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Iblis_Efreetzai Iblis_Efreetzai is online now
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Default 12-03-2017, 02:56 PM

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Originally Posted by Firdousi View Post
Iranian hatred toward Arabs and other non Iranic people such as Turks goes back to many centuries ago. I mean if you read Shahnameh its a pure nationalist book. Its actually 100% anti-Turkic.

But all these nationalist/religious quarrels were gone after were gone in the post-colonialist and cold war era. There was a raise in ethnic-politics in the 70th decade and especially after the end of the cold war. Identity politics has filled the vacuum left by ideology politics. And here we are now, dude.
See, that's what I mean:. Historically, why would the common Iranian/Persian even care? These are not concerns of common people. These are concerns of social elites who have a certain power structure. The current context of social engineering is to galvanize the common person to serve the interests of the elite. Exploiting patriotism to manipulate people into Hardline nationalism. Historically, these embitterments were reserved for people who lost power to the aforementioned groups. Be they Turks or Arabs or even Pashtuns (Hotaks uprooted the Safavids even if only briefly).


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don’t try to be smart.

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Default 12-04-2017, 06:25 AM

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See, that's what I mean:. Historically, why would the common Iranian/Persian even care? These are not concerns of common people. These are concerns of social elites who have a certain power structure. The current context of social engineering is to galvanize the common person to serve the interests of the elite. Exploiting patriotism to manipulate people into Hardline nationalism. Historically, these embitterments were reserved for people who lost power to the aforementioned groups. Be they Turks or Arabs or even Pashtuns (Hotaks uprooted the Safavids even if only briefly).
Unfortunately it seems that human beings are by nature like this. Egalitariasm is great but deep down we all know that human beings are not equal. Some human beings are strong and smart, and other human beings are s-tupid and weak. Strong and smart will always take advantage of the s-tupid and weak.

You see man, now that Pashtun nationalism has been defeated and its almost gone there is a raise of non-Pashtun nationalism. Tajik nationalism is especially strong these days. We will just replace one nationalism with another one. Nothing good will come out of this of course.


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I awaken the Ajam by this Persian [language]. "

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Default 12-05-2017, 08:07 AM

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Originally Posted by Firdousi View Post
Unfortunately it seems that human beings are by nature like this. Egalitariasm is great but deep down we all know that human beings are not equal. Some human beings are strong and smart, and other human beings are s-tupid and weak. Strong and smart will always take advantage of the s-tupid and weak.

You see man, now that Pashtun nationalism has been defeated and its almost gone there is a raise of non-Pashtun nationalism. Tajik nationalism is especially strong these days. We will just replace one nationalism with another one. Nothing good will come out of this of course.
Indeed, I don't think we're as egalitarian as we'd idealize otherwise, how would concepts like "Mashar" , "Sheikh", "Shah" even arise. Or even "Alpha-male".

I'm not sure of this current of Tajik-nationalism, I always thought it was just some goofy kids pn Tajikam, didn't know it was strong, however I agree Pashtun nationalism is a failed enterprise precisely because it's in conflict with most Pashtun values. Ironic. I think there is no serious Tajik Nationalist movement though. You may have Power brokers that are Tajik, but I don't think they have a special fascination for Tajik Nationalism. Other than say Latif Pedram but I haven't heard much out of him in years.


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Default 12-05-2017, 04:16 PM

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Originally Posted by Firdousi View Post
Unfortunately it seems that human beings are by nature like this. Egalitariasm is great but deep down we all know that human beings are not equal. Some human beings are strong and smart, and other human beings are s-tupid and weak. Strong and smart will always take advantage of the s-tupid and weak.

You see man, now that Pashtun nationalism has been defeated and its almost gone there is a raise of non-Pashtun nationalism. Tajik nationalism is especially strong these days. We will just replace one nationalism with another one. Nothing good will come out of this of course.
Except for some panjsheris there isn’t any Tajik nationalism.
Massoud indoctrinated more or less the panjsheris to believe that they are superior to others. Going back in time I don’t believe Pashtuns or panjsheris ever had any problem with eachother until Taliban came and Massoud got trapped in panjsher valley.

But what I see is the rising of the resentments against Pashtuns among Afghan Tajiks who live in the West. I think the reason are those bad quality tv shows from the US like Sajia show or Shafie Ayar show.

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Default 12-05-2017, 06:27 PM

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Originally Posted by Firdousi View Post
Unfortunately it seems that human beings are by nature like this. Egalitariasm is great but deep down we all know that human beings are not equal. Some human beings are strong and smart, and other human beings are s-tupid and weak. Strong and smart will always take advantage of the s-tupid and weak.

You see man, now that Pashtun nationalism has been defeated and its almost gone there is a raise of non-Pashtun nationalism. Tajik nationalism is especially strong these days. We will just replace one nationalism with another one. Nothing good will come out of this of course.
I'm not seeing how Tajik nationalism is strong. Anti-Pashtun resentment? Strong in some circles. But Tajik nationalism seems to be non-existent outside the internet, and even on the net it's basically dead (look at how long it's been since someone posted on Tajikam).

I mean, how many people are even familiar with the term, or use it to refer to themselves? Whenever I've asked an Afghan friend (non-Pashtun) if they're Tajik, they've always told me they don't know. The only thing they call themselves is "Afghan." For example, there are "Pashtun masjids" in the US, and "Afghan masjids" as well, but I've never heard of a "Tajik masjid."

Admittedly, I don't know any Tajiks that still live in Afghanistan, but I keep up with what's going on over there, and the only news I can think of that might be related to Tajik nationalism is the whole "Farsi vs Dari" debate.

