Originally Posted by shlombay

^Taliban was at least better then Pak army or Americans.

Neither is or was good. Period. Both are equally cruel. Like my mom tells us, "When the Taliban were here [in Swat], they did all the beheading of innocent people; now that the army is there, they're the ones doing all the beheading! What's the difference?"

Just because the Taliban, unlike the Pakistani army, don't go inside people's homes and molest and tease Pukhtun women, doesn't make then any better than the army. The Taliban have their own crimes, and the army has its own. They're often different but equally despicable.

Originally Posted by shlombay

At least they cared for our respect, crime was low, peace was in place. Now look, even in swat they have prostitutes.

Peace? Are you kiddddding me? Say that to the people of Swat - that with the Taliban, we at least had some peace! And tell me how they respond. I completely disagree.

Before I forget, lemme remind you that in Swat, as the whole world should know by now, we had perfect peace until the Taliban came to power. If we'd never had the Taliban there, we'd have had no violence whatsoever, and the army would have no excuse to be there either. You're actually denying the fact that things were perfectly all right in Swat before/until the Taliban?

If you're comparing the army and the Taliban, then, as I said in my last post, their crimes are different but still equally despicable but different. So neither is good for Pukhtuns or humanity; neither is better than the other.

Moving on to your comments ...

Originally Posted by shlombay

Taliban is not originated from Swat.

Originally Posted by shlombay

Taliban was created in Arghandab,Kandahar. Not in swat or Pakistan.

I've never said they're from Swat. The Taliban are not endemic to Swat whatsoever. They usurped power there only after they were (supposedly) kicked out of Afghanistan, a period during which the Pakistani army supported and sheltered them.

The Taliban movement in Swat began with Mullah Fazlullah, with his FM radio, which I hear is still functioning perfectly today -- which tells you something about Pakistan and its alleged war against the Taliban. The Swatis initially supported Fazlullah when he made all those promises of bringing Islam there, and only after they refused to do certain things he commanded did he start being violent. So, even in their incipience in Swat, they weren't violent... in which case we wanna beleive they weren't really "Taliban" since, today, the term Taliban is synonymous with "violent people," if you know what I mean.

Originally Posted by shlombay

Ask yourself why? There was peace. Its unfortunate that you listen to the media brainwashing you so you are unaware,

Oh, no, not you too, Shlombay! Ignorant people can make such a pathetic claim, but not you, toooo, man!
Nothing I have ever said or will ever say anywhere is what the media has said to me. I'm not into the media, and I know better than to trust anything the media tells us.

So, please, refrain from making such a claim 'cause just because I'm anti-Taliban doesn't mean I go by the media too much.

Again and again I say, let Swatis speak for themselves. Let THEM tell you what has happened to them; let THEM tell you what the Taliban did to them.

There's no doubt that the experiences of Pashtuns reigned by the Taliban outside of Swat have been extremely different. Waziristan, for instance. However, it's perhaps safe to say that the reason the Waziristanis don't always stand against the Taliban is that they know what it's like to have been destroyed by other violent beasts, like the U.S. army. In Waziristan, it has been the norm for the last several years to hear a bomb every other hour, and much of the time, it's by someone in the PK or U.S. army; in Swat, this wasn't and hasn't been a norm. So, Swatis don't know what it's like to be killed by anyone other than the Taliban (and now the PK army, although many Swatis actually support the PK army and are very loyal to Pakistan).

Originally Posted by shlombay

I will know more then you about this since I am from the city of Kandahar, compared to you who is from the west.

Yikes. Absolutely untrue. I'm from Swat, thank you My living in the U.S. doesn't take away my Pukhtun identity or my being from Swat. Even if I were born outside of Swat, my heart and mind would still be from and in Swat, so let alone having been born and raised in Swat.

And because you're from Kandahar, you know hte situation in Kandahar better; similarly, I'm from Swat, so I know the situation in Swat better. Again, the expereinces of our people aren't always the same, even if they're being ruled by the same despotic "rulers".

You're making assumptions that anyone who's anti-Taliban is brainwashed by the western media.

You're assuming I'm unaware of the history and crimes of the Taliban, and you're assuming that only because I'm anti-Taliban? Seriously? Wow.

