainwashed by Arabs who is trying to undermine Pashtun culture and values. I've been accused of spreading propaganda against Pashtun culture and values. And many insults and accusation in the same line.

I think it is very childish and immature behavior on the part of members like MakeenMaseed, Khushal Khattak, Osho and others to go around and insult me and accuse me of things. We are all grown ups. And we should all learn to deal with people with conflicting beliefs and ideas. Insulting each other and accusing each other of things is very stupid and immature. It only describes how uncivilized and pathetic the Pashtuns are among each other.

And I think the moderators on this forum are doing a lousy job moderating this forum. It is not a custom on public forums to allow people to go around and personally attack people. I've been around on public forums since 2003. I know how to deal with people. And I am not planning on quitting or leaving this forum.

I want the forum moderators to start acting like the suppose to. And issue warnings to members who keep insulting people and attacking people and diverging from the discussion into a personal vendetta against any member for any particular reason.

It seriously damages the overall sphere on the forum. And it certainly does not benefit any of us. And as a result people will withdraw from discussions and debates on this forum and stop posting here.

Just to make a few things clear about myself before you bunch of little kids start posting all sorts of crap here.

I am a supporter of Islamic Shari'ah in Afghanistan. I am against all foreign mingling in our country. I do not support Pakistan or ISI. Neither do I condone killing of civilians. I do not believe the armed opposition in Afghanistan and Pakistan deliberately target their own Muslim civilians. I believe all deliberately targeting of civilians in Afghanistan and Pakistan is the work of spy agencies who want to prevent people from supporting the opposition.

However, I do not deny that the armed opposition do occasionally kill civilians. And I condemn the killing of any single soul who has not done anything wrong.

I am not a nationalist. I think nationalism is stupidity and ignorance. Nationalism is an invention of German, Austrian, Swiss and French philosophers of 18th century. Nationalism has spread through out Europe centuries ago to create separate nation-states. Pashtuns taking pride in being nationalists is just evidence of their stupidity. Because we are not a nation. Nation and nationality in the sense it is used by Western society is alien to our customs and culture. The only resemblance it has to what we have in Afghanistan is tribalism. Hatred for others and glorification of yourself and your kin.

I consider myself in some perspectives as a patriot. I love my country and my people. But I do not glorify them. Because I am aware of all of their faults. We suffer from a very primitive culture, customs, traditions and mentality that is preventing all of us from progress. We have crime, corruption, dishonesty, abuse, nationalism and treasury among us more than we have virtues like patriotism, decency etc.

By simply denying our own faults and problems we only prolong our misery and ill fate.

Allah does not improve the state of any people unless they start working for improvement themselves.

[Admin Khan]

Firstly,
Pretty much every member that has attacked you has been warned. It would have been so much better if you could have just PMed me right now.


Most of the members are now on their final warning.

[Dinosaur Khan]

I have no problem with you and your views sagar.
I understand your outburst. but you urself has said to me in a thread that you should'nt get emotional in discussion, now u have lost temper. Do u remember me when u post thread about khushal baba, i confirmed the facts u mentioned (though i did'nt agree with u)
Stay with us and ignore provokations.

[شمله ور خراساني]

I am not leaving. Neither did I loose temper.

The reason why I made this thread is because I want other members to know how I think about the stuff that has been going on.

Obviously I could PM admin. But I didn't. Because I think this is a problem that should be out in the open.

I have lived in the Netherlands for about 15 years. One great thing I learned from this people is their openness and transparency in certain matters.

If there is any problem, they bring it out in the open so that everybody knows what people have on their mind. And speaking out about things that bother you are good custom. We should do that in a civilized manner.

[Nokia_Apridy]

Sangar rora mung da Pashtun forum da Arkha bakhna ghwaru

ka da zra darta cha azar karay wi INSHALLAH bya ba darla sok

khafgan na darkey Staso mung ta WEYAR ya chay staso ghunday

Khalak mung sra pa PAshtun Forum ka de.....

