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Default 10-07-2017, 01:19 AM

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Originally Posted by maneatinglizard View Post
Because eastern Punjab was mostly non-Muslim (and as Friends of Baloch points out, the province was evenly split between Muslim and kaffir, so either country getting all of it would cause problems), and there were a ton of loyal slaves to the British among the Sikhs as well (I believe the biggest population in the British Indian army were Muslim Punjabis followed by Sikh Punjabis). Also, the British leadership were treacherous, spiteful s c u m that probably delighted in all the chaos and death they had to have known was coming with the partition and independence. I find it impossible to believe that they actually thought East and West Pakistan would actually work out, among other ridiculousness in the entire plan.

And I think you're underestimating just how Punjabi-dominated Pakistan was. Western Pakistan was over 61% Punjabi in the first census. There's no way the British didn't realize that the country would be completely Punjabi-centric with such a demographic discrepancy, especially given that the western provinces weren't integrated into the Indian mainstream, and wanted independence. Even if the British weren't trying to reward Punjab, they certainly did want to punish and humiliate the Pashtuns by putting them under the control of a race of people they've historically disdained. This is readily evident by the fact that they ignored the Pashtun desire for independence, and the fact that they accepted the farce of a vote that occurred in KP after Khudai Khidmatgar boycotted the election. Pashtuns were forced into Punjabi domination by the votes of the non-Pashtun population of KP that Pashtuns saw as their subordinates, and I'm sure the British were laughing at this one last middle finger to the people that gave them so much trouble.
You're first paragraph makes sense but not the second.
Pakistan was not Punjabi-dominated at its inception. If anything it was dominated by Urdu-speakers. Bengalis were the largest ethnic group and many of Pakistan's early leaders(such as Iskandar Mirza, the first president of Pakistan) were Bengali.

It seems you have a very distorted picture of what NWFP was actually like pre-partition. The sad fact is that NWFP(but not FATA, Swat, Dir, and Balochistan) was actually pretty well-integrated into India by the time of Partition. This was partly because this region had been separated from Afghanistan for over a hundred years and during that period had been more or less been incorporated into various Indian polities.The districts which would go on to comprise NWFP was part of Punjab for sixty years. Khudai Khidmatgar are actually partly to blame for this as they allied with the Indian congress which pushed Pashtuns of settled districts closer to India. And also there was no real movement for a separate state for Pashtuns. Bacha Khan actually supported United India and the idea of "Pathanistan" only came to his mind when his Indian nationalist project failed; But it was too late by that time. As for a desire to join Afghanistan, that was(and even now is) almost non-existent. TBH I'm not sure why this is but I think it has to do with the aforementioned integration with India. I agree though that the referendum was handled terribly and we should have been given more options.
As for FATA, the process by which it joined Pakistan was actually pretty legitimate compared to NWFP. The Tribes held a Loya Jirga and decided to join Pakistan. TBH with FATA I really don't understand why they didn't opt to join Afghanistan. Unlike NWFP the people there weren't at all integrated into India and maintained strong links with Afghanistan(FATA is still like this for the most part). I think they might have been afraid that the Muhammadzais would impinge on their autonomy. @Samandri can enlighten us on this.

Swat and Dir, like other princely states, became part of Pakistan because their rulers chose to, don't know why they didn't choose to stay independent.

I don't know much about how the Chief Commisioner's province of Balochistan became part of Pakistan and what their other options were.


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majority of Hilly Rajputs are the product of these cross breeding and want to disassociate with their past. rajputs with rajwadi surnames consider themeselves superior but those native kings who look darker gets mocked as "gola" (mix breed, son of rakhile) so they actually invite light skinned rajputs and kshatriya tribes from Jammu region such as jamwals to sleep with their women so that their wives can give birth to pure white looking Native Child.