And I might be unaware of what you call "facts," but you're certainly unaware of the reality in Swat. And here you tell me that Swat was fine under the Taliban? You're telling this to someone who's lost homes and relatives and friends in Swat by the Taliban? C'mon now.

I'm not America's slave, just so you know. But I'm not anyone else's slave, either. What I mean is if someone supports the Taliban, it doesn't mean I will, too; if they're against the Taliban, then I will be against them, too. No, I'm not stupid; I have my own mind, and I not only have the ability to reason but also know how to put that ability to good use.

And, so, I'm gonna repeat that anyone who doesn't believe that we had peace in Swat until the Taliban destroyed our lives doesn't know anything about Swat. You can't talk on Swat if you don't know anything about it; you can't talk on current circumstances in Swat if you don't know how Swat was, say, 10 or 15 years ago.

You also need to know what Swatis think about all this, and you should avoid speaking for them. And I'm currently searching for a Swati who would support the Taliban, so if you happen to find or meet anyone like this, please let me know.

Again, the experience for Swatis has been extremely different than for non-Swatis (e.g., people in Waziristan) under the Taliban. I've explained above why this has been so.

[Nadir Shah]

Originally Posted by shlombay

Taliban is not originated from Swat. Its from Kandahar, After Swat saw How Kandahar was under nice control, They adopted to Talibanism.

Ask yourself why? There was peace. Its unfortunate that you listen to the media brainwashing you so you are unaware, Ask any Kandahary if Taliban brought peace many will agree, many people have interviewed and agreed that Taliban regime was much better.

Pashto was lingua franca of Afghanistan.
Kandahar (Original capital) became the capital again.

Crime was at all time low, Poppy cultivation merely existed.

I will know more then you about this since I am from the city of Kandahar, compared to you who is from the west.


Like someone said, Monkey said monkey do. In order for you to understand the Taliban stance you have to study why Kandaharis created Taliban for what purpose they created Taliban.

Pak Govt started supporting them after N.A was being supported by India.



Taliban was created in Arghandab,Kandahar. Not in swat or Pakistan.

What stupidity!! The Taliban were not created in Kandahar. The Taliban were created in Rawalpindi by Nasirullah Babar, Gen Hamid Gul, Col Imam and Col Khwaja among others. I'll say for the umpteenth time, Taliban was a proxy militia of ISI and Pakistan Army, which they hoped to used as an outpost to the Central Asian States. Indeed, Nasirullah Babar and some high ranking Pakistani state officials led a trade convoy through Kandahar and Herat enrout Tajikistan(or some other CAS). The policy of Strategic Depth was the main reason for the emergence of the Taliban. The ISI intended to use Afghanistan as a pressure tool against India and a training centre for terrorists for the Kashmir insurgency.

And what is it with you claiming that the people of Swat adopted Talibanism? What evidence do you have of that? The Swat episode too had it's epicentre in Rawalpindi. They used the indifference of the state security apparatus to impose and unleash a reign of terror on the people of Swat. You need to ask someone who has lost relatives to the Taliban terrorists. The people of Swat never have and never will adopt any Arab/Punjab mercenary terrorist ideology.

About this notion of peace: This is an absolute delusion. As a friend of mine once said " There is a big difference between silence and peace". The Taliban massacres in the North of Afghanistan, in Mazar, Bamyan and Badghis? Was that peace? No, there was no peace in Afghanistan. The people were too terrified of the gun and DATSON (supplied from Rawalpindi) to speak for their rights or to speak against the tyranny of the Taliban.

About Pashto: The Taliban adoption of Pashto was not because of their love for Pashto. It was simply because they were Pashtuns and did not know Dari. Indeed, there was no state machinery or beaurucracy which adopted Pashto. The state of Afghanistan had practicaly ceased to exist. If you consider the fact that some renegade terrorists and extremists speaking Pashto and writing their stupid and moronic pamphlets in Pashto, adoptation of Pashto, then Thanks but no thanks, I don't want Pashto.

Kandahar was not the capital of Afghanistan. The Kabul Shura was the official government of Afghanistan. The Kandahar Shura was a behind-the -scenes play maker.

Please do not accuse the Kandaharis of creating the Taliban. Kandahar is the city of Milli Atals of Pashtuns. The *******s who sold Graan Afghanistan to Punjab and Al-Qaeda are not worthy of the name 'Kandahary'.

