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Reload this Page Pashtun Awakening: Defeat the Taliban by Changing the Narrative
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Default 09-22-2012, 07:42 PM

what some people might consider 'give' others might consider 'force'.
and one mans idea of justice might be anothers idea of torture. like your guantanemo.

Last edited by faye; 09-22-2012 at 08:49 PM.
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Default 09-22-2012, 09:22 PM

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Originally Posted by khushal View Post
There was no resistance from the pashtuns since it was not forced but there was in the northern areas by hazara/uzbek/tajik factions. Their rejection was the result of centuries of pashtun domination over them although the pashtun/tajik rivalries have never been bloody on the contrary the pashtun/hazara and tajik/hazara rivalries have always been bloody through history and this one was no different.


That was before the Taliban started bullying Pashtuns around for beards, listening to music and dancing Attan

don't be intellectually dishonest Khushal.
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Default 09-23-2012, 03:12 AM

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Originally Posted by RevolutionThroughReason View Post
Pashtunwali is not compatible with democracy because Mashars are determined by Lineage and relationship with Mashars from the past; this is almost a form of dynastic culture.

in democratic institutions Mashars are determined by merit.
you are confusing khanan and meshran. what you mean is khan. some of them are great land owners that they inherit from their fathers which was given to them by afghan kings or sardaran. a khan has no power in pashtunwali if he has no other qualities except for being rich.
a masher can mobilize his qawm to go to war or to make a decision, he is more influental. to become mashr you have to be considered as ghairatman and nangyalai, you have to be wise, fair and brave. every one can be a mashr even if hes poor. some tribes do determine their meshran by lineage but pure pashtunwali doesnt. you must be accepted and respected by the qawm to become a mashr.
zahir shahs qawm mohammadzai did not practise pashtunwali since they were living modern way of life in big cities, they rejected tribalism.
nadir khan however had tribal relations with paktya and was able to mobilize paktyawalan to fight bache saqawo.
they idea of pashtunwali is eqality, we do not accept one man rule. meshran are just more influental but they have no rights to force anyone to do something. each man and each tribe is sovereign. thats why so many political leaders were rejected by tribes. we never paid taxes because of the abstinence of police in tribal areas. this is why we created arbaki to protect ourselves, so our qawm can survive. this is why we teach our sons to shoot guns so we can protect our houses. afghan kings did nothing for us.
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Default 09-23-2012, 04:11 AM

Darwesh that's all a narrative, an idealized one, but the reality is much different. in truth these "meshran" are "khans" too
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Default 09-23-2012, 05:17 AM

I know. My intention was just to point out the difference between these two type of guys. To limit someones power or influence by Pashtunwali is possible, but mostly just in theory. Tribes are easily manipulated, are hostile to each other, fighting for resources and territory. I'm fine with Pashtunwali morals and ethics but nowadays they get exchanged for $. And to believe that we will be a strong successful educated nation going with Pashtunwali is of course utopia, thats why I think (like did the Wesh Zalmyan) that keeping qawm names prevents Pashtuns from unifying due to the fact that every tribe wants to keep its sovereignty.
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Default 09-23-2012, 04:08 PM

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Originally Posted by RevolutionThroughReason View Post
That was before the Taliban started bullying Pashtuns around for beards, listening to music and dancing Attan

don't be intellectually dishonest Khushal.
that was just in kabul.
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Default 09-23-2012, 04:18 PM

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Originally Posted by Darweshkhel View Post
I know. My intention was just to point out the difference between these two type of guys. To limit someones power or influence by Pashtunwali is possible, but mostly just in theory. Tribes are easily manipulated, are hostile to each other, fighting for resources and territory. I'm fine with Pashtunwali morals and ethics but nowadays they get exchanged for $. And to believe that we will be a strong successful educated nation going with Pashtunwali is of course utopia, thats why I think (like did the Wesh Zalmyan) that keeping qawm names prevents Pashtuns from unifying due to the fact that every tribe wants to keep its sovereignty.
These people have never been to afghanistan or have only been in the cities. they dont know how the rurals live or have lived for thousands of years. The issue is as you say that the rurals have to give up their own tribal sovereignty for a central government to have authority over them and that is where the clash and instability is stemming from.
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Default 09-23-2012, 04:21 PM

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Originally Posted by faye View Post
what some people might consider 'give' others might consider 'force'.
and one mans idea of justice might be anothers idea of torture. like your guantanemo.
justice is not forced, it is given.
no sane person considers torture as justice or vice versa.
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Default 09-23-2012, 04:47 PM

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Originally Posted by khushal View Post
that was just in kabul.


No that was everywhere, that's why when the tribes of Qandahar had an opportunity they rose up against the Taliban; go back to all the reports from 2001 on how the Taliban lost sway with local Qandaharis and they had to broker a deal with Alakozai chiefs to escape

you're descriptions of things are pure deceitful bull****
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Default 09-23-2012, 04:48 PM

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Originally Posted by khushal View Post
These people have never been to afghanistan or have only been in the cities. they dont know how the rurals live or have lived for thousands of years. The issue is as you say that the rurals have to give up their own tribal sovereignty for a central government to have authority over them and that is where the clash and instability is stemming from.


It's not that; you're a blatant liar, even Darwesh amended his statement after my response.

so stop trying to play off this fallacious "they've never been there" excuse
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