Last edited by Traveller; 10-07-2017 at 01:34 AM.
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Default 10-07-2017, 02:23 AM

Each stone, tree , garden , hill , thala, mud house and sangar of Afghanistan (Pashtunkhwa or Roh) was worth defending from invaders. Pashtuns were patriots in the truest sense of the word. Our old poetry says it all. If the argument is that invaders were not interested in conquest of Afghanistan as it was not rich like India, then same can be said about largely barren and dry Central Asia and Persia. Afghans/Pashtuns had various sources of income and large revenue could be collected from them by taxing them. They were cultivating lands and had cattle. The had monopoly in horse trade between Central Asia and India. They had artisan classes in every village. Nomad as well as non-nomad Afghans/Pashtuns had trading caravans moving between Central Asia and India. As mercenary soldiers they were bringing revenues to their homes. Kabul subah of Mughal empire (which covered big portion of Pakhtunkhwa) was always bankrupt because its Afghan inhabitants were not paying any taxes and a very large army had to be stationed there because it was their frontier. Instead the local Pashtun maliks were getting paid from Mughal treasury to earn their cooperation and to ensure their safe passage.

You see Mughal badshah Babur plundering dry "useless" region like Kohat. Now it is said Babur conquered and subjugated Afghanistan and Afghans respectively. If he had conquered and subdued Afghanistan, he did not need to attack and loot people of his kingdom. Babur see a caravan of a Lohani Pashtun in Gomal (KP) , he not only loots the caravan but beheads its chieftain for no reason whatsoever. If he really was the ruler of Pakhtunkhwa and Pakhtuns were his subjects, he would not have been killing and looting merchants of the region. He was attacking Pashtuns because they were not his subjugates. Afghanistan (Pakhtunkhwa/Roh) has been invaded , occupied and ruled numerous times in history but they never allowed themselves to be subjugated into subservience, not even by their own kings. They were nominally part of Mughal and safavid empires. This set them apart from Indian. Its true that Afghanistan not graveyard of empires, a modern term coined by Americans few decades ago after collapse of Soviet Union. But it had reputation of being the land of unruly and free. 16th century source Afsana-i-Shahan describe the "Roh" (Pakhtunkhwa) as ;


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Default 10-07-2017, 03:03 AM

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Originally Posted by Traveller View Post
You're first paragraph makes sense but not the second.
Pakistan was not Punjabi-dominated at its inception. If anything it was dominated by Urdu-speakers. Bengalis were the largest ethnic group and many of Pakistan's early leaders(such as Iskandar Mirza, the first president of Pakistan) were Bengali.

It seems you have a very distorted picture of what NWFP was actually like pre-partition. The sad fact is that NWFP(but not FATA, Swat, Dir, and Balochistan) was actually pretty well-integrated into India by the time of Partition. This was partly because this region had been separated from Afghanistan for over a hundred years and during that period had been more or less been incorporated into various Indian polities.The districts which would go on to comprise NWFP was part of Punjab for sixty years. Khudai Khidmatgar are actually partly to blame for this as they allied with the Indian congress which pushed Pashtuns of settled districts closer to India. And also there was no real movement for a separate state for Pashtuns. Bacha Khan actually supported United India and the idea of "Pathanistan" only came to his mind when his Indian nationalist project failed; But it was too late by that time. As for a desire to join Afghanistan, that was(and even now is) almost non-existent. TBH I'm not sure why this is but I think it has to do with the aforementioned integration with India. I agree though that the referendum was handled terribly and we should have been given more options.
As for FATA, the process by which it joined Pakistan was actually pretty legitimate compared to NWFP. The Tribes held a Loya Jirga and decided to join Pakistan. TBH with FATA I really don't understand why they didn't opt to join Afghanistan. Unlike NWFP the people there weren't at all integrated into India and maintained strong links with Afghanistan(FATA is still like this for the most part). I think they might have been afraid that the Muhammadzais would impinge on their autonomy. @Samandri can enlighten us on this.

Swat and Dir, like other princely states, became part of Pakistan because their rulers chose to, don't know why they didn't choose to stay independent.

I don't know much about how the Chief Commisioner's province of Balochistan became part of Pakistan and what their other options were.
The Pakistani army, which has held the real power in Pakistan, has always been Punjabi dominated. The first prime minister was Punjabi. A lot of the initial strife in Pakistan was caused by Punjabi-dominated West Pakistan fearing that the East Pakistan's larger population would give them the majority of the power, and thus they repeatedly tried to find ways to keep the balance of power on the Punjabi side.

