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Reload this Page Indo-European homeland, Pashtun point of view?
Poll: In your opinion, the most likely homeland is?
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In your opinion, the most likely homeland is?

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Tor Gul Tor Gul is offline
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Default 08-27-2012, 12:02 PM

I think the difficulty in establishing a homeland is due to the Indo-European moniker and the insistence of the academic community in combining the Semitic & Japhethic peoples into one homogeneous race. if they are divided in accordance with the scriptures then the archeological evidence becomes more clear. the Semites originate in the levant, while the Japhethites originate north of the caucasus between the black & caspian seas. from there they spread primarily east & west and a smaller group going south.

Last edited by Tor Gul; 08-27-2012 at 12:53 PM.
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DMXX DMXX is offline
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Default 08-28-2012, 06:23 AM

The totality of the evidence (genetic, linguistic, archaeological) suggests the Proto-Indo-European homeland is in what is now south Russia. These people were semi-pastoral nomads whose language (Proto-Indo-European) shows interactions with proto-Kartvelian (Caucasian) and Semitic.

The Pashtun territories - As well as the Iranian plateau for that matter - Have the position of being recipients of one sub-branch of the Indo-European languages, which is Iranian. Even then, the origin of its' branch (Proto-Indo-Iranian/Late Indo-Iranian) lies much further north in what is now Kazakhstan. Archaeologists have assigned the Sintashta and Andronovo cultures to them.

A "Pashtun POV" is completely irrelevant to the discussion, given the Indo-European question is a scientific one which should be investigated and expressed in as objective a way as possible.
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Indo-Europeanist Indo-Europeanist is offline
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Default 09-02-2012, 08:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
The totality of the evidence (genetic, linguistic, archaeological) suggests the Proto-Indo-European homeland is in what is now south Russia. These people were semi-pastoral nomads whose language (Proto-Indo-European) shows interactions with proto-Kartvelian (Caucasian) and Semitic.

The Pashtun territories - As well as the Iranian plateau for that matter - Have the position of being recipients of one sub-branch of the Indo-European languages, which is Iranian. Even then, the origin of its' branch (Proto-Indo-Iranian/Late Indo-Iranian) lies much further north in what is now Kazakhstan. Archaeologists have assigned the Sintashta and Andronovo cultures to them.

A "Pashtun POV" is completely irrelevant to the discussion, given the Indo-European question is a scientific one which should be investigated and expressed in as objective a way as possible.
Agreed with everything in this post (excellent post by the way), especially the irrelevance of the Pashtun POV. I started this thread out of curiousity, as a comparison between the Pashtun vis-ą-vis the Indian mentality. Indians have in the past argued that India was the proto-Indo-European urheimat. This is not uncommon with other modern Indo-European speaking ethnic groups, that they argue a geographic poition based on their own ethnic background.


...
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Default 09-02-2012, 02:28 PM

Just by geography of ethiopia, arabian peninsula and gwadar coast may have been closer at time of arrival of PIE language speakers Out Of Africa, and the existence of a Moenjodaro civilisation regionally closer to Gwadar, I suspect the PIE speakers migrated through Pakistan heading north following river indus upto gandhara and onwards, via river jhelum into kashmir, and consequently left flank spreading to iran, central thrust into afghanistan and northern-stans, eastern flank into himaliya. I am speculating.

Last edited by torkham; 09-02-2012 at 02:31 PM.
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Default 09-20-2012, 10:43 AM

Science paper returned from Discovery after submitting dna ... says im Eastern European "Lituanian region" I have brown hair brown eyes olive complexion Logari/Paghmani back ground.

So based on science Iam Eastern Europoid supporting the Kurgan Migration theory.


Anatolian or Caucasian origins ?
The origins of R1b are not entirely clear to this day. Some of the oldest forms of R1b are found in the Near East and around the Caucasus. Haplogroup R1* and R2* might have originated in southern Central Asia (between the Caspian and the Hindu Kush). A branch of R1 would have developed into R1b* then R1b1* in the northern part of the Middle East during the Ice Age. It presumptively moved to northern Anatolia and across the Caucasus during the early Neolithic, where it became R1b1b. The Near Eastern leftovers evolved into R1b1a (M18), now found at low frequencies among the Lebanese and the Druze.The Phoenicians (who came from modern day Lebanon) spread this R1b1a and R1b1* to their colonies, notably Sardinia and the Maghreb.
The subclades R1b1b1 and R1b1b2 (the most common form in Europe) are closely associated with the spread of Indo-European languages, as attested by its presence in all regions of the world where Indo-European languages were spoken in ancient times, from the Atlantic coast of Europe to the Indian subcontinent, including almost all Europe (except Finland and Bosnia-Herzegovina), Anatolia, Armenia, Europan Russia, southern Siberia, many pockets around Central Asia (notably Xinjiang, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan and Afghanistan), without forgetting Iran, Pakistan, India and Nepal. The history of R1b and R1a are intricately connected to each others. Whereas R1b1 is found is such places as the Levant or Cameroon, R1b1b mostly likely originated in north-eastern Anatolia.

