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ذو الفقار ذو الفقار is offline
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Default 10-09-2017, 03:44 AM

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Originally Posted by maneatinglizard View Post
Magic is clearly mentioned in the Quran. I don't know how you can deny it when its pretty clearly and unambiguously referred to in the Quran (and Sahih Hadith).

Laat, Manaat, Uzza, Baal are mentioned in the Holy Quraan too. Should I believe in them also? (God forbid)
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Default 10-09-2017, 03:48 AM

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Originally Posted by marwat View Post
is the conversion from qadiyani to mainstream sunni widespread? how the decision went with your family. ahle hadith and wahabi have the same belief too.


Yes there is a huge exodus away from the Qadiani jamaat toward mainstream Sunni Islam. I was part of that exodus. My family is fairly irreligious and donít care what sect anyone belongs to as long as they are basically Muslim. Most of my family have left Qadiani jamaat, in fact most of them left before I did (but that was because they got intermarried with Sunnis so their conversions were mostly due to social pressure but mine was genuine)

Salafis or Ahle Hadith do have some similar beliefs as us about not worshiping the deceased, but they also differ with us on many critical issues, such as magic, Ta'widh, and believing that Prophets are alive in their graves, and that the punishment of the grave is literally inside the earthen burial plot
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Default 10-09-2017, 04:09 AM

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Originally Posted by ذو الفقار View Post


Yes there is a huge exodus away from the Qadiani jamaat toward mainstream Sunni Islam. I was part of that exodus. My family is fairly irreligious and donít care what sect anyone belongs to as long as they are basically Muslim. Most of my family have left Qadiani jamaat, in fact most of them left before I did (but that was because they got intermarried with Sunnis so their conversions were mostly due to social pressure but mine was genuine)

Salafis or Ahle Hadith do have some similar beliefs as us about not worshiping the deceased, but they also differ with us on many critical issues, such as magic, Ta'widh, and believing that Prophets are alive in their graves, and that the punishment of the grave is literally inside the earthen burial plot
how does it matter whether punishment of the grave is literally inside the earth or in some other dimension, or whether prophets are alive in their graves or not. one simple way to know is to dug their graves, but if it would mean disrespect, they how about saying that we are uncertain about the matter, rather than making sects over these small issues, this does not affect our lives anyway neither are these our islamic obligations to know the uncertain.
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Default 10-09-2017, 04:20 AM

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how does it matter whether punishment of the grave is literally inside the earth or in some other dimension, or whether prophets are alive in their graves or not. one simple way to know is to dug their graves, but if it would mean disrespect, they how about saying that we are uncertain about the matter, rather than making sects over these small issues, this does not affect our lives anyway neither are these our islamic obligations to know the uncertain.

If the Prophets are alive in their graves, it means they are alive in this world, as the graves are inside this world. If someone is alive in this world it means they are not deceased. The Holy Quraan very much emphasizes that the Prophet Sallallahu alaihi wasallam will die like all other mortals, and that once Allah takes a soul at death He withholds it from ever coming back into this world.

You say that these are small issues, but these small issues are the basis for the widespread shirk and grave worship among our people. When people believe that someone is alive in the grave they will go to that grave and start talking to him. Next they will believe the inmate of the grave can hear them because he is living inside the grave. There is now this strange belief of an entire underground where everyone is living buried beneath the Earth! Therefore, in order to cut the very roots of this shirk and superstition of grave worship Allah Most High has announced that after death the soul is taken away and never comes back to this temporal world, the deceased cannot hear, and all the Prophets have died. End of story.

If you dig up any grave all you will find are bones and dust. Holy Quran and Sunna teach this reality to, which is in fact an observable reality, not something from the unseen or uncertain. So how can it be said that mere fossilized bones and decomposed corpses are living? It is just as irrational as praying to a statue made of bronze or stone thinking it can hear you. Lifeless inanimate object cannot hear you just as lifeless dead bones cannot hear you. Idolatry is the most absurd thing

I mean just think for one moment. If the Prophet Sallallahu alaihi wasallam is alive in the grave, did the Sahaba bury a living breathing person (God forbid)?

Last edited by ذو الفقار; 10-09-2017 at 04:25 AM.
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Default 10-09-2017, 05:05 AM

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Originally Posted by ذو الفقار View Post

If the Prophets are alive in their graves, it means they are alive in this world, as the graves are inside this world. If someone is alive in this world it means they are not deceased. The Holy Quraan very much emphasizes that the Prophet Sallallahu alaihi wasallam will die like all other mortals, and that once Allah takes a soul at death He withholds it from ever coming back into this world.

