Shahbaz looks pretty Pakhtun to me



as if this guy doesn't look Indic, he looks like an old Indian pahlawan

or a tanned Super Mario

You cant discuss just parts of history. Dost Mohammads son Wazir Akbar Khan made many campaigns into KP to try to wrestle it from the Brits with no success because of no local support. He succeeded in Afghanistan but failed in KP. Dont forget that the Brits went all the way to Kabul. Was the land between Peshewar and Kabul sold to the brits as well. If so then we were all sold.

If you beleive that KP pashtuns have been sold twice by the Afghan Royals, let us not lose count of how many times Islamabad sold them. It is the KP pashtuns themselves that are being used as cannon fodder for the ends of Islamabad means.

If your talking about Karzai or Toramana mindset people or even the Zardaris of the world, then they do not have well wishers. We are talking about theory here. South Asia has always been invaded by Central Asians, it is a natural course for central asians to go south towards the Indian Ocean for nothing more than survival. Ever since the Brits the South Asians have used Afghanistan as the buffer or the "Great Wall" if you want to use the Chinese version of its buffer between them and their northern neighbors who always invaded them. This "Great Wall" as a defense is an ends to their means. Who has suffered? Them or us, whose land is burning? Their or ours, whose mouths are boots being shoved into? Theirs or ours.

KP Pahstuns are naive to think they are better off with Islamabad. Islamabad is the obsticle of uniting this vast land of south and central asia into one unit. Islamabad was created by the Brits for this very purpose. Afghans or any other Central Asians will never stop eyeing the Indian Ocean for as long as it is. It is naive for south Asians to think that central asians would sit still and slowly starve when vast riches(meaning the unity of south and central asia) are an arms reach away. The fire has been burning in Afghanistan and the Pakistanis were naive to think that it will not spread to them. KP pashtuns ignorance is an obsticle of not only to the well being of Central Asians but also to the well being of South Asians because it is their ignorance that makes an obsticle like Islamabad exist.

I dont know why you are mentioning Salah as if people like him have any real power in Afghanistan. The Salehs of Afghanistan are on the verge of extinction. The only reason he even exists is because the US makes it so. Do you really think an Afghan would take Salehs side over a Yusephzai from Swat. If so then why are the Afghans launching attacks from Swat and hitting the Salehs.

Salamoona Khushal,

Regarding the British invading into Kabul and Kandahar, I think the difference is the Sikh wave. The official acceptance of the Sikh inland into Peshawar and onward almost into Afghanistan (where they were stopped) was via Sultan Muhammad taking their side; he was the appointed Sardar. He and his brothers were forcibly implanted into the region as overlords over other local Pashtuns. They did a lot of damage to local tribal pedigrees/leaders and killed many to cement their role. So the issue is that the very desecendents of Sultan Muhammad Telai would eventually sit on the Kabul throne. Permitting the Sikhs to get a foot hold into KP with his own treasure and lashkaar was a very bad move on his part.

I agree with you and Shadowgoverner about the only legitimate and real cross border movement being what you noted. However, a crew right here on PF views that as a Pakistani organized movement. So the issue can sort of be summarzied in personifications of movements by 4 stereotypical people:

Karzai: Represents the Afghan Expatriot emigre elites... ---> willing to work with Saleh and currently in power. Only fired Saleh after he was convinced his life was endangered.

Mullah Omar: Represents the insurgency ---> viewed by ANP/Expatriots as an extension of Pakistani policy. Afghan launching from Swat as per your commentary above are classified into this category by "Karzai" group and ANP/PMAP.

Mellat Groupies: Different than ANP, not as into communism and marxism, more into Pashtun dominance, but still a faction of expatriot lineage.

AsfandyaarA/Achekzai: Supports Karzai groupies and has similar view of the Mullah Omar group. Basically ANPiites.

Saleh would not be powerful in isolation, but per his independent Bonn meetings with Congressional leaders, to offer his group's services to fight the Taliban, he is jockying and receiving US support making him someone to be thought about.

So as I noted, the question remains, what would the procedure for reunification be, and under what guise? Would it be under a Karzai government? Would it be under NATO auspices? NATO has done little to gaurantee the safety of Southern Afghans when the ANA's other ethnic group soldiers are utilized in raids in homes. In fact, they use this to their advantage at times to promote fierce subjugation and allow the ANA to get its hands bloody with its own country mens/womens blood.