[شمله ور خراساني]

grano kheindo wrono,

za khafa na yam. Aw za zer na khafa kegam.

De staso de bakhene ghukhtane ta arr nishta.

Bya ham kor wadan

wasalaam

[IamDZJ]

be a man and quit whining

[Khushal Khan Khattak]

Thanx for including my name in there though I dont understand why you did so.

Still my sincere apologies for any intentional and un intentional harm on my part to your being.

Here is my sincere request and answer of sorts.

I remember the time when you first came here and posted some religious material here, to which I replied somewhat:

"Posting info about our religion is good, posting copy pastas and sermons about specific sects and then saying this is right only is NOT. What this does is spread only division. It always leads to bitterness and sadness. Why spread division when you can unite with common things."

Again by posting material that trickles down to the level of a singular viewpoint, what one says is that only I am right, all others are wrong. This leads to fighting.

A fresh example of your handiwork. In your thread about Waliullah, just see what a responder said to your post:

Also, WHY Should we trust what's being said? That's obviously this one team's or one PERSON's understanding of sainthood or what a waliullah is; why should I trust this view or give it any more thought than I should to an opposing view?

this >>

That's obviously this one team's or one PERSON's understanding

See, you have arrived at a fight, Why?

You chose not the common things between us but things that produce friction.

I have just one question for you:

WHY?



The solution: I request Admin and Sangar and any others, do not post or allow material about Islam that declares this group is right, that one is wrong. I am a Sunni hanafi, but I can understand there are people here with other beliefs/sects. Such material always leads to dieffernces and bitterness. Post only Quran and Sahih Ahadith, no commentaries by any one person.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Thanx for including my name in there though I dont understand why you did so.

Still my sincere apologies for any intentional and un intentional harm on my part to your being.

Here is my sincere request and answer of sorts.

I remember the time when you first came here and posted some religious material here, to which I replied somewhat:

"Posting info about our religion is good, posting copy pastas and sermons about specific sects and then saying this is right only is NOT. What this does is spread only division. It always leads to bitterness and sadness. Why spread division when you can unite with common things."

Again by posting material that trickles down to the level of a singular viewpoint, what one says is that only I am right, all others are wrong. This leads to fighting.

A fresh example of your handiwork. In your thread about Waliullah, just see what a responder said to your post:



this >>



See, you have arrived at a fight, Why?

You chose not the common things between us but things that produce friction.

I have just one question for you:

WHY?



The solution: I request Admin and Sangar and any others, do not post or allow material about Islam that declares this group is right, that one is wrong. I am a Sunni hanafi, but I can understand there are people here with other beliefs/sects. Such material always leads to dieffernces and bitterness. Post only Quran and Sahih Ahadith, no commentaries by any one person.

You are wrong. THe thread I made regarding sainthood provides clear proof from the Qur'an and sunnah which nobody could reject. Unless people disbelief in the authenticity of Qur'an.

[Roshina]

I don't believe in insults. But if I remember correctly, YOU have issued insults upon many members here. For instance, you think that it's "stupid" and "ignorant" to be a nationalist.

I am not a nationalist. I think nationalism is stupidity and ignorance.

Then, you post long articles on Salafism and such, and since you're clearly SUPPORTIVE of the movement/branch, I wonder why you find it an insult that someone would refer to you as a Salafi. What's wrong with Salafis? Just because progressives and humanists don't support Salafism, doesn't mean you should take it as an insult (I know, I know - I'm putting "Salafis" against humanists/progressives, so this statement is clearly loaded. But I'm okay with that. That's my view.) Be whatever and whoever you wanna be.

In the thread on ahl-e-hadith, you said something to me that made me lost ALLLLLLLLL respect for you. And I can't talk to a person I can't respect, then - just can't, you see.

You go around calling people kafir when they themselves don't declare themselves as kafir. If YOU think YOU have the right to place labels on people, then why can't we place labels on you in return? I think it's only fair.