The North Caucasus and the Pontic-Caspian steppe : the Indo-European link
Modern linguists have placed the Proto-Indo-European homeland in the Pontic-Caspian steppe, a distinct geographic and archeological region extending from the Danube estuary to the Ural mountains to the east and North Caucasus to the south. The Neolithic, Eneolithic and early Bronze Age cultures in Pontic-Caspian steppe has been called the Kurgan culture (Marija Gimbutas), due to the lasting practice of burying the deads under mounds (“kurgan”) among the succession of cultures in that region. Horses were first domesticated around 4000 BCE in the steppe, perhaps somewhere around the Don or the lower Volga, and soon became a defining element of steppe (7000-2200 BCE) by culture. During the Bronze-age period, known as the Yamna horizon (3300-2500 BCE), the cattle and sheep herders adopted wagons to transport their food and tents, which allowed them to move deeper into the steppe, giving rise to a new mobile lifestyle that would eventually lead to the great Indo-European migrations.

The Pontic-Caspian steppe cultures can be divided in a western group, ranging from the Don River to the Dniester (and later Danube), and an eastern one, in the Volga-Ural region. The Pontic steppe was probably inhabited by men of mixed R1a and R1b lineages, with higher densities of R1b just north of the Caucasus, and more R1a in the the northern steppes and the forest-steppes.
R1b almost certainly crossed over from northern Anatolia to the Pontic-Caspian steppe. It is not clear whether this happened before, during or after the Neolithic. A regular flow of R1b across the Caucasus cannot be excluded either. The genetic diversity of R1b being greater around the Caucasus, it is hard to deny that R1b settled and evolved there before entering the steppe world. Does that mean that Indo-European languages originated in the steppes with R1a people, and that R1b immigrants blended into the established culture ? Or that Proro-Indo-European language appear in northern Anatolia or in the Caucasus, then spread to the steppes with R1b ? Or else did Proro-Indo-European first appear in the steppe as a hybrid language of Caucasian/Anatolian R1b and steppe R1a ? This question has no obvious answer, but based on the antiquity and archaic character of the Anatolian branch (Hittite, Palaic, Luwian, Lydian, and so on) an northern Anatolian origin of Proto-Indo-European is credible. Furthermore, there is documented evidence of loan words from Caucasian languages in Indo-European languages. This is much more likely to have happened if Proto-Indo-European developed near the Caucasus than in the distant steppes. R1b would consequently have been the spreading factor of PIE to the steppes, and from there to Europe, Central Asia and South Asia....Without DNA testing it is impossible to say if these two populations were an Anatolian R1b group and a G2a Caucasian group, or whether R1a people had settled there two. The two or three etnicities might even have cohabited side by side in different settlements. Typical Caucasian Y-DNA lineages (such as G2a) do not follow the pattern of Indo-European migrations, so intermarriages must have been limited, or at least restricted to Indo-European men taking Caucasian wives rather than the other way round.....

..The rise of the IE-speaking Hittites in Central Anatolia happened a few centuries after the disappearance of the Maykop culture. A back migration from the North Caucasus to northern Anatolia is very likely in this age of expansion. What is certain is that the Hittites used chariots, invented in the Volga-Ural steppes. R1a being found a low frequencies in Armenia and northern Anatolia, it is not unreasonable to imagine that a hybrid group of R1a-R1b from the Volga-Ural region migrated to this region sometime between 2000 BCE and 1650 BCE.

http://www.szabir.com/blog/r1b-and-t...ean-languages/


Quod Erat Demonstrandum

Last edited by Apollyon; 09-20-2012 at 11:33 AM.
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Default Lithanian - 09-21-2012, 09:58 AM

Post a mugshot to see the phenotype of a lithuanian gene holder with logar and kabul background looks like.
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Default 10-02-2012, 04:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indo-Europeanist View Post
Agreed with everything in this post (excellent post by the way), especially the irrelevance of the Pashtun POV. I started this thread out of curiousity, as a comparison between the Pashtun vis-ą-vis the Indian mentality. Indians have in the past argued that India was the proto-Indo-European urheimat. This is not uncommon with other modern Indo-European speaking ethnic groups, that they argue a geographic poition based on their own ethnic background.
Of course, although the Out-of-India camp usually campaign for the "indigenousness" of the Aryans rather than Proto-Indo-European itself.

If a pro-Indian PIE perspective exists, it will be thoroughly contrived and unscientific given the lack of anything distinctly Indo-European which isn't Indo-Iranian before 1000 B.C.

Has this thread met your objectives, by the way?
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Default 10-02-2012, 08:30 PM

There are only two possible places, the BMAC area in central asia/north afghanistan or Anatolia
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Default 10-03-2012, 02:31 PM

For sure it is somwhere arround the Caspian sea, if You lok with that almost all theories agree.
I Think genetically it seems in an aspect that Armenian highland, Anatolia or Western Iran will fit well, in the sense of Y chromosome haplogroups.
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