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شمله ور خراساني شمله ور خراساني is offline
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Default Islam and nationalism - 04-23-2010, 11:05 AM

As salaamu aleikoum,

The concept nationality, nationalism and pride are alien to Islam. Muslims who love their ethnicity or nationality oppose unity of muslims.

The existence of political borders dividing muslims into different countries is one of our main problems.

For as long as these imposed borders exist, america, europe, china, russia and others will continue to subdue muslims and prevent us from progress.
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pir_Rokhan pir_Rokhan is offline
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Default 04-23-2010, 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangar View Post
As salaamu aleikoum,

The concept nationality, nationalism and pride are alien to Islam. Muslims who love their ethnicity or nationality oppose unity of muslims.

The existence of political borders dividing muslims into different countries is one of our main problems.

For as long as these imposed borders exist, america, europe, china, russia and others will continue to subdue muslims and prevent us from progress.
It depends upon what you call nationality, nationalism and what you call Islam. In my opinion nationality or nationalism has nothing to do with Islam. Infact it is Islam which is alien to Nationality or nationalism. It was meant for Arabs and is still mainly owned by Arabs. It does not suit the requirements of non Arabs and neither has it any relevance in the modern age.

Unity of Muslims is a utopian idea. It was never there and neither will it ever come into existence in future. It is just a dream which the Arab world has given to non Arabs to keep their historic imperialist supremacy based on religion and race.

Political borders are based on regional interests and based on territorial nationalism which is the uniting and binding force in the modern age.USA,China , Russia etc has nothing to do with Muslims.It is the national interests of a nation or a country which determines the nature of the international relations in the modern world.The example is that USA is a friend of the fundamentalist Saudi Arabia which is a predominantly muslims country while it an enemy of Cuba and China which are socialist countries.If it was religion USA would be the enemy of all muslims states and the worst enemy if Saudi Arabia which is the cradle of the Arab ideology.Similarly China is an enemy of India which is a non muslim country while a friend of Pakistan which is a muslim country.So many examples can be quoted.

On the contrary let me predict something shocking to you.Infact the Power elite of US which consists of think tanks like ZBEGNIEW BREZNSKI will try to befriend Muslim world tp use ot agaisnt China.The same guinnie pigs in the form of Afghans were used agaisnt Russia while most probably those of Pakistan or India will be used agaisnt China.

Read Webster Tarpley's book the "Unauthorised biogrpahy of Barrak H. Obama" to know more about what is going on and what has already happenend.

Last edited by pir_Rokhan; 04-23-2010 at 12:59 PM.
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Default 04-23-2010, 12:35 PM

What else I can say after reading Pir on the topic. He has covered every aspect of the issue in a succint way. Some times you feel that this is waht I wrote not the writer. Its so similar to your thoughts and feelings. May be if I did not see the post of Pir I would write the same thing as he wrote may be with different words.

This Muslim Umma, Muslim unity, Muslim khilafah, is all absurd concepts and tools of Arab imperiialism. The worst who suffer from this evil design nowa days are the pitiable Pashtuns who are more active than arabs in defending Arab culture and Arab way of life in the garb of Islam.

Religion is just your private matter and its your beliefs, worship and morality. If you are convinced that the religion preached by the Arab prophet Muhammad is better than the one introduced by the Indian Budha, or the Galilean Jew Jesus of Nazareth , or the Hebrew Moses etc then you must be a Muslim in your beliefs, worship and personal ethics but you cant impose this religion in other spheres of life as politics, education, culture, economy etc.

Unity of Muslims on political lines as one Umma is the result of this misconception that islam is also part of politics. If you give Islam its due status as religion then all this struggle for the establishment of Islamic Khilafah , and this menace of terrorism as a tool for establishing islamic state will automatically cease.
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Levanaye Zalmaye Levanaye Zalmaye is offline
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Default 04-23-2010, 12:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by pir_Rokhan View Post
It depends upon what you call nationality, nationalism and what you call Islam. In my opinion nationality or nationalism has nothing to do with Islam. Infact it is Islam which is alien to Nationality or nationalism. It was meant for Arabs and is still mainly owned by Arabs. It does not suit the requirements of non Arabs and neither has it any relevance in the modern age.

