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Default 10-20-2012, 02:21 PM

My evidence is here

http://www.quran-st.net/SUB-INDEX.htm
Click this link or take the Holy Quran and count the total number of verses you have on the non religious stuff. My rough estimate is only 10 %. If it is more than that then you may prove it.

My position which you may describe in one word is secularism. Secularism is beneficial for both the religion and the state. Both don't interfere in each other's domains. Just think over my position and a man of mental caliber like you will find some reason in my position that Islam is only a religion not a system and Quran is a religious book not a complete code of life. Secularism is guarantee for both state and religion.


If there have been HEADS cut off by advanced western states by revolutionary penal codes such as when Robespierre ran the French revolution, much less hands has nothing to do with our discussion on Quran and Islam.

Yes the Ottoman Sultanate, Aurgenzaib, and even the Afghan Kings such as Zaman Shah instituted brutal criminal punishments but you call it BRUTAL. It means these punishments are brutal then how can you advocate them?

The use of these punishments by few caliphs in 1400 years speaks itself of its non applicability and its mention for spiritual or deterrence purpose. A penal code should have millions of examples not few in 14 centuries. I hate Omayyads and Abbasids and other dictators who killed each other for power in the name of Islam and even brutally murdered the grandson of the Prophet. Except the few caliphs all other were a stigma on the name of Islam. They cant be cited as models and promulgators of Islam.

Quran the book of religion cant be termed as constitution. compare it with any constitution of the world and you will find it lacking in many aspects. How a book 90% for beliefs, worship and morality can serve as constitution for a state.

The constitution of Medina can be termed as a political document but that is not Quran. Muhammad was a prophet for religion but also an Arab ruler. That was his act being a ruler not as a prophet.
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Default 10-20-2012, 06:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Badlun View Post
My evidence is here

http://www.quran-st.net/SUB-INDEX.htm
Click this link or take the Holy Quran and count the total number of verses you have on the non religious stuff. My rough estimate is only 10 %. If it is more than that then you may prove it.

My position which you may describe in one word is secularism. Secularism is beneficial for both the religion and the state. Both don't interfere in each other's domains. Just think over my position and a man of mental caliber like you will find some reason in my position that Islam is only a religion not a system and Quran is a religious book not a complete code of life. Secularism is guarantee for both state and religion.


If there have been HEADS cut off by advanced western states by revolutionary penal codes such as when Robespierre ran the French revolution, much less hands has nothing to do with our discussion on Quran and Islam.

Yes the Ottoman Sultanate, Aurgenzaib, and even the Afghan Kings such as Zaman Shah instituted brutal criminal punishments but you call it BRUTAL. It means these punishments are brutal then how can you advocate them?

The use of these punishments by few caliphs in 1400 years speaks itself of its non applicability and its mention for spiritual or deterrence purpose. A penal code should have millions of examples not few in 14 centuries. I hate Omayyads and Abbasids and other dictators who killed each other for power in the name of Islam and even brutally murdered the grandson of the Prophet. Except the few caliphs all other were a stigma on the name of Islam. They cant be cited as models and promulgators of Islam.

Quran the book of religion cant be termed as constitution. compare it with any constitution of the world and you will find it lacking in many aspects. How a book 90% for beliefs, worship and morality can serve as constitution for a state.

The constitution of Medina can be termed as a political document but that is not Quran. Muhammad was a prophet for religion but also an Arab ruler. That was his act being a ruler not as a prophet.
Quran is not a book of economics or business. It is a book of guidance for the human beings to get salvation in the hereafter. For that purpose some basic principles have been set, boundaries have been identified.
If it was a book of science or economics then Einstien would be the messenger of God and all other scientists and economists would also be prophets of God but that is not the case.
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Default 10-21-2012, 01:42 PM

This is exactly what I mean that Quran is not a book of economics or business. It is a book of moral guidance for the human beings to get salvation in the hereafter. Salvation in the hereafter is a religious subject, a belief and yes Quran deals with it in almost all chapters with fullest details . Quran gives details of all beliefs, modes of worship and morality which is religion but does not go beyond that in detail.

Yes it is not a book of book of science or economics and yes again that then Einstein would be the messenger of God and all other scientists and economists would also be prophets of God but that is not the case.

Prophet was for religion and not for all modes of life as you have beautifully elaborated.
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Default 10-21-2012, 07:46 PM

the fact that the quran says that interest is haram turns the entire modern economic structure of the world upside down. this, despite being a minute detail in the whole of the quran. this is the power of the small details.

the quran does not need to go into detail about most things. for example, killing an innocent person...its pretty clear cut and does not need to go into pages of detail.

this is not a science book or one of economics but it has laid down facts of the past and prohibitions of the present to believers.

the quran talks about those who have looked to twist words in order to justify their non belief, you are no different from the countless others including the christians and the jews. if you want to preach what you believe, so be it, but don't pollute the message of islam while you're at it.


