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Default 02-12-2011, 06:28 PM

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Originally Posted by Wrayun View Post
First, I'm not a hadith rejector, I'm just not a hadith worshiper. I think hadiths make good references, but what's in the hadiths should be open to scrutiny, and shouldn't be compulsory.

Second, I don't have a problem with the Prophet's marriage to Aisha ra. If it happened as it is recorded in the "authentic" Hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim, even though contradictory statements do exist that says otherwise, I believe it to be a special case of circumstances.

I don't believe that 6 years old, or 9 year olds, should be marrying 50 year olds. I also think that those who use the case of the Prophet to entertain their perverted fantasies, shouldn't be allowed to either. However, some people, like you, believe that rejecting hadiths, or practices in the hadith, are technical apostasies.

So I propose a question to you Sangar, will you allow your 6/9 year old to marry a 20/30/40/50 year old man? Remember, I am a Salafi, and I have the Sahi Hadith book with me. If you say anything to the contrary, you are rejecting the practice of the Prophet Mohammad, his Sunnat, his hadith.

So, would you?
I would allow the marriage of a 6 year old and a 50 year old man because Quran and Hadith do not contradict such a marriage.
Your posts encapsulates the inherit contradiction of your view, i.e that Quran and Hadith should be open to speculation. I believe this is the very reason why Hazrat Umar ibn Khattab and Abu Bakr radiallahuanhu both intially believed that ahadith should not be collected. It is for this reason that a 150 years later the books of Ahadith were published. There are about 30,000 + ahadith in existence today but only those that the muhaditheen have verified scientifically have been generally accepted by the ahlul sunnah.
Hazrat Aisha, radiallahuanha, was the youngest wife, and one of the major sources of the many ahadith narrated in Bukhari, in addition to two other youths of The Prophet (pbuh) times, one being Abu Huraira (RA).
So come full circle, the ahadith regarding her marriage at 9 is valid. You are trying to make a moral judgment based on your experiences rather than what is the evidence regarding their marriage. And if bothers you that this did happen, then it goes to show that you are not qualified enough to speculate on any hadith or ayat...since whatever you say will be based on your own conjectures. In this way, your views are inferior to ahadith and take a smaller role in our understanding of Islam than say Bukhari. So when you make remarks like "oh because its written in a hadith book"...the silent rebuttle is "Of course!" ...so just because you say it's other wise we are suppose to believe you? ..twilight zone indeed.
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Default 02-12-2011, 09:34 PM

Alchemist,

Quote:
I would allow the marriage of a 6 year old and a 50 year old man because Quran and Hadith do not contradict such a marriage.
Just because the Quran or Hadith doesnít contradict such a marriage, it doesnít relieve us of our moral obligation to stand up for what is right, and what is wrong. The purpose of religion is to be a moral guidance, to instill in us the sense of justice. When there is scientific evidence available, that such marriages are harmful, to 6 year olds, physically and psychologically, we as Muslims have our moral obligation to protect that child. Thatís ethical common sense.

Quote:
Your posts encapsulates the inherit contradiction of your view, i.e that Quran and Hadith should be open to speculation.
And your assumption is wrong. The Quran and Hadith are and should be open to speculations, otherwise there be no way to interpret or understand many of the so-called scientific ďcontradictionsĒ in the Quran. We wouldnít be able to explain what does it mean that the Sun sets in murky water, it has a resting place, that the world is laid out like a carpet. For a long time even midst Pukhtoons everyone believed that the world was flat. That after you reach the four corners of the world, crossing the oceans, you fall straight down into the abyss. People believed that the sun when it sets, went to sleep, it was resting. We now know that isnít true. We know that those verses didnít literally mean what it says, so we are forced to speculate.

Quote:
I believe this is the very reason why Hazrat Umar ibn Khattab and Abu Bakr radiallahuanhu both intially believed that ahadith should not be collected. It is for this reason that a 150 years later the books of Ahadith were published. There are about 30,000 + ahadith in existence today but only those that the muhaditheen have verified scientifically have been generally accepted by the ahlul sunnah. Hazrat Aisha, radiallahuanha, was the youngest wife, and one of the major sources of the many ahadith narrated in Bukhari, in addition to two other youths of The Prophet (pbuh) times, one being Abu Huraira (RA).
Interesting thing is that it is reported that Aisha ra called Abu Hurrira a liar, and that Umar ra also put him in check? The Shia also question Aisha ra character. Of course those evil Shia and their books are wrong, why wouldnít they be? They are not written by Bukhari or Muslim. Right? And Iím sure they feel the same way about Sunni Hadiths. Thus there lies the dilemma.

