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Default 03-27-2012, 05:39 PM

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Originally Posted by DaMalakandGhar View Post
I wonder why waste time on Shahbaz Khan like people---who care about tissue papers ---that claims to be a Pukhtun but has typical looks of an Indic---Far more loathsome is his intellectual mediocracy probably inflicted by "Mutalia-Pakistan". We have millions of "real Pukhtun" youngsters ready to stand for self-definition and Pukhtuns right to exist as a nation
Shahbaz looks pretty Pakhtun to me



as if this guy doesn't look Indic, he looks like an old Indian pahlawan

or a tanned Super Mario

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Default 03-27-2012, 10:28 PM

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Originally Posted by BarakzaiAbdali View Post
Ghaznavi brother,

As always history is more complex than that narrative. I have not spoken up too much about this because I think these discussions are theoretical. Theoretics are just a form of theatrics when the application is not achieved or ceases to be practical.

In reality, Afghan land was sold, not once... not simply by Abdurrahman.. but TWICE.

And not by the local tribes either. Those proud Pashtuns actually put up a gallant defense against the Sikhs and were betrayed, not by other local tribes, but by the Barakzai overlords that Kabul had designated as the sardaraan of Peshawaar. These were groups of brothers, some based in Qandahar and some in Peshawar.

One brother in particular, who is actually buried in Afghanistan and who was born in Afghanistan, and was an extension of the Afghan governance until he had his own greedy falling out with Dost Mohammad, was Sultan Muhammad Telai.

If we later on look at Aburrahman as inking out deal with the British, the person who transferred the goods was his grand grand Uncle Sultan Muhammad Telai.

Sultan Muhammad actually sold out Peshawar to the Singhs and did not support the zeal of Dost Mohammad in retaking it.

The prior Kabul dynasty had been dumb enough to treat the Pashtun tribes as vassals and place sardaraan to oversee independent tribes.

These local Pashtun tribes were heavily taxed and were not treated as "brothers in arms" by the subsequent Pashtun dynasties.

Nonetheless they valiantly fought the sikhs until the sardaraan of Peshawar further sold them out.

This has always been one aspect of the earlier history behind the durand conflict that has never been addressed: the role of the Peshawar Sardaraan in not only turning property over... but rather turning it over to Sikhs of all people.

Even then, the Sikhs and the British found that they could try and organize the Wazirs and Mehsuds into little mirrors of Khybar Rifles, but each time they looked away, these tribals would mutiny and massacre their men.

So if we are to blame anybody for the Sikh domination and the British incursion (and recall Shah Shujah was also instrumental in sustaining British rule across the line) then those wretched brothers of Dost Mohammad take the lion's share. Sultan Muhammad himself killed multiple tribal leaders locally.
You cant discuss just parts of history. Dost Mohammads son Wazir Akbar Khan made many campaigns into KP to try to wrestle it from the Brits with no success because of no local support. He succeeded in Afghanistan but failed in KP. Dont forget that the Brits went all the way to Kabul. Was the land between Peshewar and Kabul sold to the brits as well. If so then we were all sold.

If you beleive that KP pashtuns have been sold twice by the Afghan Royals, let us not lose count of how many times Islamabad sold them. It is the KP pashtuns themselves that are being used as cannon fodder for the ends of Islamabad means.

Last edited by khushal; 03-28-2012 at 01:37 AM.
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Default 03-28-2012, 01:52 AM

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Originally Posted by BarakzaiAbdali View Post
But that is what I said when I first started out here. The idea that "we are Pashtuns" is the hook... the line is Pashtunistan... and loya Afghanistan is the sinker. What God fearing person, or if one wants to be secular about it, or even atheistic about it (we can refer to humanism) would say we that another human being, with his own God given (or humanism given???) right to self determination who has decided his lot is with someone else would want to genocide his own (this other person)? Then the idea inverts and implodes... the hook is made of sand, the line is poisoned and the whole mess stinks because the blood of others will stain it. It then becomes a preverse lie.

Then their notion that they do not have well wishers across the durand line is proven correct; their conspiracy theories are proven true. Rather, they are simply seen as a means to an end... and expendable. And all, including strong ties to their Hindustani enemy with military support will be included in this march forward. This then finds an anchor in the perception that the Pashtunistan movement was a Daud era device to accomplish this ends by the aforementioned means. If this is so, why not be honest about it and just present it as was said? Then, the Durrani and Ghilzai brother can tell his other Durrani and Ghilzai brothers, the Wazirs, the Mehsuds, The Khalils, the Afridis, the Tor Khels, the Yusufzais that they are a national security hindrance to Afghanistan, plain and simple. Why the flowery language of Pashtun interdependence and Pashtunistan? Is it a ruse? Is it a bribe to tell them that if they join they wont suffer as much? If they mention Saleh, tell them that they better not mention his name again or else a boot is coming into their mouth.
If your talking about Karzai or Toramana mindset people or even the Zardaris of the world, then they do not have well wishers. We are talking about theory here. South Asia has always been invaded by Central Asians, it is a natural course for central asians to go south towards the Indian Ocean for nothing more than survival. Ever since the Brits the South Asians have used Afghanistan as the buffer or the "Great Wall" if you want to use the Chinese version of its buffer between them and their northern neighbors who always invaded them. This "Great Wall" as a defense is an ends to their means. Who has suffered? Them or us, whose land is burning? Their or ours, whose mouths are boots being shoved into? Theirs or ours.