Moreover, you should understand one thing: JUST as you have the right to spread your beliefs here, we have the right to spread our own IF we want. I mean, I'm not likely to open a thread that talks about, for example, why we should reject some of hadiths just because they are anti-women or anti-nonMuslims. But you have created threads on the importance of hadiths, which is fine, but then also understand that not ALL Muslims will agree with you. Not ALL Muslims believe in hadiths because it just doesn't make sense to them. (Mind you, I just wrote a paper comparing the views for and against hadiths :D That, too, was very enlightening! Looking at the justifications of each side and all. I MUST share excerpts from it in your "Importance of Adhering to the Sunnah" thread. And I'd like to take the stance against hadiths and you take the side FOR them. How's that? It doesn't mean, though, that I don't believe in all hadiths; I believe in some. But it'll be just to see how well you can defend your stance.)

You also seem to think that the Islam YOU are learning is the only possible Islam, the only possible INTERPRETATION of Islam. You think that the sources YOU turn to study Islam are more accurate or trusted than what others use. In fact, you call those resources/sources "trash":

If you want to study Islam DON'T go to Western Universities who provide courses under the name "Islamic Studies". What they call "Islamic Studies" is useless trash.

Alas, but I completely disagree. You think they teach us how to be good Muslims? No, they teach us Arabic, present and past commentaries of the Quran, hadiths, give us Quranic classes as well as classes on hadiths; they also give us works of all DIFFERENT TYPES of scholars of Islam, so as much as we might disagree with them and hate their views, we have no choice BUT to read them. These include one of my least favorites, Mawdudi. The teaches don't share their opinions with us because they're not ALLOWED to. You can hold personal discussions with them to get out from them their opinions if you're interested, but in class, they can't do that. In class, we're allowed to say whatEVER we want. This is why I prefer western schools on Islamic Studies as opposed to eastern or Muslim ones. I know I won't be allowed to say what I want there. However, I have to PROVE what I'm saying with textual evidence from the Quran/hadith, explain why I have concluded a certain point USING those texts. I've some teachers who'll comment, saying, "I'm not convinced," telling us that we have to talk and write as if we MUST convince them that what we're saying is the truth. Of course, it doesn't mean that if we succeed in convincing them, they'll believe our way and reject their former views; it just means that our argument and support for that argument was good enough to convince even a scholar in the particular subject.

So, then, if *I* know what it's like being an Islamic Studies institution in the west, and YOU, my friend, have never been in it obviously, what makes you think you've a right to call it "trash"?

Now, if you use this sick kind of language with others, what makes you think we can't use a similar tone with YOU?

I'm not convinced, then, that you should be treated with utmost respect when YOU refuse to show ANY respect to other members here.

Anyway, so my point is ... you have no more or better rights or privileges than other members here. If you want us to respect you, you must first respect us. If you don't wanna be insulted, don't insult others. This doesn't mean, though, that I think we should respond to insults with insults. No, I don't believe this.

Besides, as Khushal Khan bro has said, we don't wanna read long copy-pasted material; use the Quran and hadith to prove your beliefs, not what random people from random websites that claim to be "Islamic" have to say on the matter. It's just not suitable for an academic debate, which is what I consider the "debates" here to be.

So, yes, grow a thicker skin; I've had to, and other members who don't value typical Muslim beliefs have also had to do the same. So you'll get used to it in some time. Being called a "Salafi" or an ahle-e-hadithi or an extremist Muslim (not necessarily terrorist) shouldn't be a problem to you since that IS exactly what you've conveyed in your posts and threads.

Peace.

[شمله ور خراساني]

I don't believe in insults. But if I remember correctly, YOU have issued insults upon many members here. For instance, you think that it's "stupid" and "ignorant" to be a nationalist.