And there comes up in the media and the populace these mythical stories about Taliban standing up for social justice against some peadophile warlords and other un-seen vices among the Pashtun peoples. Why are other places such as Lahore and Dubai exempt of these phenomena.

Originally Posted by Nadir Shah

What stupidity!! The Taliban were not created in Kandahar. The Taliban were created in Rawalpindi by Nasirullah Babar, Gen Hamid Gul, Col Imam and Col Khwaja among others. I'll say for the umpteenth time, Taliban was a proxy militia of ISI and Pakistan Army, which they hoped to used as an outpost to the Central Asian States. Indeed, Nasirullah Babar and some high ranking Pakistani state officials led a trade convoy through Kandahar and Herat enrout Tajikistan(or some other CAS). The policy of Strategic Depth was the main reason for the emergence of the Taliban. The ISI intended to use Afghanistan as a pressure tool against India and a training centre for terrorists for the Kashmir insurgency.

And what is it with you claiming that the people of Swat adopted Talibanism? What evidence do you have of that? The Swat episode too had it's epicentre in Rawalpindi. They used the indifference of the state security apparatus to impose and unleash a reign of terror on the people of Swat. You need to ask someone who has lost relatives to the Taliban terrorists. The people of Swat never have and never will adopt any Arab/Punjab mercenary terrorist ideology.

About this notion of peace: This is an absolute delusion. As a friend of mine once said " There is a big difference between silence and peace". The Taliban massacres in the North of Afghanistan, in Mazar, Bamyan and Badghis? Was that peace? No, there was no peace in Afghanistan. The people were too terrified of the gun and DATSON (supplied from Rawalpindi) to speak for their rights or to speak against the tyranny of the Taliban.

About Pashto: The Taliban adoption of Pashto was not because of their love for Pashto. It was simply because they were Pashtuns and did not know Dari. Indeed, there was no state machinery or beaurucracy which adopted Pashto. The state of Afghanistan had practicaly ceased to exist. If you consider the fact that some renegade terrorists and extremists speaking Pashto and writing their stupid and moronic pamphlets in Pashto, adoptation of Pashto, then Thanks but no thanks, I don't want Pashto.

Kandahar was not the capital of Afghanistan. The Kabul Shura was the official government of Afghanistan. The Kandahar Shura was a behind-the -scenes play maker.

Please do not accuse the Kandaharis of creating the Taliban. Kandahar is the city of Milli Atals of Pashtuns. The *******s who sold Graan Afghanistan to Punjab and Al-Qaeda are not worthy of the name 'Kandahary'.

And there comes up in the media and the populace these mythical stories about Taliban standing up for social justice against some peadophile warlords and other un-seen vices among the Pashtun peoples. Why are other places such as Lahore and Dubai exempt of these phenomena.

Whew, Nadir! I knew I couldn't be the only sane person (joking, of course).

What a refreshing perspective! Thanks for your response; it's highly appreciated, man!

[Nadir Shah]

Originally Posted by PashtunQueen

Like I told you in another thread, The Taliban had good & bad, don;t generalize. The Taliban in Swat, TTP, Is not the same as of Afghanistan.

So you might be right that the fake Taliban destructed Swat, but obviously Pak Army did it worser. And Shlombay is right that Kandahar and Afghanistan had peace under the regime.


What you did that was wrong was you generalized about the entire Taliban without realizing some vital points, There are different branches, They were supported and still are supported for their positive intuitive ideas.


No one here supports Terrorism,, but there is no doubt that under the Taliban Afghanistan was much calmed and had peace compared to right now.


Most importantly Pashto,pashtun and Islam had its best times.

There are no good and bad Taliban. Taliban and all attached organizations are an anti-Pashtun phenomena supported by those powers who seek to exert influence and meddle in Afghanistan. They are in no way representatives of Pashtuns or Pashtun Nationalism.

Regarding peace in Afghanistan during the Taliban regime:

Let me propose a scenario to you. You are in my home. My home is burglar, dacoit, looter proof. You have absolute security from all sorts of threats you can imagine (Looters, dacoits, burglars, opium, warlords). I only demand two things in return:

1 I hold you physically chained and tied up 24/7.
2 You are not to think. You are not to use the faculties of your mind for positive thought and action. (This may not seem that big a deal to some on PF, but it is quite the biggest punishment.)
3 You are to be the property of an outsider.