KP Pahstuns are naive to think they are better off with Islamabad. Islamabad is the obsticle of uniting this vast land of south and central asia into one unit. Islamabad was created by the Brits for this very purpose. Afghans or any other Central Asians will never stop eyeing the Indian Ocean for as long as it is. It is naive for south Asians to think that central asians would sit still and slowly starve when vast riches(meaning the unity of south and central asia) are an arms reach away. The fire has been burning in Afghanistan and the Pakistanis were naive to think that it will not spread to them. KP pashtuns ignorance is an obsticle of not only to the well being of Central Asians but also to the well being of South Asians because it is their ignorance that makes an obsticle like Islamabad exist.

I dont know why you are mentioning Salah as if people like him have any real power in Afghanistan. The Salehs of Afghanistan are on the verge of extinction. The only reason he even exists is because the US makes it so. Do you really think an Afghan would take Salehs side over a Yusephzai from Swat. If so then why are the Afghans launching attacks from Swat and hitting the Salehs.
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Default 03-28-2012, 02:42 PM

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Originally Posted by khushal View Post
If your talking about Karzai or Toramana mindset people or even the Zardaris of the world, then they do not have well wishers. We are talking about theory here. South Asia has always been invaded by Central Asians, it is a natural course for central asians to go south towards the Indian Ocean for nothing more than survival. Ever since the Brits the South Asians have used Afghanistan as the buffer or the "Great Wall" if you want to use the Chinese version of its buffer between them and their northern neighbors who always invaded them. This "Great Wall" as a defense is an ends to their means. Who has suffered? Them or us, whose land is burning? Their or ours, whose mouths are boots being shoved into? Theirs or ours.

KP Pahstuns are naive to think they are better off with Islamabad. Islamabad is the obsticle of uniting this vast land of south and central asia into one unit. Islamabad was created by the Brits for this very purpose. Afghans or any other Central Asians will never stop eyeing the Indian Ocean for as long as it is. It is naive for south Asians to think that central asians would sit still and slowly starve when vast riches(meaning the unity of south and central asia) are an arms reach away. The fire has been burning in Afghanistan and the Pakistanis were naive to think that it will not spread to them. KP pashtuns ignorance is an obsticle of not only to the well being of Central Asians but also to the well being of South Asians because it is their ignorance that makes an obsticle like Islamabad exist.

I dont know why you are mentioning Salah as if people like him have any real power in Afghanistan. The Salehs of Afghanistan are on the verge of extinction. The only reason he even exists is because the US makes it so. Do you really think an Afghan would take Salehs side over a Yusephzai from Swat. If so then why are the Afghans launching attacks from Swat and hitting the Salehs.
Salamoona Khushal,

Regarding the British invading into Kabul and Kandahar, I think the difference is the Sikh wave. The official acceptance of the Sikh inland into Peshawar and onward almost into Afghanistan (where they were stopped) was via Sultan Muhammad taking their side; he was the appointed Sardar. He and his brothers were forcibly implanted into the region as overlords over other local Pashtuns. They did a lot of damage to local tribal pedigrees/leaders and killed many to cement their role. So the issue is that the very desecendents of Sultan Muhammad Telai would eventually sit on the Kabul throne. Permitting the Sikhs to get a foot hold into KP with his own treasure and lashkaar was a very bad move on his part.

I agree with you and Shadowgoverner about the only legitimate and real cross border movement being what you noted. However, a crew right here on PF views that as a Pakistani organized movement. So the issue can sort of be summarzied in personifications of movements by 4 stereotypical people:

Karzai: Represents the Afghan Expatriot emigre elites... ---> willing to work with Saleh and currently in power. Only fired Saleh after he was convinced his life was endangered.

Mullah Omar: Represents the insurgency ---> viewed by ANP/Expatriots as an extension of Pakistani policy. Afghan launching from Swat as per your commentary above are classified into this category by "Karzai" group and ANP/PMAP.

Mellat Groupies: Different than ANP, not as into communism and marxism, more into Pashtun dominance, but still a faction of expatriot lineage.

AsfandyaarA/Achekzai: Supports Karzai groupies and has similar view of the Mullah Omar group. Basically ANPiites.