For as long as we know this Hadith business is the ultimate factor in dividing Muslims. Each sect with their own unique collections of Hadiths, scholars, and edicts, justify their existence and their politics. All the while it is strictly prohibited in the Quran to divide Islam into sects. And this is all done using Hadiths, not the Quran, but Hadiths. That alone should tell us how dangerous this Hadith business is when taken seriously. Even today Sunni Saudi Arabia, authentic Salafi Muslims, support Israel/West against Shia Iran. Quality Muslim scholars use all sorts of Hadiths to justify this. But what does the Quran say?

If you like, try the telephone/Chinese whisper game with your friends and family. Go on to record everything that is said just that single period. Youíll understand why I have an issue with Hadiths. I donít consider whatís in the Hadith to be facts engraved in stone. There is too much room for discrepancies. 1400 years of whispering.

Quote:
So come full circle, the ahadith regarding her marriage at 9 is valid. You are trying to make a moral judgment based on your experiences rather than what is the evidence regarding their marriage.
And what is the source of the marriage, Bukhari? Google contradictions in Bukhari/Hadiths.

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And if bothers you that this did happen, then it goes to show that you are not qualified enough to speculate on any hadith or ayat... since whatever you say will be based on your own conjectures. In this way, your views are inferior to ahadith and take a smaller role in our understanding of Islam than say Bukhari.
No, it doesnít bother me, the Prophet was the Messenger of God, and had special properties and privileges. What bothers me is when what he supposedly, and I mean supposedly did, is used to determine whether one is a Muslim or not. When what he supposedly did is used to wage war. When what he supposedly did, or allowed, is used to curb the rights of men and women. When people use what he supposedly did, to hijack Islam, and Muslim societies. When what he supposedly did, overrides what is in the Quran, the word of God and common sense. Thatís what bothers me.

Quote:
So when you make remarks like "oh because its written in a hadith book"...the silent rebuttle is "Of course!" ...so just because you say it's other wise we are suppose to believe you? ..twilight zone indeed.
That just says that you take the words of mere mortal men as infallible, and I donít. You are idolizing human beings, creatures and slaves of Allah swt. That is blasphemy. I know better not to.

While you are at it, pick up the bible, and worship Jesus. ďOf course!" Jesus was crucified and the son of God, itís in the BIBLE silly! It says so right there, its a fact! Why speculate?

Why the same criticism that is dished out against the Christian bible, a collection of articles written by men, not applied to the collection of Hadiths?

I call that hypocrisy.
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Default 02-12-2011, 09:58 PM

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Originally Posted by Wrayun View Post
Alchemist,



Just because the Quran or Hadith doesnít contradict such a marriage, it doesnít relieve us of our moral obligation to stand up for what is right, and what is wrong. The purpose of religion is to be a moral guidance, to instill in us the sense of justice. When there is scientific evidence available, that such marriages are harmful, to 6 year olds, physically and psychologically, we as Muslims have our moral obligation to protect that child. Thatís ethical common sense.



And your assumption is wrong. The Quran and Hadith are and should be open to speculations, otherwise there be no way to interpret or understand many of the so-called scientific ďcontradictionsĒ in the Quran. We wouldnít be able to explain what does it mean that the Sun sets in murky water, it has a resting place, that the world is laid out like a carpet. For a long time even midst Pukhtoons everyone believed that the world was flat. That after you reach the four corners of the world, crossing the oceans, you fall straight down into the abyss. People believed that the sun when it sets, went to sleep, it was resting. We now know that isnít true. We know that those verses didnít literally mean what it says, so we are forced to speculate.



Interesting thing is that it is reported that Aisha ra called Abu Hurrira a liar, and that Umar ra also put him in check? The Shia also question Aisha ra character. Of course those evil Shia and their books are wrong, why wouldnít they be? They are not written by Bukhari or Muslim. Right? And Iím sure they feel the same way about Sunni Hadiths. Thus there lies the dilemma.

For as long as we know this Hadith business is the ultimate factor in dividing Muslims. Each sect with their own unique collections of Hadiths, scholars, and edicts, justify their existence and their politics. All the while it is strictly prohibited in the Quran to divide Islam into sects. And this is all done using Hadiths, not the Quran, but Hadiths. That alone should tell us how dangerous this Hadith business is when taken seriously. Even today Sunni Saudi Arabia, authentic Salafi Muslims, support Israel/West against Shia Iran. Quality Muslim scholars use all sorts of Hadiths to justify this. But what does the Quran say?

