Hindkowans aren't the descendants of Gandharans, they're just Punjabis

[Sarbani]

Hindkowans are just a Punjabi subgroup and nothing more. They may have partial Gandharan DNA, but the same could also be said for Pashtuns in ex-Gandharan lands. The Gandharan language and cultural identity is completely extinct with no successors left in any form, whether it be linguistically, culturally, politically, etc. They're finished and ancient history now akin to the Thracians, Goths, etc.

Literally, the only thing that the Hindkowans have in common with the Gandharans is that both were Indo-Aryans. That is what the whole 'Hindkowan = Gandharan' claim is based off of.

The "language" spoken by Hindkowans belongs in the Punjabi dialect cluster and is descended from Shauraseni Prakrit. These two are completely distinct branches of Indo-Aryan like how Pashto and Persian and completely distinct branches of Iranic. Treating Shauraseni Prakrit and Gandhari Prakrit as the same would be akin to treating Dardic and Punjabi as the same.

Hindkowans are basically just another Punjabi subgroup. Their dialect isn't any more distinctive than any other Punjabi dialect. The only reason why they are treated as a bit different than other Punjabis is because they are outside the borders of Punjab and live in KPK's Hazara division for the most part. The name Hindkowan was originally used by Pashtuns to refer to Indics in general, but then later became confined to only those within KPK since they were the Indics geographically/politically closest to us Pashtuns. This later became their general name. The people of Murree and Chhachh speak the same dialect of Punjabi as Hindkowans do but they refer to themselves as just ethnic Punjabis and don't call themselves Hindkowans.

[kunatawar]

some of them might be actually descendants of gandharis, that obviously doesnt mean they are today. i thought some of the pashtuns in swat, nowshera, charsadda etc who are not of tribal lineage were most strongly linked to gandharans? and yes hindkowans, northwest punjabis and most of azad kashmir (mirpuris and the like) are the same people (or at least they are VERY closely related) but referred to by different names because of the current boundaries between those provinces. if the hindkowan areas were not originally given to nwfp then they would not have been a separate sub-category like they are now.

[Sarbani]

some of them might be actually descendants of gandharis, that obviously doesnt mean they are today.

Gandharan was a cultural ethnolinguistic identity, not an identity based on DNA components. Just cause they have some DNA components that got passed down from Gandharis doesn't mean anything. Both are a completely distinct people.

if the hindkowan areas were not originally given to nwfp then they would not have been a separate sub-category like they are now.

Agreed.

[maneatinglizard]

i thought some of the pashtuns in swat, nowshera, charsadda etc who are not of tribal lineage were most strongly linked to gandharans?

Are these people Pashtuns, or Pashto speakers?

There's this interesting phenomenon I've noticed, where Pashtuns in Pakistan seem to consider Pashto-ized people as Pashtuns, while the same doesn't happen much in Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, generally you're only considered Pashtun if you belong to a Pashtun tribe. There're communities of people in Pashtun-dominated areas like Kandahar and Gardez, who have lived there for centuries and speak fluent Pashto, but are still considered non-Pashtun. There are exceptions (like Akhundzadas are considered Pashtun despite not belonging to any specific tribe), but that's generally how it works. On the other hand, I've noticed that many Pakistani Pashtuns do consider the originally non-Pashtun people of KP whom have adopted Pashto to be Pashtuns.

I wonder if this is due to a difference between the two Pashtun populations (i.e. the dynamics of being a powerful majority versus a weak minority), or the non-Pashtun populations (i.e. the KP natives readily adopted Pashtun identity while the Tajiks of Pashtun areas didn't).

[Elias]

I thought always pashayis were the descendants of Kabul Shahi or the region named gandhara because I think Pashayi is probably derived from padshahi. But I'm not a historian or can't back up my thoughts/claims with historic evidence.

[Sarbani]

I thought always pashayis were the descendants of Kabul Shahi or the region named gandhara because I think Pashayi is probably derived from padshahi. But I'm not a historian or can't back up my thoughts/claims with historic evidence.