There is nothing in our book, the Qur'an, that teaches us to suffer peacefully. Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone lays a hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion.

- Malcolm X
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Default 10-22-2012, 02:49 AM

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Originally Posted by Badlun View Post
This is exactly what I mean that Quran is not a book of economics or business. It is a book of moral guidance for the human beings to get salvation in the hereafter. Salvation in the hereafter is a religious subject, a belief and yes Quran deals with it in almost all chapters with fullest details . Quran gives details of all beliefs, modes of worship and morality which is religion but does not go beyond that in detail.

Yes it is not a book of book of science or economics and yes again that then Einstein would be the messenger of God and all other scientists and economists would also be prophets of God but that is not the case.

Prophet was for religion and not for all modes of life as you have beautifully elaborated.
You are wrong. my reply was in response to your post where you are crying and trying to prove that Islam has nothing to do with politics, economics or sciences but its a religion of beliefs only. But you are totally wrong, an Islamic state without Quran is incomplete. quran does not go into the details of science but tell us briefly about embriology, astronomy, geology, physics, bio, chemistry and many other sciences and the same way it tells us about how to run the govt, how to serve the people, what punishments to be given for the specific crime in a specific situation.
again if it was a book of science or economics, its revelation would still be in process would never be ended. quran sets basic principles and for the rest Allah says ponder in whatever have created.
at the other hand secularism totally dismantles the spirit of quran. it is a system where human being take decisions according to their own wishes which contradicts the message of the holy quran which is totall submission to almighty Allah.
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Default 10-22-2012, 11:00 AM

This is good discussion which need a separate topic for further details. I am happy that members are realizing the facts that Quran is giving details of religious topics like beliefs and few introductory remarks about non religious aspects of life.

Secularism is a very good concept. It is not against Quran or religion. It wont touch for examples that there should be no prayers as it is a religious subject but will stop state to interfere in religion and vice versa. Let us understand secularism in its positive way and I am sure all educated members will appreciate it.
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Default 10-22-2012, 05:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Badlun View Post
This is good discussion which need a separate topic for further details. I am happy that members are realizing the facts that Quran is giving details of religious topics like beliefs and few introductory remarks about non religious aspects of life.

Secularism is a very good concept. It is not against Quran or religion. It wont touch for examples that there should be no prayers as it is a religious subject but will stop state to interfere in religion and vice versa. Let us understand secularism in its positive way and I am sure all educated members will appreciate it.
You are so wrong, even empirically, that you are relying on repitition of an error to validate it.

Even by your own offered experiment you fail. Take Surah Baqarah for instance. Its length is greater, if I recall than 2/30th of the Quran itself. A rather massive portion (certainly >10%) of that surah alone is direct orders on business transactions, etiquettes of war, dispensation of charity, divorce law, prescription of prayers, fasting, orders of the hajj.

Once again, you are assuming that I am advocating for the utilization of religion in governance. I am not doing that. I am merely pointing out that you are grossly wrong when it comes to the Islamic paradigm of governance as envisioned by the Quran itself.

One of the examples of where real life and Islamic law collided was the communist attempt at land redistribution in Afghanistan proper. While in theory, I may agree that this approach may actually have been righting a wrong, it directly conflicted with how land is distributed and inherited. Pakistan's provinces are more deserving of a land redistribution schema than any part of Afghanistan due to the actual direct collusion of the landed Khans with the British and the fact that Khans that were antagonistic to the Brits were killed/deprived of land and the land was given to another landlord who would comply with British occupation.

You are not refining the argument, but where one might agree with you is the notion that a misapplication of divine law can lead to devastating consequences. Just as if say 100 uneducated Americans went to some random island and attempted to replicate the intricate governance that the constitution endows and the penal code gives life to, the likelihood for misapplication is very high. There was a recent article in the NY Times about how in many situations of FBI entrapment, the accused are able to get off free, but in the case of Muslims its been a 100% conviction rate. This is obviously because trial by jury/peers has become problematic in an environment where not everyone is as informed about the conflict as a michael scheuer or a bernard lewis.

Even then though, there are details of the the divine law, if the constitution of Islam is the Quran, and the jurists writings and the Prophet's example are used as refinements/applicability of the law that permits for more leverage. Take for instance the land redistribution scheme. There were instances where the first two caliphs did have land dealings that broke the typical inheritance patterns. There were, as I mentioned previously instances where the penal code was modified in particular settings based on prophetic example. Finally, Muhammad (S) himself appears to have done quiet a bit of separating the individual from the state. There were two prominent examples: A man came to him to try and admit adultery and the prophet repeatedly turned away from and only instigated questioning when the man insisted he be punished by the state. In yet other instances he indicated that believers ought not air their dirty laundry/sins out in the public and approach God for forgiveness. In yet a final instance/example he indicated that he strongly preferred the believers come to congregation prayers and was extremely angry about their nonattendance but indicated that he would not execute a punishment on them.