Mostafa asked a series of questions about whether Koreans of Germans in their divided eras would be given the same discussion by me. I would say that the comparisons are are entirely different situations. East and West Germany were each openly occupied territories with American and Russian forces acting as a base implanted occupying force. The Eastern Germans may have viewed the Soviets as outsider occupants; and perhaps some West Germans may have viewed the Americans in the same way. The KP rural and urban masses on the other hand, contribute soldiers to the Pakistani military and citizenry to the Pakistani government. The other issue with the Korea comparison is he does not delineate who would sweep over who... would it be Southern Koreans "freeing" North Korea or vice versa? I think that South Koreans would have a very different view of what it would mean to be ruled by North Korea, and perhaps vice versa... so yes, the Koreans do have things to consider in regard to how reunification would and should occur per their own gains and advantages on each side.

I agree conquerers have come from Central Asia, but buffer states have also existed in the Mughal era and before.

So as noted, I still think that the breakdown would be as follows regarding reunification:

1) Majority of KP folks are simple people who do not care about such things are are just living their lives. They are not hyper patriots either way but can be become so if they feel threatened.

2) Majority would be fine under a state that does perserve their culture/way of life/language/basic social rights as long as it does not mean trading one master for another coupled to an even worse situation (their current reasonable social stability fracturing and melding into that of a war torn country) ---> Zardari for Hamid Zardarzai and waltzing haphazardly into an even more corrupt and deadly system. This is what some PFers are clamoring for. They think that if Pakistan were to fracture, Zardarzai would snatch up KP and everyone would have a love fest and suddenly Pashtunify loya Afghanistan with ease with NATO clapping its hands and turning us into a super power. If that is not akin to a fundamentalist religious belief system, then I dont know what is.

As I said, even in the era of Timur Shah, Timur Shah undid his father's gains and taxed Peshawar as if it were conquered territory... the response was an attempt on his life by a Khalil tribal leader at Bala Hissar fort. Sultan Muhammad Telai's moves only further fractured Pashtun unity.

3) All together under a large block state as you mentioned. The issue here is that you have your Toramanas, Havi Sultans, Oshos, ANPiites clamoring that this is a Pan Islamist conspiracy.

Regarding Islamabad being worse than being under Kabul government, implicity yes.. explicitly perhaps not. The slow erosion of the Pashto language, culture, and the lack of respect for the province is clear to all. Explicitly, except in Karachi there is not an ethnic militia yet equivalent to that of the Northern Alliance (except perhaps the Pakistani Army itself but that has a large Pashtun contingent in it). One Afghan government official told me that the durand line issue also worked to their advantage as one way governments maintain their semblence of being representative is to focus their people on outside problems as opposed to inner problems. Karzai has attempted this many times. When he comes under the magnifying glass, he clearly diverts to a discussion about Pakistan... so the utilization of a buffer state works both ways. Pakistan uses its status to keep its people in constant paranoia as well.

So once again, I think a vast majority would side with a fair minded Khushalian model, but with the current Karzai government in power, reprimanding the KP Pashtuns appears a little short sighted.

Really the only one who makes the most sense is Shadow governor.

They dont understand that he is not advocating a UN backed Karzai/Sherzai ruling over them... but rather he is advocating a completely larger and more autonomous whole without anyone answering to Zardari in Islamabad or Zardarzai in Kabul.

That is why the language has to be reframed... it looks foolish when Karzai affiliates and admirers are telling patriotic paks that they are slaves. Its like two slaves telling eachother off.

Exactly, DaMalakandGhar ( a.k.a toramana the racist ), try to say that pashtuns are Very different to the indics, but this is just impossible, for geographical and historical reasons.

i think its important to note that abdur rahman khan didn't really have any control of the land beyond the borders of modern day afghanistan to begin with before signing the treaty. had he felt that the pashtuns of that region were favorable to being absorbed into his kingdom, he probably wouldn't of signed the papers. lets not forget that this was also before our modern day pashtun nationalism, there was hardly any ethnic solidarity back then.

also, something of interest is that khan mentions in his autobiography that the british wanted to make kandahar into its own separate country/kingdom from kabul. he says something along the lines of kandahar being the heart of the country or something like that, its been a while since ive read the book.

interesting book if you can find it.

actually, just found it after a quick google search

http://ia600407.us.archive.org/7/ite...01abdauoft.pdf

ziiiiiiiiiiin ive been looking for this, for a minute now

Thank you Randolph. This will make for interesting reading.

I like geopolitical theorizing. should do more.