If you like, try the telephone/Chinese whisper game with your friends and family. Go on to record everything that is said just that single period. Youíll understand why I have an issue with Hadiths. I donít consider whatís in the Hadith to be facts engraved in stone. There is too much room for discrepancies. 1400 years of whispering.



And what is the source of the marriage, Bukhari? Google contradictions in Bukhari/Hadiths.



No, it doesnít bother me, the Prophet was the Messenger of God, and had special properties and privileges. What bothers me is when what he supposedly, and I mean supposedly did, is used to determine whether one is a Muslim or not. When what he supposedly did is used to wage war. When what he supposedly did, or allowed, is used to curb the rights of men and women. When people use what he supposedly did, to hijack Islam, and Muslim societies. When what he supposedly did, overrides what is in the Quran, the word of God and common sense. Thatís what bothers me.



That just says that you take the words of mere mortal men as infallible, and I donít. You are idolizing human beings, creatures and slaves of Allah swt. That is blasphemy. I know better not to.

While you are at it, pick up the bible, and worship Jesus. ďOf course!" Jesus was crucified and the son of God, itís in the BIBLE silly! It says so right there, its a fact! Why speculate?

Why the same criticism that is dished out against the Christian bible, a collection of articles written by men, not applied to the collection of Hadiths?

I call that hypocrisy.


Oh so you worship science then?

You think that science contradicts Quran? That science is on par with the Quran?


You make me laugh.


I call that scientology.


First of all, your understanding of science is limited compared to mines in this respect as you too boldly have stated a general statement and applied it to a specific context. Girls hit puberty as early as six years of age...this has been recorded in tshe annals of history...in effect with raising estrogen levels in the water circulation of cities, girls have been hitting puberty even younger than 6. So there is ample evidence that what we consider to be a "child" a "kid" differs from culture to culture, however, science does not support the western cultural myth that adults are only those above 18. But does this mean that your brain is still immature? And where your presumption falls short is in your belief that people fall under a perfect Bell Curve and that those in the middle exemplify the "norms" and the rest "abnormals". What is normal and what isn't is hypothetical constructs of your own mind.
An example of one being your belief in the myth that ahadith are "stories" whispered for 1400 years. So why don't you believe the same about the Quran? Do you know that the shias say that there are ayats missing from the mass produced Quran? Disunity happened right after the demise of The Holy Prophet (pbuh) so time isn't the real factor here. We study the myths of the old people, from 4000 - 5000 years years ago, and we find similarity in their narrations. Immanuel velikovsky draws a cosmological history from the parrallels that he finds between the famous stories of the greeks, the indians, the europeans and australians to describe a galactic events that these people experienced. Carl Jung studied the mythologies of various culture to find those common underlying features of the stories that resonated with the psychy of individuals. Sayings of The Prophets peace be upon him have likewise been recorded in the psychy of a people who have been muslims since 1400 years ago...and if you can't discern it because your "science" is limited than who do you turn to?
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Default 02-12-2011, 10:00 PM

^you are wasting my time.
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Default 02-12-2011, 10:08 PM

On the contrary, your time has already been wasted since 90% of what I said was beyound your comprehension. Get it? Because all this time .. you were wrong ...

(jk)
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Default 02-14-2011, 05:36 PM

Wrayun, it is not fair for you to say that an elderly Muslim man should no longer marry a girl much younger than himself. The reason for this is that no where do we find any such guideline by our Prophet (saw), even from among weak ahadith.

Rather, our men should be taught that the Holy Prophet (saw) mainly married older women who were widows and non-virgins and Hadhrat Aishah (ra) being the only exception--she was young and a virgin. So, if it is a matter of following the sunnah, then our elderly men should bring a poor widow with her children under their wings instead of satisfying a carnal desire, if that is the reason why they are doing it. However, if he chooses the latter, then there is still nothing wrong with it. We can only hope that his young bride can bring him closer to Allah, if not for anything else at least for not trespassing the injunctions of Islam. Finally, don't forget that marrying young girls was the practice of that society, and even some societies of today, and it was also done by the Prophet (saw) himself.

I have a cousin who married a 50+ man when she was, I think, 18. The man has children, from his first marriage, who are older than my cousin. His children and his family cursed him when he married her. However, he is so happy and I believe that he has become a better human being because of her. Now, I am told that his ex-wife and older children respect him even more.

I am not saying that we should marry 12 year old girls (that was the age of Hadhrat Aishah (ra) when the marriage was consummated) when there are many other older women who are also in need of companionship, merely because the Prophet (saw) did it. What I am saying is that to put a hard and fast rule is not right either. We are treading on a path of indirectly insulting the Prophet (saw) by condemning such a practice.

