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Talking Guys this one making my crawl around my room! - 10-28-2010, 11:23 PM

You know what I blame this all on Unknownprince and brother Nokia; had you not with your remarks touting me an Irani and non-Pashtun this guy wouldn't have gone through such an axiety to make a complete joke out of himself. I swear I cannot believe this. Welcome to PF! Congrats boys, we cannot be taken light. Seems the provocative and merely ideas generating thread which rather ended with sheer intensity in pesky name-calling made this career analyst go beserk. lol Nevertheless, the very idea must have legs, must've made it right in to the other hemisphere of some Pakistani analysts' mind whom we strongly encourage to become PF members. I think we can provide good therapy. Haha LMAO!

Mr Helali, what was you thinking writting this article for Al-Arabaya whose readers I suspect hardly have idea to this belaboring you're arcane to. Oh well, the Dari speaking Pakhtuns I am talking about. If one is to believe you then we all might as well worship these guys, particularly for their nationalistic stands and especially on historic issues concerning Pashtuns and the Durrand line which large majority of PF'ers seems to be committed to.

So who exactly are the true Pakhtuns, Dari speaker and Taliban aside? And why would the article end up with that last paragraph. Hahaha

And by the way, Pakistan and Afghansitan are conjoined twins. We only get angry like you do, we don't inherently harbor anything evil for Paksitanis since they are muslims and largely we sympathise with them in their agony that their government's policies have wrough on them as it has on us. We simply vent it here, it is a good thing than having it pented inside us for another occassion. We Pashutns are dying daily NOT you guys comfortably brain-farting strategic crap somewhere in Islamabad or GHQ or other good office of ISI.. we just want peace, nothing else! And what ever else the Pashtun masses wish is their god given right. We have a saying in Pashtu ka ghal nawi no da badshah na ma weereezha! Don't fear even the king if you aren't a thief.

By the way, wallah I am not a Dari speaker. I have only been able to learn my nation's other language in the past half a decade or so. I don't know any elites here, if you do point them out to us. This is really funny.

:
PF experts, kindly, what is your take on this article? After the Pashtu article now this:




Time to recognise the real enemy
Thursday, 28 October 2010


Zafar Hilaly

While the Afghan Tajiks parade their hostility to Pakistan openly, the Dari- speaking elite among the Afghan Pakhtuns are only a step behind. They blame Pakistan for all of Afghanistan's woes, including support for the Taliban-driven insurgency and, of course, for hanging on to a part of Afghanistan that the British had extracted from King Abdul Rahman. Over time, this hatred has festered, so much so that they now seem to believe that all that ails them is due to the ISI. But for Pakistan, everything would be well in the land of pomegranates and grapes.

This Dari-speaking lot is like the Indians. The nicest thing that they can say about Pakistanis is that we are unbearable. And yet it is to Pakistan that they flee whenever trouble arises and it is Pakistan that gives them refuge and becomes for many of them, like for Karzai, their "second home."

So blind is their hatred of Pakistan that they forget that India supported the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and, but for Pakistan, they may well have become another Soviet republic. Instead, they beckon India to Afghanistan and connive with India to stir up revolt in Pakistan; and are no less keen that Iran joins with them and India to offset Pakistan's influence.

It's really extraordinary how quickly the Dari-speaking Pakhtuns take to outsiders, any outsider but Pakistan. The love of communism that some of them sported, whether as members of the Parcham or Khalq brands, fooled the Russians into believing that they would be welcomed by the Afghans. And their nascent fondness for democracy, conjured out of the blue, because Afghanistan has never had any truck with democracy, has seemingly impressed the Americans, much like it did the British when King Amanullah tried to propel a mediaeval kingdom into the 20th century by forcing women to wear skirts.

