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helmandboy
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Default Re: Will the World Really End? - 03-13-2010, 11:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathen
Quote:
Originally Posted by shinwari
^Your aqeedah is very weak bro.
bus... cherey na evidence rashi, halta ze imaan larum... te subuut khkara ka ma ta - ze ba waley na umanum..

Talk about ignorance, "Show me proof".


SMH
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Levanaye Zalmaye Levanaye Zalmaye is offline
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Default Re: Will the World Really End? - 03-13-2010, 11:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by helmandboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathen
Quote:
Originally Posted by shinwari
^Your aqeedah is very weak bro.
bus... cherey na evidence rashi, halta ze imaan larum... te subuut khkara ka ma ta - ze ba waley na umanum..

Talk about ignorance, "Show me proof".


SMH

Yeah... I want to see the correlation between people's clothing choices and the catastrophic end of the universe as we know it. :lol:


"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be".

"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives".
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Latif
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Default Re: Will the World Really End? - 03-14-2010, 12:11 AM

^ Are you really a Non-Muslim wrora? Share your views.
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Levanaye Zalmaye Levanaye Zalmaye is offline
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Default Re: Will the World Really End? - 03-14-2010, 12:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by heratigirl
What is wrong with you guys? Leave Heathen alone, If he has different views, Let it be.

Welcome Heathen.
Thank you for understanding....

And I'm sorry if I come across as harsh or arrogant. I live in a society where I can't express my feelings and my views openly because if I do, my family and I will be harassed and killed (judicially or extra-judicially). Everyday, I have to listen to people teaching pseudo-science creationism to kids and adults and filling their susceptible minds with superstition... and it makes me especially angry because I cannot do anything about it.


"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be".

"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives".
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Default Re: Will the World Really End? - 03-14-2010, 12:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heathen
Quote:
Originally Posted by heratigirl
What is wrong with you guys? Leave Heathen alone, If he has different views, Let it be.

Welcome Heathen.
Thank you for understanding....

And I'm sorry if I come across as harsh or arrogant. I live in a society where I can't express my feelings and my views openly because if I do, my family and I will be harassed and killed (judicially or extra-judicially). Everyday, I have to listen to people teaching pseudo-science creationism to kids and adults and filling their susceptible minds with superstition... and it makes me especially angry because I cannot do anything about it.
Which society is this?
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Default Re: Will the World Really End? - 03-14-2010, 01:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sincere
Which society is this?
Everywhere from Morocco to Indonesia. The land that's stuck in 1430, ironically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by musalman
Do you mind arguing your views?
I already have... read the last page of this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deathmatch
I absolutely hate it when people IMPOSE their views on other people, Jeez, Heathen wrora, Stick with your views.
Imagine what I have to go through everyday... I never once imposed any view on anyone, much less my own.


"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be".

"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance; and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives".
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Roshina
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Default Re: Will the World Really End? - 03-14-2010, 03:09 AM

@ Heathen: Yes, our societies aren't really used to having differences of opinion. It's either "our" way or "no way." I know of some Muslims who have completely left Islam because they're not allowed to present their opinions (we're taught that "having opinions is forbidden in Islam because it leads to creation of new branches in Islam, and division in Islam is haraam."). I really don't blame them. We're also taught that anyone who leaves Islam is to be killed, and then you ask them to define Muslim, and they really don't have an answer. Interestingly, according to al-Muslim and some classical Muslim jurists, "Anyone who doesn't pray 5 times a day should be killed," a conclusion based on a hadith that says that the one thing that distinguishes a Muslim from a non-Muslim is the daily prayers.

We think we're SO on the right path that anyone who disagrees with us even slightly is on the wrong. I don't like this thinking, and I thin it poses so many dangers for our society. It's exactly this perception of our religion that we're not even allowed to "criticize" (I don't call it criticism, but even if it IS criticism, so what? What's wrong with it?) our "Muslim leaders," or ulama, or those whom the majority of us consider scholars. It's not to condescend anyone; it's only to say that they don't hold the exact same value in every single Muslim's life.

I'm sorry that we don't have a better place in our society for Muslims who question out loud, and want to *understand* before they accept anything as legitimate for themselves; I'm sorry that we don't have a place in our society for Muslims who prefer science to religious beliefs and practices that do not seem rational to them; I'm sorry that we have no respect or tolerance for any Muslim who doesn't live up to *our* standards; and I'm sorry that it is *our* anti-reason, anti-thinking attitude that often leads to many Muslims' becoming apostates.