Moreover, Wrayun, a women is able to consort once she has reached puberty, which is generally around 12 years of age. And, mind you that many girls in the Eastern countries are much more advanced and mature than the girls of the Western world. Also, don't judge a girl because she plays with dolls, because Hadhrat Aishah (ra) used to play with dolls after the consummation of her marriage. Look at the caliber of woman she is, because Hadhrat Aishah (ra) became the first female Muslim scholar in the first century hijrah.

This discussion is not by any means done with my post. I am simply saying that we should be careful. Because the Prophet (saw) did something we should try to exhaust every avenue of reasoning before saying whether we should no longer do this or that. That is all that I am saying.


Islam will prevail, a promise made by the Creator of this universe:

[61:8] They desire to extinguish the light of Allah with the breath of their mouths, but Allah will perfect His light, even if the disbelievers hate it.

[61:9] He it is Who has sent His Messenger with the guidance and the Religion of truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religions, even if those who associate partners with God hate it.

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Default 02-14-2011, 05:53 PM

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Originally Posted by Alchemist View Post
Oh so you worship science then?

You think that science contradicts Quran? That science is on par with the Quran?


You make me laugh.


I call that scientology.


First of all, your understanding of science is limited compared to mines in this respect as you too boldly have stated a general statement and applied it to a specific context. Girls hit puberty as early as six years of age...this has been recorded in tshe annals of history...in effect with raising estrogen levels in the water circulation of cities, girls have been hitting puberty even younger than 6. So there is ample evidence that what we consider to be a "child" a "kid" differs from culture to culture, however, science does not support the western cultural myth that adults are only those above 18. But does this mean that your brain is still immature? And where your presumption falls short is in your belief that people fall under a perfect Bell Curve and that those in the middle exemplify the "norms" and the rest "abnormals". What is normal and what isn't is hypothetical constructs of your own mind.
An example of one being your belief in the myth that ahadith are "stories" whispered for 1400 years. So why don't you believe the same about the Quran? Do you know that the shias say that there are ayats missing from the mass produced Quran? Disunity happened right after the demise of The Holy Prophet (pbuh) so time isn't the real factor here. We study the myths of the old people, from 4000 - 5000 years years ago, and we find similarity in their narrations. Immanuel velikovsky draws a cosmological history from the parrallels that he finds between the famous stories of the greeks, the indians, the europeans and australians to describe a galactic events that these people experienced. Carl Jung studied the mythologies of various culture to find those common underlying features of the stories that resonated with the psychy of individuals. Sayings of The Prophets peace be upon him have likewise been recorded in the psychy of a people who have been muslims since 1400 years ago...and if you can't discern it because your "science" is limited than who do you turn to?

Nowhere in our DNA is it written not to kill another human being. There is no brain center to prevent killing. We dont kill because it is socially awkward and not acceptable. You dont need MO to tell you that, every village idiot can figure that out.
Similarly most village idiots, including myself, when they look at a 6 years old, even with boobs hanging to the pubis from precocious puberty (from hormonal abnormalities and thus on the fringes of the bell curve), will consider it inappropriate for her to be penetrated by a 50 year old. I agree no laws of physics will be broken in the process, its just 'yukky'.

Quote:
An example of one being your belief in the myth that ahadith are "stories" whispered for 1400 years. So why don't you believe the same about the Quran? Do you know that the shias say that there are ayats missing from the mass produced Quran?
Ahadith Stories
Quran fairytales,

Myth and stories have always been used to culturally absorb cosmological, social and environmental catastrophes along with day to day changes and such. Muslims are not unique in creating such fantasies.
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Default 02-14-2011, 06:32 PM

Pa khair MWMN, it's been a while.

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Wrayun, it is not fair for you to say that an elderly Muslim man should no longer marry a girl much younger than himself. The reason for this is that no where do we find any such guideline by our Prophet (saw), even from among weak ahadith.
First of all, you are coming off of this as if I criticized what the Prophet SAW did. I didn't. Instead, my argument was how Hadiths can be used to justify child abuse. I didn't suggest that elderly Muslim men should no longer marry younger females. However 6, 9, 10, or even 12 year olds are borderline cases of child abuse. It's not always the case, and it has been happening in various cultures, but so is the case with human sacrifice and infanticide. So is the culture of female circumcision which many madhabs within Islam actually support while others consider it abhorrent.