Is this deal acceptable to you? Would you be in 'peace'? I don't think so. Replace yourself with Afghanistan and me with the Taliban and things will, hopefuly, become clear.

Originally Posted by Qrratugai

Neither is or was good. Period. Both are equally cruel. Like my mom tells us, "When the Taliban were here [in Swat], they did all the beheading of innocent people; now that the army is there, they're the ones doing all the beheading! What's the difference?"

Just because the Taliban, unlike the Pakistani army, don't go inside people's homes and molest and tease Pukhtun women, doesn't make then any better than the army. The Taliban have their own crimes, and the army has its own. They're often different but equally despicable.



Peace? Are you kiddddding me? Say that to the people of Swat - that with the Taliban, we at least had some peace! And tell me how they respond. I completely disagree.

Oh come on!!! just because they opposed westernism doesnt make them all bad, look at your american and canadian army bombing civialians in Afghanistan, does it make any difference than what taliban dones in SWat, Swat needed a good reform, didnt you know, it was full of *****s, pimps,dancers,mujras and pidofiles? Taliban who killed those was a god blessing but yes they did bad but you can not just blaime them, also bring your western forces into it as well, when their education teaches them not to do this but they do it on others

Originally Posted by Qrratugai

You're making assumptions that anyone who's anti-Taliban is brainwashed by the western media.

You're assuming I'm unaware of the history and crimes of the Taliban, and you're assuming that only because I'm anti-Taliban? Seriously? Wow.

And I might be unaware of what you call "facts," but you're certainly unaware of the reality in Swat. And here you tell me that Swat was fine under the Taliban? You're telling this to someone who's lost homes and relatives and friends in Swat by the Taliban? C'mon now.

I'm not America's slave, just so you know. But I'm not anyone else's slave, either. What I mean is if someone supports the Taliban, it doesn't mean I will, too; if they're against the Taliban, then I will be against them, too. No, I'm not stupid; I have my own mind, and I not only have the ability to reason but also know how to put that ability to good use.

And, so, I'm gonna repeat that anyone who doesn't believe that we had peace in Swat until the Taliban destroyed our lives doesn't know anything about Swat. You can't talk on Swat if you don't know anything about it; you can't talk on current circumstances in Swat if you don't know how Swat was, say, 10 or 15 years ago.

You also need to know what Swatis think about all this, and you should avoid speaking for them. And I'm currently searching for a Swati who would support the Taliban, so if you happen to find or meet anyone like this, please let me know.

Again, the experience for Swatis has been extremely different than for non-Swatis (e.g., people in Waziristan) under the Taliban. I've explained above why this has been so.

Yes but your being illogical here, if you can sit in the west, spread their theories about society but on the other side, these same westeners bomb afghanistan and murder innocent people, but you solely blaime Taliban for it all? Iam also sure those talibs also lost their homes in SWat and relatives, what makes you different from them eh? just becos u live in Canada, a country who is part of NATO and illegally occupying Afghanistan which is fueling the Taliban insurgentcies

[Master Khan]

How do the women understand!! lol, he just just goes "haaoo goo jd s f zaliman"
lol!!

Originally Posted by Nadir Shah

There are no good and bad Taliban. Taliban and all attached organizations are an anti-Pashtun phenomena supported by those powers who seek to exert influence and meddle in Afghanistan. They are in no way representatives of Pashtuns or Pashtun Nationalism.

Regarding peace in Afghanistan during the Taliban regime:

Let me propose a scenario to you. You are in my home. My home is burglar, dacoit, looter proof. You have absolute security from all sorts of threats you can imagine (Looters, dacoits, burglars, opium, warlords). I only demand two things in return:

1 I hold you physically chained and tied up 24/7.
2 You are not to think. You are not to use the faculties of your mind for positive thought and action. (This may not seem that big a deal to some on PF, but it is quite the biggest punishment.)
3 You are to be the property of an outsider.

Is this deal acceptable to you? Would you be in 'peace'? I don't think so. Replace yourself with Afghanistan and me with the Taliban and things will, hopefuly, become clear.

So is ANP and these Pakistani Nationalists are representatives of Pashtun Nationalism? the same guys who dance around with Mujras waving the flag of Pashtuns?