Saleh would not be powerful in isolation, but per his independent Bonn meetings with Congressional leaders, to offer his group's services to fight the Taliban, he is jockying and receiving US support making him someone to be thought about.

So as I noted, the question remains, what would the procedure for reunification be, and under what guise? Would it be under a Karzai government? Would it be under NATO auspices? NATO has done little to gaurantee the safety of Southern Afghans when the ANA's other ethnic group soldiers are utilized in raids in homes. In fact, they use this to their advantage at times to promote fierce subjugation and allow the ANA to get its hands bloody with its own country mens/womens blood.

Mostafa asked a series of questions about whether Koreans of Germans in their divided eras would be given the same discussion by me. I would say that the comparisons are are entirely different situations. East and West Germany were each openly occupied territories with American and Russian forces acting as a base implanted occupying force. The Eastern Germans may have viewed the Soviets as outsider occupants; and perhaps some West Germans may have viewed the Americans in the same way. The KP rural and urban masses on the other hand, contribute soldiers to the Pakistani military and citizenry to the Pakistani government. The other issue with the Korea comparison is he does not delineate who would sweep over who... would it be Southern Koreans "freeing" North Korea or vice versa? I think that South Koreans would have a very different view of what it would mean to be ruled by North Korea, and perhaps vice versa... so yes, the Koreans do have things to consider in regard to how reunification would and should occur per their own gains and advantages on each side.

I agree conquerers have come from Central Asia, but buffer states have also existed in the Mughal era and before.

So as noted, I still think that the breakdown would be as follows regarding reunification:

1) Majority of KP folks are simple people who do not care about such things are are just living their lives. They are not hyper patriots either way but can be become so if they feel threatened.

2) Majority would be fine under a state that does perserve their culture/way of life/language/basic social rights as long as it does not mean trading one master for another coupled to an even worse situation (their current reasonable social stability fracturing and melding into that of a war torn country) ---> Zardari for Hamid Zardarzai and waltzing haphazardly into an even more corrupt and deadly system. This is what some PFers are clamoring for. They think that if Pakistan were to fracture, Zardarzai would snatch up KP and everyone would have a love fest and suddenly Pashtunify loya Afghanistan with ease with NATO clapping its hands and turning us into a super power. If that is not akin to a fundamentalist religious belief system, then I dont know what is.

As I said, even in the era of Timur Shah, Timur Shah undid his father's gains and taxed Peshawar as if it were conquered territory... the response was an attempt on his life by a Khalil tribal leader at Bala Hissar fort. Sultan Muhammad Telai's moves only further fractured Pashtun unity.

3) All together under a large block state as you mentioned. The issue here is that you have your Toramanas, Havi Sultans, Oshos, ANPiites clamoring that this is a Pan Islamist conspiracy.

Regarding Islamabad being worse than being under Kabul government, implicity yes.. explicitly perhaps not. The slow erosion of the Pashto language, culture, and the lack of respect for the province is clear to all. Explicitly, except in Karachi there is not an ethnic militia yet equivalent to that of the Northern Alliance (except perhaps the Pakistani Army itself but that has a large Pashtun contingent in it). One Afghan government official told me that the durand line issue also worked to their advantage as one way governments maintain their semblence of being representative is to focus their people on outside problems as opposed to inner problems. Karzai has attempted this many times. When he comes under the magnifying glass, he clearly diverts to a discussion about Pakistan... so the utilization of a buffer state works both ways. Pakistan uses its status to keep its people in constant paranoia as well.

So once again, I think a vast majority would side with a fair minded Khushalian model, but with the current Karzai government in power, reprimanding the KP Pashtuns appears a little short sighted.

Really the only one who makes the most sense is Shadow governor.

They dont understand that he is not advocating a UN backed Karzai/Sherzai ruling over them... but rather he is advocating a completely larger and more autonomous whole without anyone answering to Zardari in Islamabad or Zardarzai in Kabul.

That is why the language has to be reframed... it looks foolish when Karzai affiliates and admirers are telling patriotic paks that they are slaves. Its like two slaves telling eachother off.


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Default 03-28-2012, 03:04 PM

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Originally Posted by RevolutionThroughReason View Post
Shahbaz looks pretty Pakhtun to me



as if this guy doesn't look Indic, he looks like an old Indian pahlawan

or a tanned Super Mario

Exactly, DaMalakandGhar ( a.k.a toramana the racist ), try to say that pashtuns are Very different to the indics, but this is just impossible, for geographical and historical reasons.