With respect to Zaman Shah and brutality etc. Brutality was done due to injustice being rendered. Killing Painda Khan in such a brutal way was unbefitting and tyrannical. But that has nothing to do with Islamic law.

Even in the West there is a very vibrant debate as the USA, the state you worship, is viewed by Europeans to be a barbaric state that punishes crimes with capital punishment. The Europeans also criticize the Americans for not being secular enough.

But once again, the foolish crux of your argument has nothing at all to do with what the Quran is. Its your clear cut goal of subverting it so that Osho can do whatever osho wants. If Osho wants to drink alcohol or do heroine, Osho doesnt want the Quran in the way (even though interestingly enough the Americans themselves played with the concept of prohibition and there is a severe punishment for accessing illegial opioids.)

As I noted, the burden of proof, i.e. proving that the Quranic prescriptions are exactly the same as the spiritual motifs of the new testament has not been at all proven by you.

Your ridiculous repitition of the same 10% argument ought to be reprimanded by the moderators as you simply are repeating an invalid point. E.g. if only 10% of a physics book is Ohms law does that make it less important or valid????

Please come back when you find a way to not parrot ridiculous commentary to validate your own insecurities.

With respect to the caliphs and the Ummayads and Abbasids, your view of them has nothing to do with whether say, Umar bin Abdul Aziz executed the punishments with justice or not. You asked for examples post the Caliphate Rashidun of executioners of the laws of the Quran and we provided it.


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Default 10-23-2012, 11:24 AM

The discussion will continue here

http://www.pashtunforums.com/showthread.php?t=33392
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Default 10-24-2012, 07:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Badlun View Post
My evidence is here

http://www.quran-st.net/SUB-INDEX.htm
Click this link or take the Holy Quran and count the total number of verses you have on the non religious stuff. My rough estimate is only 10 %. If it is more than that then you may prove it.

My position which you may describe in one word is secularism. Secularism is beneficial for both the religion and the state. Both don't interfere in each other's domains. Just think over my position and a man of mental caliber like you will find some reason in my position that Islam is only a religion not a system and Quran is a religious book not a complete code of life. Secularism is guarantee for both state and religion.


If there have been HEADS cut off by advanced western states by revolutionary penal codes such as when Robespierre ran the French revolution, much less hands has nothing to do with our discussion on Quran and Islam.

Yes the Ottoman Sultanate, Aurgenzaib, and even the Afghan Kings such as Zaman Shah instituted brutal criminal punishments but you call it BRUTAL. It means these punishments are brutal then how can you advocate them?

The use of these punishments by few caliphs in 1400 years speaks itself of its non applicability and its mention for spiritual or deterrence purpose. A penal code should have millions of examples not few in 14 centuries. I hate Omayyads and Abbasids and other dictators who killed each other for power in the name of Islam and even brutally murdered the grandson of the Prophet. Except the few caliphs all other were a stigma on the name of Islam. They cant be cited as models and promulgators of Islam.

Quran the book of religion cant be termed as constitution. compare it with any constitution of the world and you will find it lacking in many aspects. How a book 90% for beliefs, worship and morality can serve as constitution for a state.

The constitution of Medina can be termed as a political document but that is not Quran. Muhammad was a prophet for religion but also an Arab ruler. That was his act being a ruler not as a prophet.

Your argument holds no ground, the concept of Islam being a way of life is not solely stemed from the Quran (which is the bases of your claim for Islam not being a way of life). Muhammad pbuh lived and we as muslims aim to follow the way he lived, in short Islam is a way of life because its a conjuntion of Quran and Hadith.


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Default 10-24-2012, 07:46 AM

Actually Badlum and many other secularists sees Islam as they look at Christianity though the message of Islam is totally different from the message of Christianity not only in beliefs but in dealings and actions as well.
They think that they will destroy Islam the way they have done with Christianity but it is not possible because Islam is a living religion and its source is free from errors, its message is close to the nature, its message is based on truth and this is what makes Islam a living religion, it is closer to the realities of life and it provides more attraction for the truth seeker than any other religion or ism does. Other religions or secularism or any isms which stems from atheism or materialism take you away from nature, take you away from God, take you away from the true essence of life, take you away from the real purpose of life but push you into the darkness of materialism and to the world of "nafs" where you become a slave of your "nafs". You do whatever your "nafs" tells you to do and it makes you finally a Shaytaan.

Last edited by Friend; 10-24-2012 at 07:55 AM.
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