Unity of Muslims is a utopian idea. It was never there and neither will it ever come into existence in future. It is just a dream which the Arab world has given to non Arabs to keep their historic imperialist supremacy based on religion and race.

Political borders are based on regional interests and based on territorial nationalism which is the uniting and binding force in the modern age.USA,China , Russia etc has nothing to do with Muslims.It is the national interests of a nation or a country which determines the nature of the international relations in the modern world.The example is that USA is a friend of the fundamentalist Saudi Arabia which is a predominantly muslims country while it an enemy of Cuba and China which are socialist countries.If it was religion USA would be the enemy of all muslims states and the worst enemy if Saudi Arabia which is the cradle of the Arab ideology.Similarly China is an enemy of India which is a non muslim country while a friend of Pakistan which is a muslim country.So many examples can be quoted.
^ Pir_Rokhan, sta post dumra rikhtia de che pa ttol forum che da de pa shaan rikhtia post neshta.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Yusufzai View Post
In Islam, nationalism is not allowed. We are all Muslims and part of the Muslim ummah.
Bia mung dalta pa "Pashto" forums bande sa kawu?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sangar View Post
As salaamu aleikoum,

The concept nationality, nationalism and pride are alien to Islam. Muslims who love their ethnicity or nationality oppose unity of muslims.

The existence of political borders dividing muslims into different countries is one of our main problems.

For as long as these imposed borders exist, america, europe, china, russia and others will continue to subdue muslims and prevent us from progress.

.... Zaka kho zmung jahil khalq ta da Islaam num bande bewakuf jorrawul dumra asaan de.


"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be".

"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives".
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Default 04-23-2010, 01:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yusufzai View Post
In Islam, nationalism is not allowed. We are all Muslims and part of the Muslim ummah.
As I said, before giving a juristic verdict define your terms.This has been the major point of linguistic philosophers like Witgensien,that most of the mis understanding is due to either vague words of vague use of words.

Islam and Nationalism ar enot mutually exclusive.If you want me to give refereces directly from the Quran and Sunnah so I can or if you want to discuss it from political science point of view even then we can discuss it.Similarly we can argue it philosophically too in case you are keen.
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Default 04-23-2010, 01:14 PM

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Originally Posted by GoPashtunGo View Post
LZ,

I think what Islam is trying to say is, Nationalism ends up making you a bit racist.
There are 3 types of nationalism.Racial,linguistic and territorial.Unless otherwise stated nationalism means territorial nationalism.

The racist version is only there in Israel which coincides with their religion too.

There is nothing wrong in linguistic and territorial ones.They are the bases of modern statecraft.
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Default 04-23-2010, 11:50 PM

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Originally Posted by handsomepashtun View Post
I believe in being nationalism to your ethnic group.
Are you talking in spranto?
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Default 04-27-2010, 11:14 AM

But one can say that Islam is Arab Nationalism, as everything is related to customs and the language of Arabic. If you can not be proud of your Pushto or you being Pashtun but God has told you must speak Arabic to be in Heaven as everybody in heaven will speak Arabic, then the logical mind will start asking questions wouldnt it?

Islam and other faiths should be a persons own business, a personel thing, somebody that should not be made exclusive to the whole world as if you some kind of saint or holy man.

Nationalism is the key to make Pashtuns survive, Nationalism is not as bad as Relgionous infighting, whereby a Sunni has the nerve to throw granades into the mosque packed full of Shia's in Dera Ismail Khan, or when such holy men preach hatred towards others especially relgionous minorities.
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Default 04-29-2010, 06:19 PM

There's NOTHING in Islam that says nationalism is haraam. I think we're confusing "nationalism" with "racism," yes? Yes. In that case, RACISM is rotten, indeed; but nationalism and patriotism? I don't see how. If we were saying, "We're better than every other race on earth, and everyone else is below us -- therefore, we need to be under ONE nation so we can enjoy our being better than everyone else!" then, yeah, okay, I can understand why that'd be "forbidden," but the reasons we're giving have nothing to do with superiority.