You say that these are small issues, but these small issues are the basis for the widespread shirk and grave worship among our people. When people believe that someone is alive in the grave they will go to that grave and start talking to him. Next they will believe the inmate of the grave can hear them because he is living inside the grave. There is now this strange belief of an entire underground where everyone is living buried beneath the Earth! Therefore, in order to cut the very roots of this shirk and superstition of grave worship Allah Most High has announced that after death the soul is taken away and never comes back to this temporal world, the deceased cannot hear, and all the Prophets have died. End of story.

If you dig up any grave all you will find are bones and dust. Holy Quran and Sunna teach this reality to, which is in fact an observable reality, not something from the unseen or uncertain. So how can it be said that mere fossilized bones and decomposed corpses are living? It is just as irrational as praying to a statue made of bronze or stone thinking it can hear you. Lifeless inanimate object cannot hear you just as lifeless dead bones cannot hear you. Idolatry is the most absurd thing

I mean just think for one moment. If the Prophet Sallallahu alaihi wasallam is alive in the grave, did the Sahaba bury a living breathing person (God forbid)?

First of all I am sunni deobandi, and I share your views regarding someone is alive or dead in a grave, at first I though that this does not affect our lives whivh side we believe but as you have pointed out correctly, I agree. But there are other issues which does not for example the green turban sect believe that Muhammad PBUH was made of nour, light and was not earthly like other human being. Does this affect us. We are not to be judged afterlife whether we have correctly find out or not.
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Default 10-09-2017, 05:39 AM

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First of all I am sunni deobandi, and I share your views regarding someone is alive or dead in a grave, at first I though that this does not affect our lives whivh side we believe but as you have pointed out correctly, I agree. But there are other issues which does not for example the green turban sect believe that Muhammad PBUH was made of nour, light and was not earthly like other human being. Does this affect us. We are not to be judged afterlife whether we have correctly find out or not.

I don't consider the green turbans to be true Muslims. They are mushrikin in our view. We don't even eat their Zabiha. They believe many other things not just that Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم is Noor, they also believe he is Mukhtaar-e-Kull (omnipotent), Haadir and Naadir (omnipresent), aalim-ul-Ghaib (omniscient). They supplicate to the deceased and are steeped in idolatry.
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Default 10-09-2017, 02:23 PM

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Originally Posted by marwat View Post
First of all I am sunni deobandi, and I share your views regarding someone is alive or dead in a grave, at first I though that this does not affect our lives whivh side we believe but as you have pointed out correctly, I agree. But there are other issues which does not for example the green turban sect believe that Muhammad PBUH was made of nour, light and was not earthly like other human being. Does this affect us. We are not to be judged afterlife whether we have correctly find out or not.
The official Deobandi position is that Prophets are alive in their graves.The Panjpiris are an off shoot who believe the opposite , thats why mainstream Deobandis consider them to be a separate sect.
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Default 10-09-2017, 10:32 PM

I am a Muslim(i don't believe in Sects, my Family never taught any of the children about sects)... I am a bit strict when it comes to Hadith.
I agree with most of what you say, esp. The Grave part!
But I beg to differ with you on Magic. It is real and it exists.

P.S. In Turkiye, all Turks are Hanfi Muslims. Most of them believe one thing about Saints, it is that they are Shaheed, and since Quran says that 'Shaheed are not dead', they take it literally i.e. (According to my Turk friend)'it is ok to ask the saint for *something*'
Had a very lengthy argument with him, which ended up in me talking to a wall. Like really can't they see the shirk?
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Default 10-10-2017, 02:54 AM

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Originally Posted by salman47 View Post
I am a Muslim(i don't believe in Sects, my Family never taught any of the children about sects)... I am a bit strict when it comes to Hadith.
I agree with most of what you say, esp. The Grave part!
But I beg to differ with you on Magic. It is real and it exists.

P.S. In Turkiye, all Turks are Hanfi Muslims. Most of them believe one thing about Saints, it is that they are Shaheed, and since Quran says that 'Shaheed are not dead', they take it literally i.e. (According to my Turk friend)'it is ok to ask the saint for *something*'
Had a very lengthy argument with him, which ended up in me talking to a wall. Like really can't they see the shirk?

Thanks for your feedback. BTW Are you Turkish or Pashtun? In other thread you were praising Bacha Khan and whole bunch of other dudes I have no clue about.
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Default 10-10-2017, 02:32 PM

This is what I look like



As you can see I look like a Pathan but I am Punjabi and Hyderabadi. I am mistaken for being Pathan because of my appearance and style of dress, but that is because I belong to the Panjpiri / Mamati maslak.
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