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Originally Posted by Elias View Post
Except for some panjsheris there isn’t any Tajik nationalism.
Massoud indoctrinated more or less the panjsheris to believe that they are superior to others. Going back in time I don’t believe Pashtuns or panjsheris ever had any problem with eachother until Taliban came and Massoud got trapped in panjsher valley.
You're right. Funny thing is that the people from my area apparently didn't even know that Panjsheris weren't Pashtun. Even now, I know some people who have grown anti-Tajik, but they'll still say good things about Panjsheris in general.

The ethnic tension in Afghanistan today is manufactured BS.
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Default 12-05-2017, 07:12 PM

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Originally Posted by maneatinglizard View Post
You're right. Funny thing is that the people from my area apparently didn't even know that Panjsheris weren't Pashtun. Even now, I know some people who have grown anti-Tajik, but they'll still say good things about Panjsheris in general.
A lot of panjsheris are real “Kaka Adam” but their blind love for Massoud is unnecessary and dumb.

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The ethnic tension in Afghanistan today is manufactured BS.
This division between Pashtun or Tajiks exists in the media and in politics.
My father was befriended with paktiwals/khostis and he had just one Tajik friend.
My grandparents had Jaji neighbors in Kabul and they lived side by side like relatives and were protecting eachother from thieves and kidnappers when “mujahideen” overran Kabul.
You’re a Jaji you said once? Is your family from Kabul or Paktia/Khost?
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Default 12-05-2017, 08:12 PM

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Originally Posted by Elias View Post
A lot of panjsheris are real “Kaka Adam” but their blind love for Massoud is unnecessary and dumb.


This division between Pashtun or Tajiks exists in the media and in politics.
My father was befriended with paktiwals/khostis and he had just one Tajik friend.
My grandparents had Jaji neighbors in Kabul and they lived side by side like relatives and were protecting eachother from thieves and kidnappers when “mujahideen” overran Kabul.
You’re a Jaji you said once? Is your family from Kabul or Paktia/Khost?
My family is from Zazi/Jaji (in Paktia, not Zazi Maidan), but my grandfather and his brothers all moved to Kabul and had a home there. They left around the time the Russian occupation started though.

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Default 12-06-2017, 04:04 PM

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Originally Posted by Elias View Post
Except for some panjsheris there isn’t any Tajik nationalism.
Massoud indoctrinated more or less the panjsheris to believe that they are superior to others. Going back in time I don’t believe Pashtuns or panjsheris ever had any problem with eachother until Taliban came and Massoud got trapped in panjsher valley.

But what I see is the rising of the resentments against Pashtuns among Afghan Tajiks who live in the West. I think the reason are those bad quality tv shows from the US like Sajia show or Shafie Ayar show.
Panjshiris are not tajik nationalists, they are just proud of their panjshiriness which is the outcome from Masoud's fame. There are very few Tajiks in the West and in Afghanistan that would like to create a nationalistic narrative, as Iblis have already stated, to serve the interests of the elites.
Tajik nationalism wouldn't work since they need pashtun cooperation to be viable in the region. The current Tajik power in Afghanistan strictly comes from US support.

Last edited by khushal; 12-16-2017 at 02:03 AM.
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Default 12-07-2017, 08:53 AM

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Originally Posted by Iblis_Efreetzai View Post
Indeed, I don't think we're as egalitarian as we'd idealize otherwise, how would concepts like "Mashar" , "Sheikh", "Shah" even arise. Or even "Alpha-male".

I'm not sure of this current of Tajik-nationalism, I always thought it was just some goofy kids pn Tajikam, didn't know it was strong, however I agree Pashtun nationalism is a failed enterprise precisely because it's in conflict with most Pashtun values. Ironic. I think there is no serious Tajik Nationalist movement though. You may have Power brokers that are Tajik, but I don't think they have a special fascination for Tajik Nationalism. Other than say Latif Pedram but I haven't heard much out of him in years.
Thats what I used to believe, that Tajik nationalism is nothing but an online phenomena. But there is a growing hatred and frustration against Pashtuns among Tajiks. This is actually something recent. Its pretty well known that Uzbeks and Hazaras hate Pashtuns, but anti-Pashtun hatred among Tajiks was almost inexistent. Now I do feel that this resentment is boosting and fueling Tajik nationalism. Also some neighboring countries and some powerful figures in Afghanistan are playing the ethnic card in order to advance their own agenda.

I don't know to which degree and it might be something not very serious after all most of Tajiks are Muslims and their religious affiliation beats their ethnic affiliation but nothing good can come out of this.


"For thirty years, I endured much pain and strife,
I awaken the Ajam by this Persian [language]. "

-Ferdowsi.
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Default 12-07-2017, 08:58 AM

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Originally Posted by Elias View Post
A lot of panjsheris are real “Kaka Adam” but their blind love for Massoud is unnecessary and dumb.


This division between Pashtun or Tajiks exists in the media and in politics.
My father was befriended with paktiwals/khostis and he had just one Tajik friend.
My grandparents had Jaji neighbors in Kabul and they lived side by side like relatives and were protecting eachother from thieves and kidnappers when “mujahideen” overran Kabul.
You’re a Jaji you said once? Is your family from Kabul or Paktia/Khost?
Same here. In Herat there is a huge Pashtun community. Pashtuns make up at least 25% of Herats population and i have never felt like they are aliens to us. There are people in my family who are ethnically Pashtuns and I didn't even know until recent times, when they told me about their origins.

I gotta say that language and culture do wonders. I mean most of Pashtuns in Herat are culturally and linguistically Heratis so sharing a common identity help a lot. Most of Herati "Tajiks" prefer their Pashtun Herati neighbors over their Tajik "brothers" in northern Afghanistan.


"For thirty years, I endured much pain and strife,
I awaken the Ajam by this Persian [language]. "

-Ferdowsi.
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