Actually, this Dari-speaking Pakhtun elite are a confused lot. They accuse Pakistan of harbouring and launching the Taliban, but when Pakistan proposes that we fence the Durand Line they oppose the move vehemently. They wish the Durand Line to be porous when it comes to the thousands of Afghans crossing daily from their country to Pakistan, mostly without visas. And yet, when it comes to the Afghan Taliban, most of whom actually have homes across the Durand Line, they insist that they should be shot when attempting to do so. They obtain multiple-entry visas to visit Pakistan but deny Pakistanis the same facility. They say they do not want foreign interference but have slavishly embraced the American occupation, and while they claim to oppose the presence of foreign insurgents, they say scarcely a word about the lethal Arab and Central Asian militants who abound in Afghanistan. They harbour Baloch secessionists. But when Pakistan retaliates, they complain that Pakistan has a soft spot for their enemies. Nor do they have any qualms about being the largest producers of heroin and opium in the world or the havoc it has caused in Pakistan and elsewhere. Like any effete elite that is selfish, self-serving and self-absorbed, they have proved self-destructive.

Not that Pakistan is blameless. We have interfered in the internal affairs of Afghanistan to an extent that is indeed objectionable. We treat the foreign policy of another state not as its exclusive right and preserve but in some ways also ours. There are good reasons for us to fear that a hostile Afghan elite linked to India will pose a dire strategic threat to our security. But rather than guard against such a contingency by forging closer and more constructive relations with the regime in Kabul, regardless of its political or ethnic hue, we prefer to aid those Afghans who want to replace them.

This "an enemy of my enemy is my friend" approach is short-sighted and outdated. To expect that we can continue in this manner without raising Afghan hackles is naive. And pitting one group of Afghans against another is counter productive. A stable and peaceful Afghanistan, and an Afghanistan that is friendly and alive to our strategic concerns, is much more in our interest than one riven by civil wars, with a shaky regime in Kabul propped up by the US and on the lookout for other sponsors such as India.

Ironically, the two countries that have most to lose by their mutual antipathy and continued war and instability – which, as we speak, is forcing others to look for alternative road and rail routes and those for oil and gas pipelines to Central Asia and the Indian Ocean – are Afghanistan and Pakistan. In fact, it is India and the US which stand to benefit most. India by playing on the anti-Pakistan sentiments of the Dari-speaking Pakhtun elite to work its mischief against Pakistan, and America by taking advantage of the their dread of Pakistan and the Taliban to establish permanent bases in Afghanistan and thereby sit atop an important oil and gas pipeline route. Never forgetting, of course, the American desire to indulge its new obsession – the containment of China.

No wonder, then, that India opposes a US withdrawal from Afghanistan. Similarly, while America is keen to thin out its troop presence, quitting Afghanistan is not what America has in mind, as shown by the manic activity all over Afghanistan building dozens of forward operating bases. The fact that there will be no peace until that happens does not bother the US overly. That is a bridge Washington feels it can cross when it comes to it. Sadly, it is also a state of affairs with which our military feels comfortable, although that is hardly a solution to Afghanistan's woes and eventually could prove inimical to our interests when, rather than if, relations with Washington sour.

Pakistan has also been remiss in not appreciating the genuine fear among Afghanistan's other ethnic and religious groups that if the Taliban obtain untrammelled power they will once again impose their mediaeval doctrines on the hapless Afghan population, and that it is not enough for Pakistan to say that it is none of our business. Supporting a movement that is the living perversion of Islam and helping them in their fight against fellow Muslims is inexcusable as much as it is short-sighted, for these very same bigots will turn on Pakistan, if they are successful in Afghanistan; indeed, they already have, buoyed by their initial gains in Afghanistan.

But it would be no less an error to exaggerate their prospects of success. The Taliban are no longer the irresistible force that they once were; nor as monolithic. Nor is the domestic opposition that the Taliban will face as weak as it was. Actually, given the respective strength of the Taliban and their domestic opponents, including the powerful and well-armed and -trained force that the Tajiks have formed, it is inconceivable that the Taliban will prevail decisively in Afghanistan even if the Afghans were left to fight it out amongst themselves. Anyway, as that won't happen, the inevitable foreign interference will likely augment the strength of their opponents rather than the Taliban's, and hence the latter's success is far less certain.

The question the Dari-speaking Pakhtun elite should ask themselves is, how will their hatred of Pakistan help in fighting off the accursed Taliban? Would it not be far better to have equable relations with Pakistan, somewhat like what Karzai promises but never fulfils, so that whatever Pakistan's support of the Taliban will be diluted and its influence used to counsel restraint? And, if ever there is going to be a Pakistani-Afghan united front against antediluvian elements like the Taliban, Afghanistan must not allow itself to become an Indian dagger pointed at Pakistan, because that in the final analysis is what Pakistan cannot allow at any cost.