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Default 03-28-2012, 06:57 PM

i think its important to note that abdur rahman khan didn't really have any control of the land beyond the borders of modern day afghanistan to begin with before signing the treaty. had he felt that the pashtuns of that region were favorable to being absorbed into his kingdom, he probably wouldn't of signed the papers. lets not forget that this was also before our modern day pashtun nationalism, there was hardly any ethnic solidarity back then.

also, something of interest is that khan mentions in his autobiography that the british wanted to make kandahar into its own separate country/kingdom from kabul. he says something along the lines of kandahar being the heart of the country or something like that, its been a while since ive read the book.

interesting book if you can find it.


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Default 03-28-2012, 07:00 PM

actually, just found it after a quick google search

http://ia600407.us.archive.org/7/ite...01abdauoft.pdf


There is nothing in our book, the Qur'an, that teaches us to suffer peacefully. Our religion teaches us to be intelligent. Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone lays a hand on you, send him to the cemetery. That's a good religion.

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Default 03-28-2012, 08:58 PM

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actually, just found it after a quick google search

http://ia600407.us.archive.org/7/ite...01abdauoft.pdf
ziiiiiiiiiiin ive been looking for this, for a minute now
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Default 03-28-2012, 11:00 PM

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Originally Posted by randolph85 View Post
actually, just found it after a quick google search

http://ia600407.us.archive.org/7/ite...01abdauoft.pdf
Thank you Randolph. This will make for interesting reading.


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Default 03-28-2012, 11:24 PM

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If your talking about Karzai or Toramana mindset people or even the Zardaris of the world, then they do not have well wishers. We are talking about theory here. South Asia has always been invaded by Central Asians, it is a natural course for central asians to go south towards the Indian Ocean for nothing more than survival. Ever since the Brits the South Asians have used Afghanistan as the buffer or the "Great Wall" if you want to use the Chinese version of its buffer between them and their northern neighbors who always invaded them. This "Great Wall" as a defense is an ends to their means. Who has suffered? Them or us, whose land is burning? Their or ours, whose mouths are boots being shoved into? Theirs or ours. It was always about theory. If one accepts your premise, why wouldn't the "obstacle" that is Islamabad look for strategic depth towards central asia? For Islamabad in your theory, it will go for anyway to co-opt the savages that live beyond the khyber, and get them to calm down, embroil them in their own muck, or the one you see playing out; making a push themselves to connect south asia and central asia - which is what they're doing and will do. The tragedy for Pashtuns is straddling two different regions. Living in two different environments with their own compulsions will naturally create differences in interests, polity, and goals. Interesting that the Pak Pashtuns live in the more stable environment, on the east side of the khyber influenced more by the indus valley/pak/south asia than the western slopes of the khyber. They have access to the more fertile lands, they have ocean access, market access, etc. Constantly out for your survival has got to be tiring. Why would they ever give that up? Isn't that the end state pashtuns/afghans/central asians have been looking for?

KP Pahstuns are naive to think they are better off with Islamabad. Islamabad is the obsticle of uniting this vast land of south and central asia into one unit. Islamabad was created by the Brits for this very purpose. Afghans or any other Central Asians will never stop eyeing the Indian Ocean for as long as it is. It is naive for south Asians to think that central asians would sit still and slowly starve when vast riches(meaning the unity of south and central asia) are an arms reach away. The fire has been burning in Afghanistan and the Pakistanis were naive to think that it will not spread to them. KP pashtuns ignorance is an obsticle of not only to the well being of Central Asians but also to the well being of South Asians because it is their ignorance that makes an obsticle like Islamabad exist. Afghanistanis are naive if they think the Pakis are going to sit on their butt waiting for the central asians to scheme their hackneyed dreams. The south asians too have dreams, to reconnect with central asia just like in the times of the mughals. They don't really mind the invaders since like all invaders before, the invaders will learn to live as south asians, they'll become south asians. Central asians haven't figured out that south asia is fools gold. It will do more to change the central asians. See the KP Pashtuns. KP Pashtuns are the end state for central asians. They are the future of Afghanistan pashtuns if one stretches your premise to the future. The connection of south and central asia is hindered by the buffer entity - Afghanistan. Islamabad, or greater Pak represents that united vast united construct that you dream of. Are you going to get caught slow-footed because the construct is called Pakistan instead of the Durrani empire? You actually have a lot in common with paki nationalists/generals who too want a rejuvenated connection with central asia and its offspring - the mughal successor state that is Pakistan. And they have the narrative which is likely to bring about an actual result - an "Islamic" one. No surprise that the game which Afghanistan started in the 1940s is staring them right in their face. It's made itself redundant, and a true obstacle to the integration of the two muslim regions. Afghanistan is now on the back foot.

I dont know why you are mentioning Salah as if people like him have any real power in Afghanistan. The Salehs of Afghanistan are on the verge of extinction. The only reason he even exists is because the US makes it so. Do you really think an Afghan would take Salehs side over a Yusephzai from Swat. If so then why are the Afghans launching attacks from Swat and hitting the Salehs.
I like geopolitical theorizing. should do more.
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