The same style of thinking we forbid on Muslims TODAY is *the* reason that Islam flourished so quickly universally. But how many Muslims pause to study Islam, Islamic history, the major Muslim icons of our glorious (yes, glorious) past to be able to respect those who either leave Islam or who are unsure about Islam but were born to Muslim families?

In my opinion, the more we suppress people's inner thoughts and the less media we provide them through which to express their beliefs openly, the easier we make it for them to just leave Islam.

So, my suggestion to you: Do NOT doubt yourself, and don't let anyone disrespect you for your beliefs. If they think they have the right to disrespect YOU, that automatically gives YOU the right to disrespect THEM as well. (NOT that I believe you should disrespect them in return, though. Just that, I believe we treat others the way we WANT them to treat us.) Besides, at least you make up your own mind and it's not made up FOR you by anyone else. How many of us get to do THAT? We say, "Hey, I CHOSE Islam myself. I studied it, and it's my CHOICE, okay?"
Well, "That's great to know. But... how many other religions did you study along with it? And by studying other religions, I don't mean going to anti-Christian websites or others that THINK they have thoroughly and impartially studied other religions and know what they're talking about. I mean studying them from *their* perspectives, using *their* sources." But nope ... we feel too inadequate to do that because if we study other people's religions from THEIR perspective, what if we are convinced and we turn to their religion and leave Islam? THIS is the fear too many of us have, unfortunately. That should prove whose imaan/faith is so low.

Anyway, take a look at this. I think you'd love it. The last lines of it are simply mind-blowing!

One Hundred and Eighty Degrees

Have you considered the possibility
that everything you believe is wrong,
not merely off a bit, but totally wrong,
nothing like things as they really are?

If you've done this, you know how durably fragile
those phantoms we hold in our heads are,
those wisps of thought that people die and kill for,
betray lovers for, give up lifelong friendships for.

If you've not done this, you probably don't understand this poem,
or think it's not even a poem, but a bit of opaque nonsense,
occupying too much of your day's time,
so you probably should stop reading it here, now.

But if you've arrived at this line,
maybe, just maybe, you're open to that possibility,
the possibility of being absolutely completely wrong,
about everything that matters.

How different the world seems then:
everyone who was your enemy is your friend,
everything you hated, you now love,
and everything you love slips through your fingers like sand.

~ by Federico Moramarco
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Roshina
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Default Re: Will the World Really End? - 03-14-2010, 03:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AFRIDI
^Damn Khor!
LOL! Whaaaat...! I get really upset when I see Muslims behaving negatively towards those who don't wanna be Muslims or who choose to leave Islam or who just don't wanna be forbidden from speaking their minds, even if they're what we'd consider "anti-Muslim" or "anti-Islamic," you know? ... It's really unhealthy for the community, I'd think.
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Roshina
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Default Re: Will the World Really End? - 03-14-2010, 03:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AFRIDI
Im just saying you summarize things so good lol.
Manana, wrora!
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFRIDI
They can debate their views here as much as they want, I am sure Admin Khan does not mind.
Yeah, he doesn't mind for sure. I think as long as no one turns to name-calling and insults and abuses, no one's expression of their views is offensive and is instead actually appreciated.
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pir_Rokhan pir_Rokhan is offline
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Default Re: Will the World Really End? - 03-14-2010, 07:10 AM

I appreciate the inputs of all the members.

I would like to opine that the only logical way for considering any point of view is a skeptic approach towards it.We should neither accept nor reject a point of view if it is not supported by sufficient arguments.

The rejection of a point of view should always be the rejection of the arguments for that point of view while the acceptance of a point of view is the acceptance of the arguments for that point of view.This has been the principle of all those societies which have evolved from primitive to modern.

You can never progress and evolve to a higher level of civilisation if you believe in something just because your parents or ancestors used to believe in it.It is better to be a non believer with arguments than to be a believer without arguments.

Pukhtuns are accomodating but free people.We do not hate anyone due to one's religion ,race ,langauge , color or creed.We refuse to accept the authority of anyone who wants to impose his or her views on us without arguments and just by force.
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