As for the issue of Paktunistan, even today, at the worst of times, it is difficult to discover on the ground where Pakistan ends and Afghanistan begins. And no one was really bothered about it except the Dari-speaking Pakhtun elite. Most other Pakhtuns on both sides of the border have felt that the two countries are like lips to teeth. We share the same destiny and the rest does not really count.

Surely it is time for both to recognise their real enemy: namely, their traditional mindsets and age-old and by now irrelevant differences, which have rendered both vulnerable to all kinds of disorder and intervention and made enemies of those who should be brothers.

Link: http://www.alarabiya.net/views/2010/10/28/124002.html

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Default 10-28-2010, 11:44 PM

All he is doing is ranting and ranting. He has nothing to offer in terms of argument except for his personal opinion which is again based on rumors and false facts. The Afghan elite is not Dari-speaking nearly all are bi-lingual. 90 or more of Tajik elite can speak Pashto fluently and they use it to gain votes amongst Pashtuns in the south. He needs to be more distinctive cause he fails with his article. Afghans do not hate Pakistanis, we are conjoined twins but we hate the Pak Army and Govt since it has been as of recent working against us. India as of right now is helping us and Pakistan as of right now is blowing us with bombs.
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Default 10-28-2010, 11:46 PM

Amna PF kho ba manee, aw ma hum! lol
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Default 10-29-2010, 12:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradePashtun View Post
Amna PF kho ba manee, aw ma hum! lol




I google him, here what i got.

"http://en.wordpress.com/tag/zafar-hilaly/
Zafar Hilaly, a close aide of the late Benazir Bhutto"
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Default 10-28-2010, 11:48 PM

Comrade, I am confused with what PF had to do with this? I don't get it.
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Default 10-28-2010, 11:52 PM

Where is this guys coming out with these outrageous ideas and his this perception so neatly constructed? I swear he was reading couple of the threads in our politcs section in relating to Iran's relation with Afghanistan. You are killing the fun.

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Default 10-29-2010, 12:00 AM

Oh ya, that's true. You do know we have many journalists on here right? He is one of the hundreds of guests that log on daily just to read. He probably read a few of Toramana,Khyaal and yours post and wrote that article to Arabs lol.
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Default 10-29-2010, 12:11 AM

Oh crap, smart girl, now I know the Arab angle too, bloody hell it is the Iranians isn't it. Lol I was tired just about to go bed when I came accross this and couldn't believe my eyes, and couldn't even think through the "..article to Arabs".lol Being sleepy that was a little shot in the arm. Night.
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Default 10-29-2010, 12:29 AM

In Khyber Hujra they used to call me that like every post. Anyone that wants to raise Pashtons voice is either a Kafir or Farsiwaan. The shocking part is how these Pakistanis have access in Arab media, we need to be very carefully and must challenge them… I heard there is a Pashton organization in golf states?



Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradePashtun View Post
You know what I blame this all on Unknownprince and brother Nokia; had you not with your remarks touting me an Irani and non-Pashtun this guy wouldn't have gone through such an axiety to make a complete joke out of himself. I swear I cannot believe this. Welcome to PF! Congrats boys, we cannot be taken light. Seems the provocative and merely ideas generating thread which rather ended with sheer intensity in pesky name-calling made this career analyst go beserk. lol Nevertheless, the very idea must have legs, must've made it right in to the other hemisphere of some Pakistani analyst's mind whom we strongly encourage to become PF members. I think we can provide good therapy. Haha LMAO!

Mr Helali, what was you thinking writting this article for Al-Arabaya whose readers I suspect are hardly arcane to this belaboring of your's. Oh well, the Dari speaking Pakhtuns I am talking about. If one is to believe you then we all might as well worship these guys, particularly for their nationalistic stands and especially on historic issues concerning Pashtuns and the Durrand line which large majority of PF'ers seems to be committed to.