The Kabul Shahi dynasties were of Tibetan origin, at least the early ones were.

[kunatawar]

Are these people Pashtuns, or Pashto speakers?

There's this interesting phenomenon I've noticed, where Pashtuns in Pakistan seem to consider Pashto-ized people as Pashtuns, while the same doesn't happen much in Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, generally you're only considered Pashtun if you belong to a Pashtun tribe. There're communities of people in Pashtun-dominated areas like Kandahar and Gardez, who have lived there for centuries and speak fluent Pashto, but are still considered non-Pashtun. There are exceptions (like Akhundzadas are considered Pashtun despite not belonging to any specific tribe), but that's generally how it works. On the other hand, I've noticed that many Pakistani Pashtuns do consider the originally non-Pashtun people of KP whom have adopted Pashto to be Pashtuns.

I wonder if this is due to a difference between the two Pashtun populations (i.e. the dynamics of being a powerful majority versus a weak minority), or the non-Pashtun populations (i.e. the KP natives readily adopted Pashtun identity while the Tajiks of Pashtun areas didn't).

in the peshawar valley region we dont really care about tribe very much, its more about where you're from. many people ive come across dont know their tribe, even i didnt until we were asked it on a passport renewal a while back. in general if you speak pashto at home and youre from our regions then you're pashtun to us, the situation is different from south kpk, fata, balochistan and most of afghanistan where people are more picky.

[kunatawar]

The Kabul Shahi dynasties were of Tibetan origin, at least the early ones were.

was it only the ruling class that was tibetan/turkic or was that the entire society? i seen many indian hindus claim descent from the shahis online nowadays. now i know thats just typical indian fashion and its impossible to trace back lineage that far but im wondering if there is any slight chance there might be any semblance of truth to that.

[Sarbani]

was it only the ruling class that was tibetan/turkic or was that the entire society?

I'm confident it was only the ruling class.

i seen many indian hindus claim descent from the shahis online nowadays. now i know thats just typical indian fashion and its impossible to trace back lineage that far but im wondering if there is any slight chance there might be any semblance of truth to that.

That's just Indians being Indians. Until I see evidence for it, they're just empty claims as far as I'm concerned.

[Sarbani]

Are these people Pashtuns, or Pashto speakers?

There's this interesting phenomenon I've noticed, where Pashtuns in Pakistan seem to consider Pashto-ized people as Pashtuns, while the same doesn't happen much in Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, generally you're only considered Pashtun if you belong to a Pashtun tribe. There're communities of people in Pashtun-dominated areas like Kandahar and Gardez, who have lived there for centuries and speak fluent Pashto, but are still considered non-Pashtun. There are exceptions (like Akhundzadas are considered Pashtun despite not belonging to any specific tribe), but that's generally how it works. On the other hand, I've noticed that many Pakistani Pashtuns do consider the originally non-Pashtun people of KP whom have adopted Pashto to be Pashtuns.

I wonder if this is due to a difference between the two Pashtun populations (i.e. the dynamics of being a powerful majority versus a weak minority), or the non-Pashtun populations (i.e. the KP natives readily adopted Pashtun identity while the Tajiks of Pashtun areas didn't).

Maliars in Swabi aren't considered one of us. I haven't heard of them ever directly called non-Pashtuns since people don't talk about that stuff there, but relatives I asked said that Maliars are not Yusafzais or Pashtuns. Even if someone considers them as Pashtuns whether out of ignorance or any other reason, they are still viewed as different from everyone else.

[Kakar-Wardak]

Funny story When I was a teenager and didn't no much about tribes, I asked my uncle if naiyan(barber) , Jolaghan (weaver), Tarkharan(builder) were pashtuns and he started laughing , he told me just because they speak pashto dosen't make them pashtuns.

[jama0112]

Really? I always thought they were hindu indians.