As for Bacha Khan's intentions, I think he always wanted Pashtunistan independence. I'm not sure why he didn't make the outright demand for independence until it became clear that India was paritioning, but the fact that he was buried in Jalalabad tells me that he didn't see himself as an Indian (or Pakistani of course), but rather an Afghan.

As for Swat/Dir, I think they realized they had no chance of surviving as independent states. They probably figured they'd retain their autonomy while still enjoying the benefits of being part of the "largest Muslim country in the world."
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Default 10-07-2017, 03:46 AM

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Originally Posted by maneatinglizard View Post
but the fact that he was buried in Jalalabad tells me that he didn't see himself as an Indian (or Pakistani of course), but rather an Afghan.
Juma Khan Sufi, a once close associate of Bacha Khan and Wali Khan and who was self-exile to Afghanistan in 80s, reveals that Bacha Khan's will was to be buried be in their Sardaryab markaz (Charsadda). The burial in Jalalabad was decision of his son Wali Khan and Najibullah government.



From Juma Khan Sufi's book "Faraib e nataam"
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Default 10-07-2017, 04:14 AM

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Originally Posted by Samandri View Post
Juma Khan Sufi, a once close associate of Bacha Khan and Wali Khan and who was self-exile to Afghanistan in 80s, reveals that Bacha Khan's will was to be buried be in their Sardaryab markaz (Charsadda). The burial in Jalalabad was decision of his son Wali Khan and Najibullah government.



From Juma Khan Sufi's book "Faraib e nataam"
Interesting. I hadn't heard of that. Does he know or speculate why his son made that decision?

My impression of Bacha Khan (and I think this is common among Afghan Pashtuns) was that his goal was to reunite Indian/Pakistani Pashtunistan back into Afghanistan, but a lot of that came from the symbolic decision to be buried in Afghanistan. If that wasn't his decision, it's harder for me to understand his motives.

EDIT: How reliable is this Juma Khan Sufi? I read some of tweets/articles and he comes across as one of those Pakistani nationalist types, arguing things like how Pakistan should usurp Pashtun cultural figures as their own.

Last edited by maneatinglizard; 10-07-2017 at 05:01 AM.
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Default 10-07-2017, 05:21 AM

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Originally Posted by maneatinglizard View Post
The Pakistani army, which has held the real power in Pakistan, has always been Punjabi dominated. The first prime minister was Punjabi. A lot of the initial strife in Pakistan was caused by Punjabi-dominated West Pakistan fearing that the East Pakistan's larger population would give them the majority of the power, and thus they repeatedly tried to find ways to keep the balance of power on the Punjabi side.

As for Bacha Khan's intentions, I think he always wanted Pashtunistan independence. I'm not sure why he didn't make the outright demand for independence until it became clear that India was paritioning, but the fact that he was buried in Jalalabad tells me that he didn't see himself as an Indian (or Pakistani of course), but rather an Afghan.

As for Swat/Dir, I think they realized they had no chance of surviving as independent states. They probably figured they'd retain their autonomy while still enjoying the benefits of being part of the "largest Muslim country in the world."
Dear , i am afraid you are wrong..First PM of Pakistan Liaquat Ali was not Punjabi..He was Urdu speaking ...First Pakistani national COAS , Ayub Khan was also a Hindko Speaking from Haripur...and then the second after Ayub was General Musa, a Persian speaking Mangol-Hazara...
Bacha Khan never demands accession with Afghanistan...In fact he supported Ghandi to remain in United India as you pointed out..
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Default 10-07-2017, 05:29 AM

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Originally Posted by maneatinglizard View Post
Afghan land has been conquered, yes. The US just did it in our lifetime and installed a puppet government that still rules part of the country. Anyone who denies this should visit Kabul and see how they can't enter the Green Zone because it's only for the conquerors.

Afghans, however, have not been conquered. While some number of them have accepted foreign rule throughout history (particularly those in urban areas), they have resisted and rebelled against every attempt at foreign domination.

Today we see it against the US in Afghanistan, and the Punjabis in Pakistan. The urban population may have accepted being ruled by foreigners, but rural people either get left alone or fight.