The whole debate is about Hadith, and how when made into a compulsory mandate, can become challenging. The marriage of Aisha ra was just one example that I brought up, which is not only criticized by Islamphobes, but also abused by Muslims themselves. The rest of your argument I some what agree with, some of the material is what I recycle in defense of the Prophet SAW marriage. Though in certain cases these justifications are not applicable. It is true that in certain cases this is normal, appreciable, but if evidence exists that says such marriages are harmful, we have a moral obligation to weigh in on the good vs. the harm and do justice. There is no way we can find out that such marriages will turn out great, but if there is chance that it might be both physically and physiological harmful to the girl, that should be enough for any concerned Muslim to prevent it. It is our religious and ethical duty to do so. Prophets are Prophets, their circumstances are unique i.e. marrying more than 4 wives. Heck we are even told to marry one, which is better.

And yes, there is a condition in Islam on marriages, that is called Baligh, which is not only about puberty, but also about mental soundness. So if you are 6 and have hit puberty, but you still act like a child, you are not Baligh.

Baligh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



It is interesting though that you have extended the age of Aisha ra to 12, while Sahi Hadiths say she was 6, and the marriage was consummated at 9. If it wasn't an issue, you wouldn't have said 12. Now you of course you are going to say that there are this and that Hadiths, Scholars or reports that differ with the age issue, which is EXACTLY what I am stressing here.

I hope you understand now.
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Default 02-14-2011, 06:38 PM

Sad that Wrayun never actually said, "I don't support the marraige of older men to younger women," yet note the responses! People don't read anymore? Or we just don't reflect? Or do we skip every other word, or maybe line, when reading? Or do we think we know what the person's gonna say anyway so why bother reading her/him?

Wrayuna, you're not gonna get anywhere with this. No matter what you say, the same folks will from now on tell you in all of your future posts that "who cares. You don't believe in hadiths anyway." I used to be involved in such discussions, and then I realized they were too circular, and folks refused to think about what was being said and were here more to prove you wrong or to compete with you than to learn and teach. ~sighs~ So now I just watch and listen--and pity.
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Default 02-14-2011, 07:18 PM

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Originally Posted by Roshina View Post
Sad that Wrayun never actually said, "I don't support the marraige of older men to younger women," yet note the responses! People don't read anymore? Or we just don't reflect? Or do we skip every other word, or maybe line, when reading? Or do we think we know what the person's gonna say anyway so why bother reading her/him?

Wrayuna, you're not gonna get anywhere with this. No matter what you say, the same folks will from now on tell you in all of your future posts that "who cares. You don't believe in hadiths anyway." I used to be involved in such discussions, and then I realized they were too circular, and folks refused to think about what was being said and were here more to prove you wrong or to compete with you than to learn and teach. ~sighs~ So now I just watch and listen--and pity.
Well the issue is whether the point is moot or not right? The reason folks are taking exception to this is that, as you point out, they are not reading what Wrayun is trying to say. However, Wrayun is also not comprehending the immensity of his words requiring further elucidation and explanation in regard to the role of hadith literature in religion.

On the other hand, the Wrayun critics wrongly think that he is advocating throwing the baby (hadith) out with the bathwater (folks that misinterpret the hadith). Instead he appears to be advocating throwing out the bathwater with more bathwater, which is not wrong at all.


Folks like John Burton that advocated a Quran analysis only ideology to orientalism and he had to step back after examining all the evidence. He initially advocated to the point of dismissing all hadith literature because he attempted to prove jurists fabricated hadith even to undermine the Quran itself. He believed that the Quran was fully in book form in the time of the Prophet and that the Uthmanic collection story was fabricated. Wansborough took the opposite viewpoint and believed that hadith literature was but a fabrication to buttress a greater fabrication and Cook and Crone ran away with his theory to the point of absurdity.

Now we have John Brown out in Seattle blowing all the ducks out of the water in terms of debunking attempts to diminish the integral role that hadith play. This is excellent because it makes sure that imaginative folks do not run away and bend Quranic ayaahs out of their proper context to the point of "following their vain desires":

YouTube - A Brief History Of Hadith Collection And Criticism

However, Wrayun is correct that hadith, like the writings of the early founding fathers, are weighty and require a huge amount of responsibility when attempting to use them for legal interpretation. Abu Bakr himself saw this:

Kanz Ul Ummal, Vol 5, pg 237,

as reported by Aisha bint Abu Bakr:

"My father collected the Hadith of the Prophet (s), and they were five-hundred in number. He spent the night being undecided [about them]. I said that he was undecided because of a complaint or something that had reached him. In the morning he said: "Oh my daughter! Bring me all the Hadiths that are with you". I gave them to him and he burnt them..."

Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Vol 1, pg 4, and also in Kanz ul Ummal, Vol 3, pg 126 that:
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