Then, you post long articles on Salafism and such, and since you're clearly SUPPORTIVE of the movement/branch, I wonder why you find it an insult that someone would refer to you as a Salafi. What's wrong with Salafis? Just because progressives and humanists don't support Salafism, doesn't mean you should take it as an insult (I know, I know - I'm putting "Salafis" against humanists/progressives, so this statement is clearly loaded. But I'm okay with that. That's my view.) Be whatever and whoever you wanna be.

In the thread on ahl-e-hadith, you said something to me that made me lost ALLLLLLLLL respect for you. And I can't talk to a person I can't respect, then - just can't, you see.

You go around calling people kafir when they themselves don't declare themselves as kafir. If YOU think YOU have the right to place labels on people, then why can't we place labels on you in return? I think it's only fair.

Moreover, you should understand one thing: JUST as you have the right to spread your beliefs here, we have the right to spread our own IF we want. I mean, I'm not likely to open a thread that talks about, for example, why we should reject some of hadiths just because they are anti-women or anti-nonMuslims. But you have created threads on the importance of hadiths, which is fine, but then also understand that not ALL Muslims will agree with you. Not ALL Muslims believe in hadiths because it just doesn't make sense to them. (Mind you, I just wrote a paper comparing the views for and against hadiths :D That, too, was very enlightening! Looking at the justifications of each side and all. I MUST share excerpts from it in your "Importance of Adhering to the Sunnah" thread. And I'd like to take the stance against hadiths and you take the side FOR them. How's that? It doesn't mean, though, that I don't believe in all hadiths; I believe in some. But it'll be just to see how well you can defend your stance.)

You also seem to think that the Islam YOU are learning is the only possible Islam, the only possible INTERPRETATION of Islam. You think that the sources YOU turn to study Islam are more accurate or trusted than what others use. In fact, you call those resources/sources "trash":



Alas, but I completely disagree. You think they teach us how to be good Muslims? No, they teach us Arabic, present and past commentaries of the Quran, hadiths, give us Quranic classes as well as classes on hadiths; they also give us works of all DIFFERENT TYPES of scholars of Islam, so as much as we might disagree with them and hate their views, we have no choice BUT to read them. These include one of my least favorites, Mawdudi. The teaches don't share their opinions with us because they're not ALLOWED to. You can hold personal discussions with them to get out from them their opinions if you're interested, but in class, they can't do that. In class, we're allowed to say whatEVER we want. This is why I prefer western schools on Islamic Studies as opposed to eastern or Muslim ones. I know I won't be allowed to say what I want there. However, I have to PROVE what I'm saying with textual evidence from the Quran/hadith, explain why I have concluded a certain point USING those texts. I've some teachers who'll comment, saying, "I'm not convinced," telling us that we have to talk and write as if we MUST convince them that what we're saying is the truth. Of course, it doesn't mean that if we succeed in convincing them, they'll believe our way and reject their former views; it just means that our argument and support for that argument was good enough to convince even a scholar in the particular subject.

So, then, if *I* know what it's like being an Islamic Studies institution in the west, and YOU, my friend, have never been in it obviously, what makes you think you've a right to call it "trash"?

Now, if you use this sick kind of language with others, what makes you think we can't use a similar tone with YOU?

I'm not convinced, then, that you should be treated with utmost respect when YOU refuse to show ANY respect to other members here.

Anyway, so my point is ... you have no more or better rights or privileges than other members here. If you want us to respect you, you must first respect us. If you don't wanna be insulted, don't insult others. This doesn't mean, though, that I think we should respond to insults with insults. No, I don't believe this.

Besides, as Khushal Khan bro has said, we don't wanna read long copy-pasted material; use the Quran and hadith to prove your beliefs, not what random people from random websites that claim to be "Islamic" have to say on the matter. It's just not suitable for an academic debate, which is what I consider the "debates" here to be.

So, yes, grow a thicker skin; I've had to, and other members who don't value typical Muslim beliefs have also had to do the same. So you'll get used to it in some time. Being called a "Salafi" or an ahle-e-hadithi or an extremist Muslim (not necessarily terrorist) shouldn't be a problem to you since that IS exactly what you've conveyed in your posts and threads.

