Originally Posted by Wrayun

First, I'm not a hadith rejector, I'm just not a hadith worshiper. I think hadiths make good references, but what's in the hadiths should be open to scrutiny, and shouldn't be compulsory.

Second, I don't have a problem with the Prophet's marriage to Aisha ra. If it happened as it is recorded in the "authentic" Hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim, even though contradictory statements do exist that says otherwise, I believe it to be a special case of circumstances.

I don't believe that 6 years old, or 9 year olds, should be marrying 50 year olds. I also think that those who use the case of the Prophet to entertain their perverted fantasies, shouldn't be allowed to either. However, some people, like you, believe that rejecting hadiths, or practices in the hadith, are technical apostasies.

So I propose a question to you Sangar, will you allow your 6/9 year old to marry a 20/30/40/50 year old man? Remember, I am a Salafi, and I have the Sahi Hadith book with me. If you say anything to the contrary, you are rejecting the practice of the Prophet Mohammad, his Sunnat, his hadith.

So, would you?

Originally Posted by Wrayun

Alchemist,



Just because the Quran or Hadith doesn’t contradict such a marriage, it doesn’t relieve us of our moral obligation to stand up for what is right, and what is wrong. The purpose of religion is to be a moral guidance, to instill in us the sense of justice. When there is scientific evidence available, that such marriages are harmful, to 6 year olds, physically and psychologically, we as Muslims have our moral obligation to protect that child. That’s ethical common sense.



And your assumption is wrong. The Quran and Hadith are and should be open to speculations, otherwise there be no way to interpret or understand many of the so-called scientific “contradictions” in the Quran. We wouldn’t be able to explain what does it mean that the Sun sets in murky water, it has a resting place, that the world is laid out like a carpet. For a long time even midst Pukhtoons everyone believed that the world was flat. That after you reach the four corners of the world, crossing the oceans, you fall straight down into the abyss. People believed that the sun when it sets, went to sleep, it was resting. We now know that isn’t true. We know that those verses didn’t literally mean what it says, so we are forced to speculate.



Interesting thing is that it is reported that Aisha ra called Abu Hurrira a liar, and that Umar ra also put him in check? The Shia also question Aisha ra character. Of course those evil Shia and their books are wrong, why wouldn’t they be? They are not written by Bukhari or Muslim. Right? And I’m sure they feel the same way about Sunni Hadiths. Thus there lies the dilemma.

For as long as we know this Hadith business is the ultimate factor in dividing Muslims. Each sect with their own unique collections of Hadiths, scholars, and edicts, justify their existence and their politics. All the while it is strictly prohibited in the Quran to divide Islam into sects. And this is all done using Hadiths, not the Quran, but Hadiths. That alone should tell us how dangerous this Hadith business is when taken seriously. Even today Sunni Saudi Arabia, authentic Salafi Muslims, support Israel/West against Shia Iran. Quality Muslim scholars use all sorts of Hadiths to justify this. But what does the Quran say?

If you like, try the telephone/Chinese whisper game with your friends and family. Go on to record everything that is said just that single period. You’ll understand why I have an issue with Hadiths. I don’t consider what’s in the Hadith to be facts engraved in stone. There is too much room for discrepancies. 1400 years of whispering.



And what is the source of the marriage, Bukhari? Google contradictions in Bukhari/Hadiths.



No, it doesn’t bother me, the Prophet was the Messenger of God, and had special properties and privileges. What bothers me is when what he supposedly, and I mean supposedly did, is used to determine whether one is a Muslim or not. When what he supposedly did is used to wage war. When what he supposedly did, or allowed, is used to curb the rights of men and women. When people use what he supposedly did, to hijack Islam, and Muslim societies. When what he supposedly did, overrides what is in the Quran, the word of God and common sense. That’s what bothers me.



That just says that you take the words of mere mortal men as infallible, and I don’t. You are idolizing human beings, creatures and slaves of Allah swt. That is blasphemy. I know better not to.

While you are at it, pick up the bible, and worship Jesus. “Of course!" Jesus was crucified and the son of God, it’s in the BIBLE silly! It says so right there, its a fact! Why speculate?

Why the same criticism that is dished out against the Christian bible, a collection of articles written by men, not applied to the collection of Hadiths?

I call that hypocrisy.

Originally Posted by Alchemist

Oh so you worship science then?

You think that science contradicts Quran? That science is on par with the Quran?


You make me laugh.


I call that scientology.


First of all, your understanding of science is limited compared to mines in this respect as you too boldly have stated a general statement and applied it to a specific context. Girls hit puberty as early as six years of age...this has been recorded in tshe annals of history...in effect with raising estrogen levels in the water circulation of cities, girls have been hitting puberty even younger than 6. So there is ample evidence that what we consider to be a "child" a "kid" differs from culture to culture, however, science does not support the western cultural myth that adults are only those above 18. But does this mean that your brain is still immature? And where your presumption falls short is in your belief that people fall under a perfect Bell Curve and that those in the middle exemplify the "norms" and the rest "abnormals". What is normal and what isn't is hypothetical constructs of your own mind.
An example of one being your belief in the myth that ahadith are "stories" whispered for 1400 years. So why don't you believe the same about the Quran? Do you know that the shias say that there are ayats missing from the mass produced Quran? Disunity happened right after the demise of The Holy Prophet (pbuh) so time isn't the real factor here. We study the myths of the old people, from 4000 - 5000 years years ago, and we find similarity in their narrations. Immanuel velikovsky draws a cosmological history from the parrallels that he finds between the famous stories of the greeks, the indians, the europeans and australians to describe a galactic events that these people experienced. Carl Jung studied the mythologies of various culture to find those common underlying features of the stories that resonated with the psychy of individuals. Sayings of The Prophets peace be upon him have likewise been recorded in the psychy of a people who have been muslims since 1400 years ago...and if you can't discern it because your "science" is limited than who do you turn to?

Originally Posted by Roshina

Sad that Wrayun never actually said, "I don't support the marraige of older men to younger women," yet note the responses! People don't read anymore? Or we just don't reflect? Or do we skip every other word, or maybe line, when reading? Or do we think we know what the person's gonna say anyway so why bother reading her/him?

Wrayuna, you're not gonna get anywhere with this. No matter what you say, the same folks will from now on tell you in all of your future posts that "who cares. You don't believe in hadiths anyway." I used to be involved in such discussions, and then I realized they were too circular, and folks refused to think about what was being said and were here more to prove you wrong or to compete with you than to learn and teach. ~sighs~ So now I just watch and listen--and pity.