Certainly, any Pashtun who sees her/himself above other ethnicities or races or peoples, I agree they're being ridiculous. But nationalism? Favoring my country, MY people, MY land to others is haraam? Don't you dare. Let's be realistic, for God's sake: We need to first unite with the people AROUND us before we can even TRY to unite with the over a billion Muslims worldwide.

So, if we really believe it's haraam, we'd first need to define nationalism -- and Islam, lol. When the Prophet said that no Arab is better than a non-Arab, etc., he didn't mean you can't stand against an oppressive government that's killing your people.

Anyway, here's my response (pasting from another source 'cause, DUH, some Pashtuns are actually fooled into believing that nationalism is haraam *in the name of Islam*. Sad.). Because the post the anti-nationalism dude presented had some arguments that I try to address in my response, so if you don't know what I'm talking about at times, don't worry.

What, you actually want every single Muslim on the face of the earth to unite under ONE nation, ONE flag? :S Just because that'll mean Muslims are united? :|

Sorry, but I have to disagree with the claim that nationalism is haraam in Islam. This is how so many Muslims will use Islam just to support their own conclusions that satisfy them; otherwise, many Muslims will rarely follow Islam at all.First, you'd have to understand *why* a group of people wants to be united as that ethnic group; Pakhtuns, for instance, have a thousand and three reasons to do so, and we know it'll be more beneficial to us in the long run -- we'll be secure and in peace, ka khaire. Why should any religion have a problem with that?

Second, can't Muslims STILL be united while many different groups living in different nations? Can't we continue having ties with other Muslims -- even Punjabis and other ethnic groups surrounding Pukhtuns -- while having our own independent nation? Can't we continue being brothers "in Islam" and respecting each others' rights (oh, wait, we Pukhtuns HAVE no rights currently to begin with!)?

I think it's just so impractical of Muslims to constantly scream in our faces that nationalism is haraam or un-Islamic or unwelcome in Islam. We're not indicating that we're better than non-Pukhtuns (and Pukhtuns don't believe this in the first place at all, actually), so I can't figure out what the problem with nationalism is. What's wrong with keeping your race as pure as possible and your people as united as possible? And how the heck are we supposed to unite with the WHOLE of Muslim world when we ourselves lack unity? :S

I think the arguments presented against nationalism are too weak. What do the disputants, and those Muslims agree with them, expect the oppressed people of the earth to do -- remain with their oppressive nation NO MATTER what just because they're at least being governed by a group of people who CLAIM to be "Islamic"? :| Because somehow, someday, justice will prevail, without their having to make any practical attempts to help themselves? Well, you see, God ain't gonna help a people unless they stand up for themselves and prove themselves worthy of His help. So if we want justice and peace in our Pukhtun lands, and we've recognized the fact that the ultimate solution to our current problems is to unite under ONE nation as Pukhtuns -- all, those in Afghanistan and those in Pakistan -- then we should go for it. Why should ANY religion, ANY God have any problem with this?

One more thing: If you believe it's about unity, then ... Please define the term "unity" for me; I've been asking someone to do it for so long, preferably someone who believes that nationalism is bad/haraam in Islam. What's your understanding of unity in the first place? Shouldn't we be more focused on, like, Muslims helping other Muslims in times of need? You know, just like we Pukhtuns are suffering in our lands, have been suffering for decades now and will certainly continue to suffer until justice is *somehow* brought to us, and NO Muslims have stood up for us? Shouldn't Muslims help other oppressed Muslims, help them fight for justice and peace in their lands, help fight their oppressors, and so on -- on the basis of unity, under the name of Muslim unity? Isn't that what unity should REALLY mean and be focusing on?

Or is it just "we shouldn't separate from our (so-called) Muslim nations! We are Muslims, and we should be united! Nationalism is forbidden in Islam, so let's not be nationalist and be up for our ethnicity but only stand up for our religious beliefs!"
Hmm, I wonder.

Well, sorry, but to each his own. We are Pukhtuns before we're anything else, and we remain Muslims, so I still can't see the problem with our nationalism no matter how hard I think about this.

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Default 04-29-2010, 06:31 PM

Nationalism is insane though. Who'd embrace it?
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