So who exactly are the true Pakhtuns, Dari speaker and Taliban aside? And why would end the article with that last paragraph. Hahaha

And by the way, Pakistan and Afghansitan are conjoined twins. We only get angry like you do, we don't inherently harbor anything evil for Paksitanis since they are muslims and largely we sympathise with them in their agony that their government's policies have wrough on them as it has on us. We simply vent it here, it is a good thing than having it pented inside us for another occassion. We Pashutns are dying daily NOT you guys comfortably brain-farting strategic crap somewhere in Islamabad or GHQ or other good office of ISI.. we just want peace, nothing else! And what ever else the Pashtun masses wish is their god given right. We have a saying in Pashtu ka ghal nawi no da badshah na ma weereezha! Don't fear even the king if you aren't a thief.

By the way, wallah I am not a Dari speaker. I have only been able to learn my nation's other language in the past half a decade or so. I don't know any elites here, if you do point them out to us. This is really funny.

:
PF experts, kindly, what is your take on this article? After the Pashtu article now this:




Time to recognise the real enemy
Thursday, 28 October 2010


Zafar Hilaly

While the Afghan Tajiks parade their hostility to Pakistan openly, the Dari- speaking elite among the Afghan Pakhtuns are only a step behind. They blame Pakistan for all of Afghanistan's woes, including support for the Taliban-driven insurgency and, of course, for hanging on to a part of Afghanistan that the British had extracted from King Abdul Rahman. Over time, this hatred has festered, so much so that they now seem to believe that all that ails them is due to the ISI. But for Pakistan, everything would be well in the land of pomegranates and grapes.

This Dari-speaking lot is like the Indians. The nicest thing that they can say about Pakistanis is that we are unbearable. And yet it is to Pakistan that they flee whenever trouble arises and it is Pakistan that gives them refuge and becomes for many of them, like for Karzai, their "second home."

So blind is their hatred of Pakistan that they forget that India supported the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and, but for Pakistan, they may well have become another Soviet republic. Instead, they beckon India to Afghanistan and connive with India to stir up revolt in Pakistan; and are no less keen that Iran joins with them and India to offset Pakistan's influence.

It's really extraordinary how quickly the Dari-speaking Pakhtuns take to outsiders, any outsider but Pakistan. The love of communism that some of them sported, whether as members of the Parcham or Khalq brands, fooled the Russians into believing that they would be welcomed by the Afghans. And their nascent fondness for democracy, conjured out of the blue, because Afghanistan has never had any truck with democracy, has seemingly impressed the Americans, much like it did the British when King Amanullah tried to propel a mediaeval kingdom into the 20th century by forcing women to wear skirts.

Actually, this Dari-speaking Pakhtun elite are a confused lot. They accuse Pakistan of harbouring and launching the Taliban, but when Pakistan proposes that we fence the Durand Line they oppose the move vehemently. They wish the Durand Line to be porous when it comes to the thousands of Afghans crossing daily from their country to Pakistan, mostly without visas. And yet, when it comes to the Afghan Taliban, most of whom actually have homes across the Durand Line, they insist that they should be shot when attempting to do so. They obtain multiple-entry visas to visit Pakistan but deny Pakistanis the same facility. They say they do not want foreign interference but have slavishly embraced the American occupation, and while they claim to oppose the presence of foreign insurgents, they say scarcely a word about the lethal Arab and Central Asian militants who abound in Afghanistan. They harbour Baloch secessionists. But when Pakistan retaliates, they complain that Pakistan has a soft spot for their enemies. Nor do they have any qualms about being the largest producers of heroin and opium in the world or the havoc it has caused in Pakistan and elsewhere. Like any effete elite that is selfish, self-serving and self-absorbed, they have proved self-destructive.

Not that Pakistan is blameless. We have interfered in the internal affairs of Afghanistan to an extent that is indeed objectionable. We treat the foreign policy of another state not as its exclusive right and preserve but in some ways also ours. There are good reasons for us to fear that a hostile Afghan elite linked to India will pose a dire strategic threat to our security. But rather than guard against such a contingency by forging closer and more constructive relations with the regime in Kabul, regardless of its political or ethnic hue, we prefer to aid those Afghans who want to replace them.