Peace.

Please, vent your anger some place else.

I did not complain because I am refered to as Salafi.

First of all, I am not salafi. People who claim to be Salafis are a movement of arrogant people who declare that they are the only people who will enter paradise and all other people who disagree with them are bound to go the hell.

However, as I extensively made clear in the Ahlul Sunnah wa al jam'ah thread, I believe in refering back to the original Islam as we know it from the prophet sal allahu alayhi wasallam and his companions. And the consensus of the scholars of Islam who have remained om the same path.

Which means that Salafi creed meaning creed of those pious predecessors is the correct one. And therefore we should adhere to that creed instead of following deviancies that have come to existence centuries later.

The reason why I said that people are insulting me is because they said that I am a salafi jihadi terrorist. That is used as a term to defame Muslims who do not enjoin in worship of unjust rulers, and denounce secular laws.

Regarding takfir of certain people, there are many verses in the qur'an describing characteristics of hypocrites and there are verses that describe conditions in which people can be assumed as apostates.

And declaring anyone an apostate is in contradiction of the beliefs of Ahlul Sunnah. Only those who have fullfilled all conditions of apostasy and have been declared apostates by the scholars are to be declared apostates.

And Mustafa Kamal Attaturk is one of them.

Note that continuing to claim Islam while commiting acts of apostasy is not condition to define people as Muslims. An example would be Jahm who was beheaded by the Muslim leader because he rejected certain aspects of religion evendough he still claimed to be a Muslim.

And you are being very naive. How can Non-Muslims be unbiased and present an unbiased view on Islam if they themselves are non-Muslims?

And those Muslims who teach at Western Islamic Studies departments teach according to a curriculum designed by non-Muslims.

The fact that they do not take a position in certain matters makes them biased. Because as a Muslim we belief Islam to be the ultimate truth. How can you take an unbiased position regarding the ultimate truth?

And Moudidi was a nobody. He was a political author. Not a real authority in Islam. Same thing applies to Hasan al Banna and his silly grandson Tariq Ramadan.

And for your kind information, I live with people who study Islamic studies at a Western University. I have seen their books, their curriculum and am very well aware of the way they present Islam.

Ever wondered why many Muslims who enter those Islamic courses end up becoming kaafirs?

[Mayana]

I don't like how ur calling them 'lousy' you should just report the posts you don't like.


everytime I've reported a post. Not only hs it been taken care of but I get an email and PM to reassure me it won't happen again.

Exactly. Admin Khan is doing an amazing job, mashAllah.

[Roshina]

Please, vent your anger some place else.

Oh, believe me you - Qrratugai has absolutely no anger issues whatsoever. I know what angers me, and it's not people like you. In fact, I've learned that to let people like you anger me is to let you have control over me -- and that's unacceptable by me.

However, I've noted that you think EVERYONE who disagrees with you has anger issues and you advise them to take anger management classes. Yeah, can you guess what that means to us?

And about Mawdudi and Hassan al-Bana - I completely agree! However, that's not the majority view. And your having said that reminds me to tell you that ... just as YOU can disagree with THEM and shun their views, know that the people you VALUE, anyone else (including myself) can shun their views as well. So don't think that just because you value certain scholars, they're indeed the "right" scholars of Islam. Knowing your views on many things in Islam so far, I must even say - I doubt that anyone you consider a scholar is someone I consider a scholar too.

And there you go again -- calling people arrogant and stuff. And yet, you complain about the labels that are placed on you and the way you are addressed in some posts? :S I'm really confused, dear brother!

Also, you need to give us statistics of the people who have left Islam (as WELL as those who have accepted Islam) after/while studying Islam in the west. I'd be very interested to know. And, mind you, I beleive *this* is the best way of learning Islam -- people actually start to think for themselves and don't stick to their beliefs just because they're ignorant. I don't believe that ignorant is bliss, you see.