Not exactly. Some of the borders of modern Afghan territory were determined by treaties between the rulers of Afghanistan, the British, and Russia (some legitimate, some forced), but aside from the loss of the area that now makes up western Pakistan, the current borders reflect a lot of what made up the core of the Durrani Empire.

Are they great borders? No, they're mostly awful, and have split both Pashtuns and Tajiks from their brothers on the other sides of the two borders (not to mention the Uzbeks), but they were not completely decided by the British, like how Pakistan was carved out of India to reward the many Punjabis who made up the majority of Britan's Indian army for being loyal slaves to the Empire (and to punish Pashtuns for resisting colonial domination).




Pashtuns control the valuable land routes between India and the rest of Asia. That's exactly why Pashtun lands have been invaded many times throughout history. Not sure where you got your history, but the conquerors of India always had to either ally with Pashtuns, or try to pacify them.

The rest of the land may not be as valuable to a would-be conqueror, but Pashtuns also historically needed to be dealt with because they'd raid passing caravans and otherwise be a nuisance to nearby cities if they weren't.



I don't know what you mean by our language being "poor." I find the language rich and capable of a great deal of expression. Are you referring to the lack of Pashto literature? If that's the case, that's more the fault of Pashtuns than anyone else. Most of us are illiterate, and the literate ones just use Farsi (and in modern times Urdu for Pakistani Pashtuns) since it's a historical lingua franca of the region with tons of literature. At least modern Pashtuns in Afghanistan are working to expand Pashto literature, though our cultural attitude to education makes that a difficult goal.

In any case, I don't see how empires conquering us or not has to do with our language.



The preaching of the Gospels is largely in conformance to Islamic doctrine. The Jesus of the Bible believed in and preached for only One God, didn't reject the laws of previous Prophets, told of a coming being to follow him, etc. The wacky Christian beliefs found in the Bible and among Christians are the work of later interpreters. Even though the Bible is not authentic, still it would not be inaccurate to claim that Biblical Jesus' teachings were largely Islamic in nature. Of course, they are not referred to explicitly as Islam, as Islam is an Arabic word, and the Bible was originally a Greek work based on the non-Arabic language of Jesus/`Isa (Alayhi Salam).

Furthermore, since everyone involved in this discussion is Muslim, I don't really see the issue with presenting Islamic beliefs matter-of-factly.



lol come on man. You could claim any land in the world is useless if you ignore its strategic features. Pashtun mountains are rugged lands that aren't easily cultivatable like most of India, sure. But historically people didn't have a choice but to deal with Pashtuns if they wanted access to the goods of India.
You need to prove that Afghasn have never been conquered, brother.

Just because USA has installed a pro-American regime in Kabul it doesn't mean Afghanistan is a puppet state. USA also after the nazis and japs being defeated installed a pro-america government but do you seriously that modern Japan and Germany are puppet states? HELL NO. The way American imperialism works is different and its by far the smartest and most sophisticated imperialism ever created.

Nationalism is a Western phenomena that didn't exist in the Islamic world before colonialism. Most of the people identity was limited to religious and ethnic affiliation not nationalist. So are nation-states: imposed by the West. You guys are praising your own chains.

Gospel and Quran have different doctrines and dogmas. They have many things in common but in general Islam is closer to Judaism than to Chrsitanism. Christianism preaches passivity and servitude, while Islam preaches revolution and activism (jihad!). I prefer Islamic values honestly speaking. But claiming that Jesus preached Islamic doctrines makes absolutely no sense dude.

I dint ignore your mountains. I said that mountain passes controlled by Pashtuns are strategically importante. Actually are very important. But the rest of your mountains? Not much. No natural resources, no large cities, no nothing.

I didn't mean to bring your language down. I apologize for that.


"For thirty years, I endured much pain and strife,
I awaken the Ajam by this Persian [language]. "

-Ferdowsi.
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Default 10-07-2017, 11:37 PM

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Originally Posted by GuruZai View Post
Afghanistan is called Graveyard of the empires for a reason. we are the only race in the world who have kicked buts of invading Greeks, Persian, soviets and now Americans.

we Pashtuns are born as free men and we will die as a free men.
Guru-zai is a troll account with fake identity , either Indian or Pakistani (defence.pk). Check his other posts.
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