This "an enemy of my enemy is my friend" approach is short-sighted and outdated. To expect that we can continue in this manner without raising Afghan hackles is naive. And pitting one group of Afghans against another is counter productive. A stable and peaceful Afghanistan, and an Afghanistan that is friendly and alive to our strategic concerns, is much more in our interest than one riven by civil wars, with a shaky regime in Kabul propped up by the US and on the lookout for other sponsors such as India.

Ironically, the two countries that have most to lose by their mutual antipathy and continued war and instability – which, as we speak, is forcing others to look for alternative road and rail routes and those for oil and gas pipelines to Central Asia and the Indian Ocean – are Afghanistan and Pakistan. In fact, it is India and the US which stand to benefit most. India by playing on the anti-Pakistan sentiments of the Dari-speaking Pakhtun elite to work its mischief against Pakistan, and America by taking advantage of the their dread of Pakistan and the Taliban to establish permanent bases in Afghanistan and thereby sit atop an important oil and gas pipeline route. Never forgetting, of course, the American desire to indulge its new obsession – the containment of China.

No wonder, then, that India opposes a US withdrawal from Afghanistan. Similarly, while America is keen to thin out its troop presence, quitting Afghanistan is not what America has in mind, as shown by the manic activity all over Afghanistan building dozens of forward operating bases. The fact that there will be no peace until that happens does not bother the US overly. That is a bridge Washington feels it can cross when it comes to it. Sadly, it is also a state of affairs with which our military feels comfortable, although that is hardly a solution to Afghanistan's woes and eventually could prove inimical to our interests when, rather than if, relations with Washington sour.

Pakistan has also been remiss in not appreciating the genuine fear among Afghanistan's other ethnic and religious groups that if the Taliban obtain untrammelled power they will once again impose their mediaeval doctrines on the hapless Afghan population, and that it is not enough for Pakistan to say that it is none of our business. Supporting a movement that is the living perversion of Islam and helping them in their fight against fellow Muslims is inexcusable as much as it is short-sighted, for these very same bigots will turn on Pakistan, if they are successful in Afghanistan; indeed, they already have, buoyed by their initial gains in Afghanistan.

But it would be no less an error to exaggerate their prospects of success. The Taliban are no longer the irresistible force that they once were; nor as monolithic. Nor is the domestic opposition that the Taliban will face as weak as it was. Actually, given the respective strength of the Taliban and their domestic opponents, including the powerful and well-armed and -trained force that the Tajiks have formed, it is inconceivable that the Taliban will prevail decisively in Afghanistan even if the Afghans were left to fight it out amongst themselves. Anyway, as that won't happen, the inevitable foreign interference will likely augment the strength of their opponents rather than the Taliban's, and hence the latter's success is far less certain.

The question the Dari-speaking Pakhtun elite should ask themselves is, how will their hatred of Pakistan help in fighting off the accursed Taliban? Would it not be far better to have equable relations with Pakistan, somewhat like what Karzai promises but never fulfils, so that whatever Pakistan's support of the Taliban will be diluted and its influence used to counsel restraint? And, if ever there is going to be a Pakistani-Afghan united front against antediluvian elements like the Taliban, Afghanistan must not allow itself to become an Indian dagger pointed at Pakistan, because that in the final analysis is what Pakistan cannot allow at any cost.

As for the issue of Paktunistan, even today, at the worst of times, it is difficult to discover on the ground where Pakistan ends and Afghanistan begins. And no one was really bothered about it except the Dari-speaking Pakhtun elite. Most other Pakhtuns on both sides of the border have felt that the two countries are like lips to teeth. We share the same destiny and the rest does not really count.

Surely it is time for both to recognise their real enemy: namely, their traditional mindsets and age-old and by now irrelevant differences, which have rendered both vulnerable to all kinds of disorder and intervention and made enemies of those who should be brothers.

Link: http://www.alarabiya.net/views/2010/10/28/124002.html
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Default 10-29-2010, 12:35 AM

this zafar hilali is on some high "strategic death" sorry depth "dope" i wonder why are pakistanis so much into ethnic origen,culture effect,social&family background
man this people are simply too much in love with their favorite past time obsession & national trait of "Racial profiling"

Last edited by Espresso; 10-29-2010 at 07:42 PM.
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